tikl68

Just my 2 cents. It sounds like you have a plan and thats awesome. Dont let some of the posters who are negative nancies steer you away. Elsinore or Perris are both good SoCal choices. When you have 2 options that seem equal it comes down to the little things. So here are some pro's and con's Pro; Perris has a bar on site. Con;not as social as Elsinore after jumping Perris has a pool. Local kids use it also Perris has a wind tunnel the dirt in the landing area is tough to get out of your shoes. Elsinore has a pool,not open It is smaller than Perris's pool to the public Elsinore is VERY social after It is a 5 minute walk to get a case. jumping, and the dairy accross the street has beer, cheaper than a bar. all joking aside both DZ's have capable aircraft and good instructors. It comes down to where you feel the positive vibe. Check both out and spend about an hour talking to the instructors and the locals experienced jumpers and see how it feels. Hope to see you in December. Yes Elsinore is my home DZ.

Elsinore has a program called excel camp we run once a month. It is free coaching on the fundamentals of RW, and if you have a good foundation, we can increase the technical side to challenge you and send some of our locals that have been attending theses camps and one or two of us coaches to do some 4 way and get video and a proper debrief.We also have SCSL. SCSL is a low pressure 4 way event,it is like a camp with coaching, but is conducted much like nationals, against other intermediate teams. Arizona runs a "Rookie Round up" just not sure about the frequency.

The numbers are nice in a perfect world where all the elements are in your control, but still give no credence to the argument of low collision possibility in this scenario. Most free fly jumps break off between 4500 and 5000, and when tracking can cover a good distance. If is a 4 way or more some one has no choice but to track back down jump run. I get some of what you are saying about the free fliers falling faster and there fore reaching 4500/5000 before the solo belly flier deploys, but why rely on luck and chance, why not just have the solo jumper exit after the FF and manage the risk as much as possible.

It is that important. Instead the person that opens at XX altitude giving more horizontal separation and dragging out jump run to the point where people land out or the pilot has to do a go around. So the option that my home dz chooses to not have jump run stretched out, if you want to open at 4500-5000 and above is to have you exit after the RW/FF, and IMHO communicating with anybody behind you(AFF inst,or tandem video people) about when you are deploying, or anything else out of the ordinary, is NOT a bad idea.

You SHOULD respect normal exit separation, but we all know that is not always the case. In regards to a free flier screaming by,it has nothing to do with separation or lack there of. If you open at 4500 or above and you are ahead of people that open at 3500, when the group behind you breaks of and tracks that distance can be quickly covered, and if you are not paying attention when you deploy at 4500 (which happens often) and fly UP jump run while you monkey with you slider,chest strap and anything else you do after deployment, again the "separation time" is now mitigated. In my experience(as a belly coach and LO) that low experienced solo belly jumpers usually back slide, or drift around, and they can and do find them selves under the group behind them. It is just a scenario that leaves too much to chance, and we have all seen too many close calls on friday freak out. As for the tandem im not sure if I worded it wrong but there is only ONE camera man in the scenario. I have seen video from our tandem camera fliers, and from fun jumpers, of close calls at my home DZ. It can be done but communicate and let the group behind you know, there fore they can add a little separation time and or at least be aware he might be there when you as the person in the group behind are tracking to be even more aware. Why is communicating such a big issue.

We dont force anybody to open at 3k or below. And the OP said nothing about that in his situation#1.

So I will spell it our for you. I was referring to the OP'S #1 what if. First off like oblextimm stated, communication with in a group going to altitude in the same plane is NEVER a bad thing, its actually encouraged at my home dz, and usually done in the loading area prior to loading the plane. The comment was something to the effect of telling unlicensed/student jumper to pull high(which is ok and not against our rules but usually asked to exit after the free fliers and let the people after you know), but combined with the other component of the situation he was told to follow out a RW group right after with out telling them. If he does not give enough separation time then he will be joining that groups jump with out them knowing, and that in itself is dangerous, not to mention in typical exit order it is belly fliers first then free fliers etc. So if he opens at 4500 there just might be a free flier, or a video guy for a tandem that can check his gear for him as they go screaming by that will most likely exit after him and probably deploy around 3500. Thats why!!!!!

