Coreeece

I was just going to leave it alone and not say anything, but since Kallend brought it up, how do you reconcile this statement with your stance on gun control. I see the parallel. My way of justifying it in my mind is simple. Sex is sex, death is death. YMMV. Everything is simple when one's appeal to bias allows them to view the world through a monochrome lens, stripping away the tint of reality. By that logic, one could say that rape is rape, survival is survival - exploitation is exploitation, protection is protection. ...but I think you're better than that. IF THERE WAS ONE POINT I'D LIKE TO GET ACROSS We shouldn't be so quick to rush into legalization at this point in time, primarily due to the rise in human trafficking - especially in this country. There seems to be a sense of apathy toward the consequences of prostitution that I feel deserve more attention. It's like "ya, just legalize it, it'll make things better" - Well that's not necessarily the case - it's not that simple. "Well then, it's a women's right - end of story! Damn the consequences, shit happens, that's just the way it is." I could be wrong - I'm just saying. I think we're better than that. I THINK THAT WE COULD AGREE We should be seeking a harmony between freedom, personal responsibility and the overall betterment of society. We need to look at the studies and examine the research. We need to look at other countries and see what's working and what's not. RIGHT NOW, IT DOESN'T SEEM TO BE WORKING IN PLACES LIKE GERMANY - sex trafficking is out of control. - 50-65% of the prostitutes are migrant workers. - many are unaware of their rights under the law. - only a handful have legal contracts that would entitle them to benefits and additional protection that creates a better working environment. - Many are reluctant to pay taxes, while the brothels and pimps still suck up the majority of profits. ...and all this was sold under the idea that legalization would just make everything better. IF WE TAKE PLACES LIKE SWEDEN We see a decrease in sex-trafficking since pimps and brothels have been criminalized and penalties against prostitutes have been minimized. Would something like this help in the U.S? - I don't know. What's most likely happening in Sweden is that prostitutes and traffickers are just moving further south in countries where there is more business for the prostitutes and less risk for the traffickers - like Germany. Never was there an answer....not without listening, without seeing - Gilmour

What part of "increased human trafficking inflows" don't you understand? Never was there an answer....not without listening, without seeing - Gilmour

I was just going to leave it alone and not say anything, but since Kallend brought it up, how do you reconcile this statement with your stance on gun control. Never was there an answer....not without listening, without seeing - Gilmour

If gun ownership was already illegal in a relatively safe country, and it was shown that decriminalization would increase the murder/crime rate, then I wouldn't be so quick to advocate for legalization. Gun control advocates have already conceded that it could take generations before we would see any positive effects of an outright ban on guns - and it might even make things worse before they got better, so it's not really a viable option given that within the last 20 years, we have already cut the gun homicide rate in half despite nearly doubling the amount of guns owned. Furthermore, I've already stated that if it can be shown that legalized prostitution would decrease human trafficking inflows and have overall net positive effect on society, then I wouldn't actively fight against legalization - so your entire premise is false. Never was there an answer....not without listening, without seeing - Gilmour

I must've stated my argument at least a half-dozen times already - that legalization increases human trafficking inflows. "The scale effect of legalizing prostitution, i.e. expansion of the market, outweighs the substitution effect, where legal sex workers are favored over illegal workers. On average, countries with legalized prostitution report a greater incidence of human trafficking inflows." If you're ignoring the evidence just because you think I'm using it shove my beliefs down your throat, then all I have to say to you is, grow up. I don't agree with homosexuality, gay marriage or abortion - but I don't see those things as having such a negative impact on society as prostitution does - and for the most part, those issues really aren't any of by business, so I've never actively went out and fought against them. When it comes to those things, I feel that I can only donate my two-cents to the formation of public opinion whereby perceptions are formed and decisions are made - and hope for the best. If you can show me that legalized prostitution on average has no effect on human trafficking - or even decreases inflows - and has an overall net positive effect on society, then I wouldn't fight against it, even if I still had moral objections to it. ...but as of now that's not the reality of the situation, so I would have no personal conflict with actively fighting the issue and being the first person in line to vote against it. Never was there an answer....not without listening, without seeing - Gilmour

...but the increase in sex-trafficking is so closely related to the expansion of the market through legalization, that the only way to disconnect yourself from that is to just ignore it. Never was there an answer....not without listening, without seeing - Gilmour

I suppose I'm having a hard time understanding why the consequences of voluntarily engaging in such risky and depraved behavior should be pawned off on even more people that will be involuntarily forced into the sex trade because of legalization, just as the empirical data strongly suggests - along with common sense and a basic understanding of supply and demand in an expanding market. In a sense, legalization is "protecting a woman from herself" at the expense of the innocent. There is certainly room for more research, but the numbers don't lie and the evidence strongly suggests the increase of human trafficking amid legalization. If the study showed that that legalization actually decreased sex-trafficking inflows, practically everyone in here would be circle-jerking each other with one hand and slapping hi-fives with the over - and anyone that ignored the data or dared to challenge it would be called delusional and a denier. As always I appreciate your honesty and ability to perceive and acknowledge angles on both sides of the issue. Never was there an answer....not without listening, without seeing - Gilmour

