3 New BMI's in the flock

[LouDiamond 1]

Congrats goes out to the 3 new BMI's from the Air Force Academy. JTVAL, Chad and Mike, all instructors at the Air Force Academy's parachute program earned their BMIs this past weekend. All three will be instrumental in bringing wingsuiting into the Cadets demo team program and training future members. All three are located in the Colorado area and will also be available for FFCs at local DZ's. Congrats and Good Job guys.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[DSE 3]

HUGE Congrats to JT and Chad, fun to fly w/you in Moab, great that you got your wings now.

[jtval 0]

Thanks Scott,
I appreciate all the training.

Looking forward to more flocking in the civilian world.

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[piisfish 135]

héhéhéhééééey
I met them guys... even had a beer with them
and don't forget you were a rigger before they were BMI's

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[michalm21 0]

If only Birman made wingsuits

[PhreeZone 15]

Just curious about this since I remember seeing a few comments around some of these jumpers taking a re-currency First Flight course within the last few weeks - how much experience do these BMI's have in wingsuits and flocking? I have seen a lot of BMI's in years past with minimal experience and I thought the programs were getting away from that and were looking for more qualified and experienced flyers to be the instructors and coaches moving forward...

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

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[Zeemax 0]

The BMI program used to require a minimum* of 100 WS jumps.

Don't think that's changed?


*obviously, more is preferential.

Phoenix Fly - High performance wingsuits for skydiving and BASE
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[LouDiamond 1]

All 3 are full time Military instructors at the Air Force Academy's parachute program responsible for teaching/training parachuting to the Cadet's and for the Academy's DEMO team events, all are AFFI's/coach/Pro/wind tunnel instructor, etc. All 3 have a strong instructional background and passed the course curriculum through demonstrative skills/abilities on the ground and in the air.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[jtval 0]

Thanks Scott.



Eric,
The FFC I took With DSE was purely for educational reasons.
it was not my FFC. I just wanted to see as many avenues as I could see.


Taya came to the academy and I had every intention of sitting in on her speech.

It has nothing to do with liking one side of the politics over the other or circumventing one system over the other.

I know people on all sides. I just want to build the best WS program for the cadets that I can. My process is to learn as much as I can from as many people as I can and work it within our reg's.

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[DSE 3]

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All 3 are full time Military instructors at the Air Force Academy's parachute program responsible for teaching/training parachuting to the Cadet's and for the Academy's DEMO team events, all are AFFI's/coach/Pro/wind tunnel instructor, etc. All 3 have a strong instructional background and passed the course curriculum through demonstrative skills/abilities on the ground and in the air.

If I read between the lines, you're saying Birdman/you waived the 100 wingsuit jump requirement for a BMI rating?
Didn't you say at the USPA BOD/Phoenix meeting that "Birdman is the oldest and most integrous program" or something to that effect?
Obviously, that's well within Birdman's purview to change up their own requirements but it is also fair question for people to ask, just as it's fair to ask about taking people for FFC's when they only have 50 skydives.
FWIW, I've flown with two of the three given their ratings, and was impressed with the skill vs jump numbers.

[jtval 0]

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FWIW, I've flown with two of the three given their ratings, and was impressed with the skill vs jump numbers.

Thanks, DSE.


For those who read.
Here is a brief post of what I see.

I am not here trying to gain favor with one faction or the other in the WS Community. I enjoy skydiving and will continue to. I have friends/family on all sides of the flock and don't plan on letting politics change that.

That Said:
I was put in charge of building a WS program at the Academy. I KNOW that I am a lucky SOB for the opportunity I get there.
However, Within the military I could have sat down and built a program without going through ANY formal training in the civilian world.

I SOUGHT OUT the training from DSE and from Scott. Both were very helpful to my cause.
The FFC I took with DSE was not my first flight course. I wanted to get as many differing methods that exist so I could build a better program before I teach and release the cadets into the wild. It's safer and better for the entire Flocking world if I do that.

Taya was just at the academy giving a speech to the team. I was hoping to make it to that, too, but I was out of town.

So FIRST, I would like to publicly thank SCOTT, DSE, and TAYA for the help.

