jumpinjackflsh

I'm 48... Just got back into the sport in Oct of 2012. 116 Jumps. Definitely do not feel too old at all! As DSE stated, never too old! Amazing sport. Lew Sanborn was out at our DZ a few weeks ago. He's the first licensed skydiver in the game. Still jumping at 84+ (don't quote me, could be older, lol).

I had a conversation with a rigger at CSC recently and relayed my "distracted" story. She looked at me and said "do you need to pull your slider down?" and I smiled and said, "no I don't". On that vein, she responded, "Your flying a 190 square foot canopy, did you notice a change in performance?" Again, answer "No". I think, and please correct me if I'm wrong, if your not down in sub 100 velo land, flying an HP canopy, slider stowage is not necessarily going to improve anything about your flight characteristics... Any takers? Additionally, I started opening up my chest strap nice and wide. Again, I didn't notice any change in flight characteristics however maybe that's just because I don't have the experience to? Or is this the same situation? If both above are correct, then it's a small percentage of the flying community that benefit from either activity. True or False? Lastly, to Pops, Dave Lepka, others. Per the "lost silver handle" portion of this malfunction. If a skydiver were to look, grab red right hand, grab silver left hand, then peel/pull red, followed by pull silver, wouldn't having your hand in the silver handle help when the rig shifts from the cutaway? Aka, would that prevent the whole "lost handle" situation? Just curious as it seems to make logical sense but I don't have any practical knowledge to back it up. Thanks again all, great discussion. Jack

Thanks Pops! Dually noted. I typically scan my airspace and "Find" all known traffic immediately. Good stuff!

To the skydiver in the video and the full story and video on his website, glad you are still with us and thanks so much for taking the time to document everything! Damn, I was puckered during that video... To the OP, thanks for sharing, priceless stuff! To Pops, as is typical, thanks for the followup and I'll jump in as a young jumper (well at least experience wise) and share my story followed by answering your points. Short story, in Sebastian in February of this year I ended an amazing week jumping with just a great group of people. If you've never experienced Sebastian, get on it, you'll be glad you did... Long story short, I leave my slider open and typically just focus on flying in for landing. I got the idea to start loosening my chest strap, collapsing my slider, and tucking it behind my head then release my brakes, and set up for landing. I had been doing this, for about 10 jumps, no problem, when suddenly, my slider wouldn't stay behind my head. So, on approach, three times I don't complete all my tasks, because I'm screwing with the slider which keeps popping up. Too make matters worse? Good strong headwind. Long story short? I missed turning in on final, and ended up landing out, crosswind (damn strong winds) in the road. I managed to get banged up but nothing requiring hospitalization. Bruised ego more than anything but I can say this. It got damn hairy, damn quick, when I released the brakes, and got ZERO forward penetration into the dz. I got distracted, instead of turning in on final when I was supposed to, which was about 30 seconds prior to the shit hitting the fan. At that point I looked to my right, power lines, not happening, looked straight forward, fence and at this descent rate? I'd smack that puppy head on, NOT HAPPENING. Lastly, now at about a hundred feet I look to my left, ROAD and realize, that's the best I got.... Now, this story isn't NO WHERE near as scary as the OP however I can say, for the guy in the saddle? I was DAMN scared. I realized I had made just a couple tiny fundamental mistakes, and in a few seconds would be paying for it. Now, back to your post Pops. 2. Turning off cameras, collapsing / stowing sliders, widening chest straps, ANYTHING that keeps you from your control check, belongs at the end of the order. Is it THERE, is it Square and Steerable? As this event shows, you aren't done until that point. Had that been done immediately, the skydiver in this incident would've released his brakes at approximately 1:05 which would've given him more time to cutaway, and subsequently find his reserve handle. There was approximately forty seconds elapsed before he then collapses his slider, then releases brakes. This is significantly lower than his opening altitude. That extra time, may have made all the difference. I can't even recall, how many times I've gotten "distracted" prior to doing all control checks, etc... I can tell you about the one in Sebastian however and that could've turned out a HELL OF A LOT WORSE. 2. I'd say primary duty upon opening is verifying it's open, square, release brakes, steer right, steer left, verify flare. Of course that also includes a visual noting slider fully down, all cells inflated, lines are orderly, etc.... The funny thing is this task, can be done in thirty/forty seconds or less. If we procrastinate, and say use rear risers to point us towards the dz, etc... while we mess around with other things. We could find ourselves releasing the brakes and dealing with a mess, well below our level of comfort. Makes the hair stand up on your neck. Everything after that is gravy, none of it required to get us in safe and in one piece. I'll leave the rest answered by others Pops. I'll just say these two things hit hard for me and I'm a hundred percent committed to get the housekeeping items in the correct order and executing them flawlessly every jump. Good teaching sir, keep it up. It is all about thought process, training and execution. Jack