I hear stuff like this all the time,but usually from inexperienced/low time licensed jumpers. Fortunately 99 percent of the instructors at my home dz are not wing nuts and dont dispense such nonsense. But when I do hear this i will try to tactfully add good info. to give the jumper a better understanding of the situation, and therefore make a better decision. If that does not work I have no problem asking a AFF instructor his opinion, and if that does not work, i will inform the S&TA, and that usually does it. One example, a jumper who had recently received his license(around 38 jumps) was in the loading with a group of about 12 other jumpers with a skill range from 75 jumps to 130 jumps. While I was in the loading area getting on the same plane, i watched the dirt dive and the lack of proper terminology and techniques for this soon to be zoo dive, i hinted that this might be a little above his skill level. He said so N so said i should be good. So I ask one of the AFF instructors in the loading area going up for a tandem about the situation. When he saw who it was he realized he was one of the jumpers instructors and he put a stop to the notion pretty quick.

I think the big issue is that the student is doing this with out communicating his intentions to anybody else on the plane. It is ok for a student or a licensed jumper to open at that altitude, but it should discussed before take off.

True we normally only have LO's on the week end, but if you read the OP's comment it says,"Elsinore or Perris or both on THIS WEEKEND" and Elsinore also has a skyvan, and 2 caravan, so no having to wait for 10 people to manifest in order to make it worth sending, we will send the caravan with less people needed than an Otter or a Skyvan.

Elsinore has an excellent FF/angle staff on hand. We provide LO's for both FS and FF every week end. We have bunk house for sleeping arrangements that cost 7 dollars a night, and a place if you would like to pitch a tent. The good news is they are close enough to each other you can make 2-3 jumps at one place in the morning, and drive to the other for a couple of jumps for afternoon/sunset. In my opinion our FF LO's are top notch.It is one of the reasons why flyfly camp has been held at Elsinore since 2004 if I recall, and it is home to a 3 time national FF champion.

That is the one thing I find that helps someone I am teaching, the most. To the OP, this has been discussed at least 3 times before. So check some of the older threads. I made a video that I posted and sent to some one in a PM. I still have the video if you would like it showing the technique John is referring to.

You have some good points and yes no matter how clean your pack job is as soon as it hits the wind at a buck n quarter it becomes a mess, sort of. But what the OP is concerned about is a legit concern. The D lines if not kept in the center as best as possible can POPTENTIALY get around one of the round stiffeners stitched on the stabilizer during the opening and remain hung up once it is under tension(it has happened). It is a trick to do what you are having trouble with, but just be a little creative and you should be able to find a way. I would have to watch you to be able to suggest another method. I have been a full time packer before(4 years) and also teach the packing course to aff students since 2006, and yes BASE also. When I get done rolling the tail and go to set it on the ground, I dont slam, or plop, or throw it down, because yes it can muck up your awesome flake job.

Skydive Elsinore also has one.

Here are some of my techniques. I often jump with a group that is usually 32 people and up to 50. When I am a late diver whether its out of the in lead(a skyvan) or the trail plane(an otter) they are basically the same. If I am close to the CHUNK I dont hold the dive for more than a second or two. The later I am in the line up dictates holding the dive longer, also be aware. the longer the dive the more energy you will carry, and need to pull out and start slowing down farther out. When I exit the air craft, I make sure to arch, see the base/formation. I stretch my arms straight out in front of me as I exit to stop my bottom half going over my head as I get steep, but it is only for a moment. As I feel the momentum of going over stop, I will extend my legs straight and pull my arms to my side while tilting my head up to keep traffic/formation in site. Its not a race, but i usually dont have a problem getting there when I am supposed to or a little bit early.

If your expectations are a little high, some people can be let down. It is a great activity, and one of the things I enjoy,is being off the ground, and enjoying that activity with friends. Another aspect is the people. I prefer to be around outgoing,energetic,positive people than negative people having drama. Keep that in mind.

It is good that you are being very aware under canopy, but you did answer your own question. If you had turned onto your base leg when you thought you should have, and they turned onto their base leg right after you did, while watching this,cutting your base leg short, and turning to final would have most likely put you out in front of them far enough to not be an issue as you suspected. But good job at minimizing the potential carnage.

subject to opinion.