Clearly making it illegal to prostitute has really helped. Yes, countries that have recently criminalized prostitution have seen a decrease in human trafficking. For the most part, prostitution in the U.S has always been illegal. The evidence suggests that legalization will make the problem even worse despite the truthiness of the opposite. Never was there an answer....not without listening, without seeing - Gilmour

...but there's no money in that, and therefore doesn't increase human trafficking inflows. In fact, if all sex was free, the traffickers would be out of business. I suppose that if you want safe, legal prostitution one could just stick with good old fashioned gold-digging. The legality and demand for pornography are also driving factors of sex-trafficking. Many of these women are transferred from one strip club to the next and are pornographed for distribution on the internet. You have to understand that strip clubs, pornography, prostitution and the sex trade are all part of the same dysfunctional family - and those that support it are part of that dysfunction even if they "mean well" in their support of legalized prostitution. We all know what they say about "good intentions." Never was there an answer....not without listening, without seeing - Gilmour

Which is why the original post asked if it should be legalized AND regulated. ...and the answer should still be a resounding "NO." We still see increased human trafficking inflows even in countries where it is regulated - especially in democratic countries with higher incomes. From the study: "The type of legalization of prostitution does not matter — it only matters whether prostitution is legal or not... Legalization of prostitution itself is more important in explaining human trafficking than the type of legalization." Never was there an answer....not without listening, without seeing - Gilmour

This is misogyny. No, it's called sarcasm - but please, feel free to continue attacking me in lieu of addressing the empirical evidence that I've given you. Never was there an answer....not without listening, without seeing - Gilmour

The research that Bigun linked to from phys.org examined every major study on fish pain. Their main criticism was that "fish do not have the neuro-physiological capacity for a conscious awareness of pain. In addition, behavioural reactions by fish to seemingly painful impulses were evaluated according to human criteria and were thus misinterpreted. There is still no final proof that fish can feel pain." The article you referenced just listed a couple of opinions conflated with a study on how crayfish might experience stress. Given what I just wrote above, I'd go with phys.org Never was there an answer....not without listening, without seeing - Gilmour

Did you actually read the entire article that you linked? Yes I did, which is why in post #28 I said: "So the fact remains that tho more women and children will be forced into the sex trade because of legalization, at least they'll have a more positive experience in the wonderful world of whoredom." The positives of a "better" working environment for prostitutes is no justification for the increase in the amount of girls that will be forced into the sex trade to satisfy the demand of an expanding market due to legalization. Try again. Never was there an answer....not without listening, without seeing - Gilmour

Wow, really? That's how you justify legalizing prostitution, by comparing the rape and sexual exploitation of girls to that of nannies and maids? The biggest criminal element in that industry is human trafficking, raking in 32 billion dollars a year in the U.S alone. I've already posted links to studies comparing over 150 countries that show how legalized prostitution expands the market and increases human trafficking inflows - how do you people justify that - or do you just ignore it? Never was there an answer....not without listening, without seeing - Gilmour

Wow - Andrea Tantaros joins the fight. http://www.nytimes.com/2016/08/23/business/media/andrea-tantaros-of-fox-news-claims-retaliation-for-harassment-complaints.html?_r=0 “Fox News masquerades as a defender of traditional family values, but behind the scenes, it operates like a sex-fueled, Playboy Mansion-like cult, steeped in intimidation, indecency and misogyny” "Fox News offered to pay her a sum “in the seven figures” if she renounced claims against Mr. Ailes and others at the network, including the host Bill O’Reilly. According to the lawsuit, Ms. Tantaros said she had been subjected to unwelcome advances from Mr. O’Reilly, whom she had regarded as a friend and adviser." "Ms. Tantaros joined Fox as a contributor in 2010, and a year later was named co-host of “The Five,” which aired at 5 p.m. She said in the suit that she was repeatedly told by Fox executives that she could not wear pants on the air because “Roger wants to see your legs.” Never was there an answer....not without listening, without seeing - Gilmour

I didn't say anything about socialism - you're projecting. You've always been more fiscally conservative than I have. It was you that recently had a crisis of conscience and had to change your view on minimum wage - good for you! I don't see anything slimy about those. Never was there an answer....not without listening, without seeing - Gilmour

Nah, just like one sentence. But I'm sure your hatred is justified, of course. Your anecdotal bullshit doesn't change anything. Maybe they are just part of the 5% that like being whores. That legal protection is going to cause more women and children to be forced into the sex trade - the studies are pretty clear on that. You guys can keep attacking me all you want, but it ain't gonna change the facts of the studies that you continue to ignore. You're just too emotionally attached, so your judgement on me is of little import. Just listen to yourself - you want your prostitute friends to be protected at the expense of more innocent people being forced into the sex trade. That's not how you protect people. Never was there an answer....not without listening, without seeing - Gilmour