+1

I started to respond by posting all kinds of links here like this one.... [url]http://www.dropzone.com/safety/Canopy_Control/Downsizing_Checklist_47.html Though at 126 jumps I'm sure you've learned a lot and have spoke with your jump masters / wise ones at your dz and have already received some kind of input? In addition, this website is FULL of information regarding downsizing, too fast, and the real life results of what happens if you push past your abilities (search Sangi)... I'm looking forward to flying a faster canopy as well and enjoy that portion just as much. However, as you'll quickly learn, well, look around, the answers are there. Jack

I fly a 190 as well... If you read the threads on here at all I'd have to say, you know your profile doesn't indicate how many jumps you have etc... Which means giving input isn't easy... Even though, if you have a thousand jumps, me with my pitiful 110, I'd say, downsizing from a 190 to a 135 or even a 150 is a huge jump. All of the previous knowledge gathered by those in the support suggest downsizing in manageable increments that allow you to account for changes in flight characteristics, etc... I bought my 190 and flew it for my first licensed jump after approval from my instructors. I have to say, moving from a Manta 230 to the 190 was a hell of an eye opener and not a jump I'd make again. I survived it, and flew fine, but it took a bit to deal with the differences. Given that, again coming from a newbie perspective, why would you want to take such a big step? Who knows, you could be way more experienced then me but even so, that's a hell of a difference in wing loading... Peace, Jack P.S. My next downsize will most likely be at 200 jumps to a 170. It is conservative but I've learned enough at this stage about myself to know I'd rather eat the elephant one bite at a time... Edited to add: Fill out your profile. This will give you the best answers to questions from qualified individuals and will reduce the verbal beatings. As a skydiver you know, it's all about numbers and experience.

That, ROCKED!

+1 Those kinds of answers, to simple questions, prevent people from having honest conversations. Everything turns into "Drama Zone" and while it's mildly entertaining from time to time (their are those that ask for it) it's not necessary every damn time someone asks a question. Re jump numbers and profile? That's my number one piss off. If you've got the balls to post here, put your numbers out there as well as your IDENTITY. I always question anyone hiding behind relative anonymity. Now it's time for a commercial break from our sponsors...

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Good point Bill and thanks for all the inf you share with us. I have to add, I recently (oct last year) got back into the sport after a long layoff and only 60 jumps. I weigh 180 out the door and jump a 190 canopy. I've managed to log about 35 jumps in the last couple months and just when I started thinking hey, I might start looking for a 170? Jumped last Sunday at my DZ, no wind... I was reminded in my approaches that my chute flies damn fast into landing with no wind. Suddenly I wasn't as good as I thought. I didn't break myself but I didn't stand it up and walk it off either. Had a few slid in landings that reminded me I still have a lot to learn before I move up. I work on all my maneuvers, damn near every skydive, like to pull high and work on everything when I can. However, changing winds on approach can make the picture look significantly different. I think the one guy who posted "all four of us have broken ourselves" says it all. If your willing to play, be willing to pay. If you find yourself in a hairy situation, you'll suddenly question your aggressive canopy choice that's for damn sure. Good stuff, OP if you are still out there, don't be in any hurry, you may regret it later, or sooner and find yourself wishing you were under a little more fabric.... Blues, Jack