Not sure when you will be in the area of Elsinore,and Oceanside, but Elsinore has been my home DZ for 14 years, and I was born and raised in Oceanside. So when you come to Elsinore find me and I can give some suggestions of what to do for fun while in town, or be your tour guide if you like, there is a lot to do. Tickle

I realize how fortunate i am to have had the opportunity to meet,jump with and,get guidance from him and a couple others. We still have that random wing nut that comes up and thinks the rules dont apply, or "it" will not happen to me. So we advise them and either stand by to assist when "it" does happen,or they are told "not here". If your son has ever done the Flight 1 course at Elsinore, then I have probably met him. BS

Hi Chuck. My home DZ is Elsinore. We have a few of very experienced canopy pilots that also call Elsinore home. I was also very fortunate to know Jonathon Taggle as Elsinore was also his home. I did video from the ground a couple of times for his flight 1 course and had the benefit of sitting through the debriefs. JT was very approachable and had no problems talking to some one. I was a pretty conservative pilot when it came to progression, and listened to people like JT,JC, Andy Malchiodi, etc. If you're ever in so cal stop by.

My home DZ has a different attitude on this subject. Most of the experienced/HP canopy pilots are willing to talk to younger jumpers about this topic. Having the right reasons are important, but people busting your balls for not down sizing are not "friends" in my opinion. ONE of the things that the exp. canopy pilots say is, to know WHEN to down size, you should be able to land the canopy you are currently flying, consistently in any wind condition, ie, cross wind,down wind,strong winds,and no winds. And like previously stated, do it for the right reason, being cool, or because your so called friends say you should, is definitely not a legit reason, specially with 160 jumps, and is dangerous. This is a mentality that needs to be reeled in.

Here are two I have been involved in. 1. out of an otter. 2 people sit down on the floor in the door,one facing the tail,one facing the pilot. Stay close,jumper 1 puts his legs over the top of jumper 2's thighs and puts his/her feet into jumper 2's arm pit.jumper 2 has his legs UNDER jumper 1, puts his feet into jumper 1's arm pit also. Jumper 1 grabs jumper 2's ankles and pulls them up into arm pit. Jumper 2 grabs jumper 1's main lift webbing. Use a head count and barrel role out side ways. Once out and off the hill jumper 2 releases jumper 1's main lift and grabs jumper 1's ankles and let the fun begin. 2. An 11 way chunk out of an otter, not once, not twice, but 3 times in a row in one day, and all were successful. It was with a really experienced group, hand picked for a special day of jumping for Melanie Curtis birthday. It was 5 outside, 4 inside, 2 in back row. By the last one every one was tired,especially myself and the other jumper(Ryan simpson) who were the 2 in the very back row. It got really steep and I got a cramp from arching so hard for so long, it seemed like for ever before it settled down. The whole week end is on video including the 3 11 way chunks.

Just my 2 cents. I have been a packer for 7 years 4 of them full time. Plus my almost 2000 skydives I packed for myself, and 2 summers packing tandems in Sweden, and I have never had a hard opening, nor any of my customers. I actually had some people tell me the openings were a little too slow, could I speed them up a little. I jump two completely different canopies, 1 being a triathlon 135 and the other is a crossfire 2 119. I dont double wrap my locking stowes on MY canopies. I only double wrap the locking stowes if one wrap leaves them very loose,or the owner of the rig request it. There are other things that can be done to slow an opening and several factors that can cause a quick/hard opening. Sorry you had a bad experience, glad you are ok.

I agree with Hooknswoop. I have seen and responded to injuries and fatalities. It seems to affect me the same way as when I have seen some knarly industrial accidents at work. One that sticks with me the most, my co worker got his hand sucked into the printing press we ran. I had to pull what was left of his hand out and try to cover it up and get him into the production managers vehicle. I then went back to see if I could salvage anything. Then I had to clean the press. I could not get the image of his mangled hand out of my mind for about 2 days. But with some help from friends and learning what happened, and staying busy, as time went on I saw the image less and less. Time will help.