...I've been saying that for a long time. If only I was as pure as you. Never was there an answer....not without listening, without seeing - Gilmour

Hypocrite much? Normiss: "I was referring to bitch ex-girlfriend who was a right cunt" "I'm sorry the rude cunt disliked my companies' plan, but I LOVE it" "After a right cunt attacked me for my choices in healthcare and employment, I was pretty much over it." "They need to arrest that stupid bitch" There are just too many of your vile, curse-filled hatred posts to list - so here, knock yourself out: shit, piss, fuck, cunt, cocksucker, motherfucker, and tits The majority of your posts are just lame one-liners - so I'd question your ability to actually have a discussion before blaming me. Never was there an answer....not without listening, without seeing - Gilmour

Ya, see - now you're ignoring my post expressing that the separation of Church and State is a two-way street - just like Bill. He says he's familiar with my posting history, yet ignores my posts that are right in front of his face in this very thread, just to start shit with me - just like you. Never was there an answer....not without listening, without seeing - Gilmour

Well, of course not - they either ignore it, or are oblivious to it. The fact is that legalization expands the market and the demand for prostitutes increases. It's already been proven human trafficking inflows increase when prostitution is legalized. So the fact remains that tho more women and children will be forced into the sex trade because of legalization, at least they'll have a more positive experience in the wonderful world of whoredom - thanks to all you sick fucks that condone this shit. ...and then they have the balls to call Trump supporters a bunch of misogynists with shit for brains. According to some studies, that may only amount to about 5% of prostitutes, with 95% having stated that they wanted to "escape immediately." http://www.rapeis.org/...ostitutionfacts.html http://www.prostitutionresearch.com/...Facts%2012-21-12.pdf Never was there an answer....not without listening, without seeing - Gilmour

Ya, the estimated age of those entering prostitution is 12 - some even as young as 9 - but these people lie to themselves with delusions that legalization will end all that, just to keep their sick fantasy alive. Never was there an answer....not without listening, without seeing - Gilmour

I didn't feel the need to elaborate - that wasn't even the point I was trying to make. The reasonable people in this forum knew what I was referring to - so keep playing dumb, you're good at it. That's just a lie. I never said anything about being a victim. There is nothing to get over because I've never had a problem with the separation of Church and State. I simply don't want your slimy liberal politics polluting my faith. Never was there an answer....not without listening, without seeing - Gilmour

Way to try and pivot the thread toward your personal issues! Well played. As soon as the giraffes start consenting to being shot, trophy hunting can be discussed in the same way as legalized prostitution. Consent? The coercive nature of human trafficking is not consensual. The typical age of those entering prostitution is 12 years old - some are as young as 9. About 80% of prostitutes have been victims of rape - with some reports showing a large percentage of women being raped over 50 times per year. Prostitutes have a mortality rate that's 40 times higher than the national average. 75% of prostitutes attempt suicide - they account for 15% of completed suicides. A study found that 95% of prostitutes wanted to escape immediately. But hey, just legalize it - let's just ignore all that and focus on the devastating effects of the food chain. Shall we move on from the subject of hunting to your views on prostitution? Prostitution is a predatory sport that hunts vulnerable women. http://www.prostitutionresearch.com/Prostitution%20Quick%20Facts%2012-21-12.pdf Discussing his experience in a strip club, one man said, “This is the part of me that can still go hunting.” If people want to about bitch about trophy hunting and killing for fun, then maybe they should start a thread about trophy hunting and killing for fun rather than complaining about some girl that hunted a troublesome animal and fed it to orphans. http://www.rapeis.org/activism/prostitution/prostitutionfacts.html ...and while legal prostitution can possible improve the working conditions for many women, studies show that legalizing prostitution tends to increase human trafficking inflows more so than countries where prostitution is prohibited. https://orgs.law.harvard.edu/lids/2014/06/12/does-legalized-prostitution-increase-human-trafficking/ Never was there an answer....not without listening, without seeing - Gilmour

Way to try and pivot the thread toward your personal issues! Well played. As soon as the giraffes start consenting to being shot, trophy hunting can be discussed in the same way as legalized prostitution. Consent? The coercive nature of human trafficking is not consensual. The typical age of those entering prostitution is 12 years old - some are as young as 9. About 80% of prostitutes have been victims of rape - with some reports showing a large percentage of women being raped over 50 times per year. Prostitutes have a mortality rate that's 40 times higher than the national average. 75% of prostitutes attempt suicide - they account for 15% of completed suicides. A study found that 95% of prostitutes wanted to escape immediately. But hey, just legalize it - let's just ignore all that and focus on the devastating effects of the food chain. Never was there an answer....not without listening, without seeing - Gilmour