Thanks airtwardo, as is typical you manage to cut to the chase. I think it goes without saying every last one of us in the skydiving community is saddened by the loss of our fellow skydivers. To Tx who is obviously upset, I am also sorry for all of you at ZHills for the loss. In reference to this post and the incident I gotta say. I don't ever want to be opening at 750 ft, period. However, some years back when I took my static line course, on my third freefall off static line (was supposed to count to five) I lost altitude awareness and was tumbling. All I could think was, get stable get stable, and this was from 5500 feet. Finally I came out of the tumble and got flat, and threw out. I was under canopy at about a grand. The student rig I was jumping had an FXC. I either beat it to the punch, or it didn't fire, period. Either way, had I not thrown, chances are I'd be a dead man. Years later I came back to the sport, took AFF and got licensed. I jumped with a Vector II with a Cypres. Learned all I could about it and even knowing the "basics" every time I turned the thing on all I could think was "I don't ever want to see this damn thing go off". Given all the good input here, lessons learned, speculation kicked about, I think it's still goddamn apparent we need to get a canopy out at an acceptable altitude period. If we don't make that happen the odds are in favor we won't live past that. Given the fact that most people that have a cypress fire are going to have shitty body position, be unconscious, or any number of things I would think, even last ditch, there is a damn good chance you won't live to see another day. I came back to the sport in October of 2012 with my rig. The Cypress was out of date so I had it pulled. I know I'm likely to get beat up for saying it but I didn't feel any less safe or different than I did every time I jumped with it in place. For those that have been saved by AAD's, kudos. I'm sure you are thankful everything went the way it was supposed to when the loop was cut. I also believe the devices are necessary and can save someones butt. However, I think in so many cases where we haven't activated a canopy ourselves, by 750ft, we are throat deep in it and there's a very low chance for survival. Lastly, I've never seen a jumpers Cypres fire, and a canopy appear at 750ish and I would prefer never to do so. However, is there anyone here that has done so? Either your own or witness another and did they/you survive? I can't imagine it, makes my palms sweat thinking about it. My heart goes out to the friends and family and ZHills people surrounding this tragic loss. Jack

I bought a new suit in Sebastian in February from Chris Mr. Walczak and it's amazing. All the bells and whistles, high quality material and the sales and service Chris provided was unbelievable. Priced better than anything on the market... RE friends? I never met him prior to that trip. I can proudly list Chris as a friend now though. That's not only due to his good business practices but also due to the fact that he's one of the good guys, period. On that note? I wouldn't be surprised if he's added hundreds of friends in his short time in business. i can't say enough good about him or his products. He's won a devotee here that's for certain. Leaving off all the particulars, his stuff is top notch and priced right and he stands behind his products. As a customer, you can't ask for more. Blue Skies Chris, I'll get that order in for camera jacket/pants and can't wait for the tracking suit to be completed! Jack

+1 Well delivered sir! I'd like to add to those "systemic" issues that we also permeate the other side with the same syndrome! Aka, the most popular thing in this country is to blame Corporate American Greed for our woes when the reality is, we, our brothers, sisters, cousins, parents, etc... ARE CORPORATE AMERICA! We do the same in every facet of life though after eons of doing so we do from time to time learn our lessons. Blaming the USPA for their actions or future possible actions is hilarious considering no more than 10% of the membership even voted recently! Blame the other guy, the USPA, the FAA, etc... and sometimes? You may be right. However, don't forget, there are people working in all these different positions of service that are there to make a difference, contribute and be successful in their endeavors. Unfortunately, at every level, WE create the bureaucracy through our actions, period. Those systemic issues you speak of, never come to light because, it's so much easier to blame the pilot and move on to the next case... In essence, from Wall Street to rural America, we prove every day our instinct for survival and behavior often drive decisions that later, sometimes immediately, prove ludicrous. Well played, very well played

+ 10 This thread is the responsible for me nearly peeing my pants... Priceless

Thank you sir, Great answers. I know nothing about CReW other than the DZO's at Quantum were world class CreW dogs and I've seen it done a few times. Freaking amazing. My balls aren't that big. Re "all on you" I agree as well. I take the privilege to jump very seriously, work my ep's religiously, do my checks, etc... I will say, an RSL and AAD are definitely in my future as well however, I am admittedly happy with my current system. Re collisions, I'd say that is probably the driving factor in what will push a Cypres back into my rig. I think the cost is phenomenal considering. Hopefully other players in the market, etc... will eventually bring the price down to reasonable. However, I've had one collision, jumping with someone that was completely out of control, came right down on top of me. I didn't grey out, but it was damn scary. After that, I became very leery of what/who I jump with, etc... All good inf, highly appreciated. Jack