Onto the BMI-
We did not BUY this rating. The three of us Jumped with Scott 13-16 times last weekend. The last being the eval dive.
We did ground school and the proper training etc.
As I said, MY goal was to get the training necessary to build a safe program within the confines of our regulations.

Scott did express the 100 jump with me but he understands the the military. When I spoke with Scott it was my goal to get the numbers up but our program was put on hold while they evaluated the desire to add WS. Yes, I was short on the numbers.

However, when it was decided to fund the rating course we were full steam ahead. This was not about circumventing any system. it was a decision to help ensure the safety of my students.


For what it's worth, ALL factions of the flock have helped in one way or another. THANK YOU all.

However, I have already expressed to DSE and to Scott that I would like to get the PFC rating for no other reason than to receive as much training as I can to make my program better.

I stopped posting on DZ.com when I joined the AF parachute team because I knew how the politics tend to cloud many realities and opinions. I will not allow the drama of the flock to create a 4th faction.


FYI- the BM and PF FFC were similar enough that I would feel comfortable putting students through any of the two.
Scott and DSE are good instructors. That is why I sought the training.

BTW-Good things were said from each faction about the other.

This is the last post I will make to this thread.
I just felt you all should understand my purpose for being here and hope you can find a way to support the decisions made.

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[sangiro 4]

I unlocked this thread. This is a relevant discussion and legitimate questions are being asked.

Safe swoops
Sangiro

[Zeemax 0]

HH! Nice to see you venture into the WS forum.

Thanks for unlocking the thread.

Phoenix Fly - High performance wingsuits for skydiving and BASE
Performance Designs - Simply brilliant canopies

[mccordia 73]

Thank you Sangiro,

Ik think the basic question is, a military person, outside of his military profession, is announced here as a civilian BMI, and promoted as an instructor for first flights for civilians.

Had it been for a special military training, only to military personal within their function, it would have been 'less recommendable' but to a degree...understandable.

But here, its the "available for FFC's at local DZ's" that completely ignores and further degrades the already flawed BMI standard currently in operation.
In the end, this has led to people not meeting the basic requirements set by the (former) manufacturer rating. And trying to aim arrows at the participants is not fair, and irrelevant. But as a chief instructor, you are indeed responsible for degrading the standard, and ignoring the basic (100 wingsuit jump) limits you make everyone else adhere to.

Though the intended goal may have been military application, the actual use referred to is 100% civilian.

JC
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[DSE 3]

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Though the intended goal may have been military application, the actual use referred to is 100% civilian.

Jarno, I don't feel this is accurate. The instruction was for military instructors to teach at the Air Force Academy, not the civilian world.
Like you (and probably everyone else), I was really surprised to read the line about "at local DZs for FFC's" etc.., Scott threw JT to the wolves with that one, but I'd chatted with JT about this before Scott's post was made and JT was very clear that he had no plans nor accessibiility to be teaching civilians on dropzones for a very long while. In other words, I don't know that the new BMI's have any intention of teaching in the outside world, or whether that was just something Scott invented without their input.
I'd still like to hear from Scott whether this was a waiver issued to the military, and/or whether this has been waived in the past.

It's not a far stretch for a newly minted BMI to say "Well, I got my BMI at 80 jumps and everything was fine, so it's not a big deal to train up this newbie at 150 jumps," and so on. This is (admittedly) how I feel the PF program AND the BM programs got watered down over the past decade.

[edit] Thank you, HH for unlocking the thread.

[mccordia 73]

Agreed...I think Scotts biggest fault is using the BMI name, if it was only aimed at a miltairy application outside civillian use (an intent seemingly clear with JT, not clear with Scott).

Name it MBMI or whatever..but make sure its differentiated from the civilian world. Which clearly wast the case in the initial PR statement.