Airtwardo, You always manage to answer the question that is on my mind before I ask it. I just got back into the sport in late 2012 and had my Vector II checked for airworthiness, reserve repack, and main re-lined. I also had my Cypress pulled because it was eol. Doing so, I contemplated the move and told myself, moving forward, I'll either replace it, or when I get my new rig, ensure I have one. One for the dz's now requiring them and two because they are promoted throughout the sport. Early on in my first attempt, static line progression, second five second delay from 5500, I went into a roll/spin and lost altitude awareness trying to recover (damn stupid move). Long story short, I finally got "flat" as it seemed and pulled. When I opened, I noticed pretty much instantly that I was low, 1,000 feet to be exact. The JM was apparently saying a little prayer to the inventor of the FXC at the time. Either it didn't work, or I pulled before it activated... Either way, I made it and have many many times contemplated that jump. As an engineer and self prescribed Mr. Fix it I grew up in a family of men ashamed to call someone in to fix anything from a hot water heater to their cars. Hence, I grew up with an appreciation and awareness of all things mechanical. When entering skydiving, I became enamored of the systems and the evolution of the sport. I've read everything I can get my hands on and enjoy the elegant simplicity of the skydiving rig. Obviously the evolution of containers and the devices on the market has done a lot to improve the reliability and safety of the sport, however I do tend to agree with Bill Cole regarding his post and whenever asked by whuffo friends etc... whether it's safe? I respond vehemently, no, of course not. Aka, early on I stated, sure safer than driving on highway 270 every day in St. Louis... I learned over time though, and do feel, that it's still obviously inherently dangerous and a choice we make to experience something so unique. That said, back to the evolution, Bill Booth and many others like him have invented some amazing things. The three ring system today, is standard, and notably changed the face of the sport. Obviously RSL's have become near standard with everyone insisting on one and AAD's pretty much the same and if not in ALL rigs it appears it will be that way in the near future. I have to ask though, why do you not have any on your rigs? For me, I see it happening in the future but I can say I'm painfully aware that it's all me. Aka, throw the pilot, if shit goes bad, make the decision, pull red, pull silver, etc... I'm comfortable with the way my system is rigged that my choices for action based upon the type of malfunction have to be executed in a timely fashion and correctly in order for me to survive. At the end of the day I know if I fail, well, it's pretty much a done deal. I also know when doing my check of three's and preparing to jump, what has to be right, to work. No added complexity. So many conversations on here about the different scenarios where these devices add complications that can cause further problems, but at the same time, stories where an RSL or AAD did their jobs completely and saved someones ass. Case in point, I've watched the Skyhook videos and read plenty about them and it's hard not to appreciate the design elements and the effectiveness that's been demonstrated. Lastly, the ubiquity of them in the sport nowadays and the man that designed it, of course the guy who invented three rings... Blues, Jack

Ha! Thanks Chris! I have to admit, there are many more things in life that I don't "Get!" The simplicity of this sport, and all the lessons that have learned by those before us certainly provide a solid foundation to build on that's for sure. On the backs of giants, no doubt. Even in the few jumps I've had, I've had a few very hairy situations to navigate and thankfully, came out on top. I have to admit, had it not been for the training, I wouldn't be here. Hopefully, that's the way it will always be and I won't succumb to a brain fart and go in, or simply find myself in an irrevocably irretrievable situation. One never knows.

Thanks Pops, all good points. I guess the thing I'm struggling with is of course radio can't be "all that there is". Reviewing the dz, optional "outs" in the area if you can't make it back from a bad spot as well as hazards in the area (power lines to the North 1/4 mile, etc..). In that vein, FTL, Radio, and other methods that help in the early phase are certainly worthwhile I would think. So long as one doesn't negate the other. My biggest pet peeve in life is the one trick pony. Myopia in anything can cause significant issues when a situation threatens that requires alternate solutions. Re the "simplicity" you are right. Especially when in the early phases there is so much adrenaline unloading that brain farts can be the norm. Aka, toggle right student, toggle right student, TOGGLE RIGHT STUDENT! How many times have you heard that one? The radio is working, but the student is so freaked, or "gone" that they just can't register it... Anyhow, I digress. Rambling. I think it's important for instructors to teach a holistic, big picture, and work with any /every tool that is fit for the purpose to ensure the student gets it as early as possible. Aka, radios are great, I could see FTL being a nice addition, however, neither are guarantees. The biggest guarantee is to teach them to navigate changing winds, stick to the pattern and when in need, pick the out and land it successfully. Good stuff. I don't think I was a "natural" necessarily. I think, like many, I was lucky. I had great instructors starting with Kirk Verner's dad back in the day (first guy on my radio) and I listened, with both ears. Blues

I used radios when I did the static line course 17 some odd years ago. Then, went away from the sport, came back, did AFF and used radios again. I don't understand the debate? They worked well and I learned a lot. That wasn't the only training I had. Of course I was given full instruction on what to do and how to do it. So if the radio failed, I could fly my way in. I never had a problem with it. What's the debate about? Re following someone in? Hell typically there are many canopies about, always someone to lurk albeit from far away, if you are lost. But gods honest truth if you paid attention, wind sock, arrow, and ran your pattern, no problem. Jeez a Manta is pretty damn easy to steer, and certainly slow enough to feel comfortable. I don't get it. Where's the issue?

Yeah, I hear you Nigel, and I'm not downing you for it. I don't agree with Robin on everything, but, the poll was very poorly executed. My point is, if you don't check, yes I support, or no I don't, then I would think by default you weighed in with a "No Opinion". Counting the "No Opinion" votes in with the "No's" or the "Yes's" is well, ridiculous. It would be like breaking into a heated debate/conversation over a political matter, or a family squabble, getting everyones attention and then saying "Yeah, I don't have anything to say". What's the point?

I've been following all of this, throughout and have heard some good pro and con arguments. I've also heard a lot of posturing, bickering, etc... Which is normal considering we are all human (well assuming). I have to ask Robin, and I get your point about a legitimate poll and frankly, it pisses me off as bit as well considering our organization should've utilized a professional service and the "poll" should've been executed as best as possible. However, all that aside, I'm incredulous that only 10% of the entire membership even voted. Considering that, 90% of the organization is happy to have whatever comes there way in regards to our board, etc... Lastly, the thing that pisses me off to no end? "No Opinion" Seriously, how can that be counted at all? Why bother? Who gives a shit, if you have NO OPINION? That says to me, that you shouldn't even check a box! Hell I voted no, only because my fear that the precedent will lead to the same thing in ALL aspects of the sport. Not because I fear having good training, etc... but because there was so much left unanswered. However, again, I have to ask? Who gives a shit about NO OPINION? Last but not least, what the hell? Why would that even be on the poll?

I gotta give it a shot... In my measly 75 jumps I've been in the air three times, wishing I was on the ground. Twice landed in winds higher than comfortable, scary as hell to say the least. Once a storm front came in, hailed/rained on while coming in for landing. It's better to be on the ground wishing you were in the air, than in the air wishing you were on the ground. Know your limits, and when to sit it out. Even if others choose differently. Coming in hard, sucks and it's just not worth it. Squeak? Is this what you were getting at? Blues

Be honored to Gary. Amazing jump, I'll second the beer offer. Keep it up, but stay alive. Blue Skies, Jack

Alright, heading to bed, just picked this one up and I have to ask. It's been FOREVER since I last did water training.... The SIM recommendation you posted is obviously good for many reasons. However, aside from the recent wing suit incident, I have to ask, with all the experience we have on this site, how many people out there have had a "real" water landing incident and lived to survive? Just curious because, adding on to the original poster, with extensive water experience (that kind of scuba diving is significant), how many people have cutaway the main when toes touching water, etc...? Just curious, this is obviously a specific kind of incident and frankly, has to be scary as hell. Thanks gang ahead of time, and I'm not trying to hijack, just adding on. SIM recommendations are great, I read everything I get my hands on, however, obviously, we know real world "been there" advice counts for a hell of a lot more than what the book recommends. Happy Holidays All, Jack