JC
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[jtval 0]

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Like you (and probably everyone else), I was really surprised to read the line about "at local DZs for FFC's" etc.., Scott threw JT to the wolves with that one,

DSE,

Thanks for the post.
I don't feel like he threw me to the wolves. I won't speak for him but I would gather a guess that he figured by the time I was ready I would be available in local DZ's

Miswording? I'd guess.
Scott is aware that I average about 15 civilian jump/year. 15 is a number that I always say but in reality its more than that. I still do about 300-ish jumps per year but I do a LARGE portion of those with the A.F. (for those unfamiliar the jumping we do,it is sport jumping. It's not what you'd think of as the typical military jumping)

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It's not a far stretch for a newly minted BMI to say "Well, I got my BMI at 80 jumps and everything was fine, so it's not a big deal to train up this newbie at 150 jumps," and so on. This is (admittedly) how I feel the PF program AND the BM programs got watered down over the past decade.

Understood. I can totally see how that would dilute the pool. Admittedly, I don't have a strong grasp on the history of the Flock so I won't comment on past dealings.


While, I realize that this isn't really about me but the decision made by Scott, I do offer my opinion. I feel Scott had two choices:
1) Train me and help me build a program equipped with knowledge.
B) Refuse training and let me build a program by reading DZ.com and watching youtube.


Again, As I said before I thank everyone who helped and continues to help in the standing up of our WS program. We're training our first students tomorrow.(JUST KIDDING!)


ZEEMAX,
Someone(Phree) already answered the question.
We aren't using WS for Military applications.
I don't want to drag the A.F. into this because it creates more issues than I care to deal with but you can google it and find some basic info on what we do.
Its a leadership course that uses sport skydiving as the tool to foster teamwork, leadership and professionalism.

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[mccordia 73]

Quote

While, I realize that this isn't really about me but the decision made by Scott, I do offer my opinion. I feel Scott had two choices:
1) Train me and help me build a program equipped with knowledge.
B) Refuse training and let me build a program by reading DZ.com and watching youtube.

I am missing a 3rd option, which is 'guide participants up to the recommended skill and experience levels, and than continue with the training per recommendation/rule.

Ive been in this situations myself (people who met the skills requirements, did a great job teaching, but didnt have the mandatory experience levels yet) and everyone involved there didn't think about option 1 or B () you mention, and went for the 3rd one. Wait/train until ready.

Given the fact that military training should allow for a lot of dedicated flying in a short time, it would have been no issue to push for the actual mandatory standards the BMI rating allegedly requires. Not (again) publicly poluting the already muddy standard.

JC
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[jtval 0]

Quote

I am missing a 3rd option, which is 'guide participants up to the recommended skill and experience levels, and than continue with the training per recommendation/rule.

True.
Honestly, I was supposed to have the required numbers by this time. I spoke originally with Scott in May. I had to plan the course and get the funding to get the ball rolling.
We secured a date that SHOULD have allowed me enough time to have 100 WS jumps. However, Our WS program was put on pause for a few months. We couldn't fly them until proper requests were sent up. That process takes a while.
It came to a point in time when I had to use the money or lose it. So I had money put on the Eloy account and asked Again, if Scott would be able to teach us.

He let me know that he understands how the military works and was willing to teach us and made a point to let me know that
To quote Scott[I hope he doesn't mind.]

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if the instructor candidate cannot fly relative to me, identify issues in air and give corrective hand signals to me then they will not pass as it is a pass/fail type of course. I don't expect instructor candidates to be ninjas but I fly like a student with student problems during the evals and it should not be overly difficult for an instructor candidate with a grasp of how to fly their body to stay with me

I thanked him for allowing us to take the course and planned accordingly.

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Ive been in this situations myself (people who met the skills requirements, did a great job teaching, but didnt have the mandatory experience levels yet) and everyone involved there didn't think about option 1 or B () you mention, and went for the 3rd one. Wait/train until ready.

Completely Agree with option 3. In a perfect world I would have had the experience. I needed experience and had one opportunity to get it. Chad is civilan with lots of experience I am enlisted with some. I know how to write military courses. Chad is my SME(subject matter expert) but I needed a good understanding.
Glad you caught the (1) and (B)options

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Given the fact that military training should allow for a lot of dedicated flying in a short time, it would have been no issue to push for the actual mandatory standards the BMI rating allegedly requires. Not (again) publicly poluting the already muddy standard.

I don't know the history of the flock but I completely understand your point. I don't want to be the guy saying
"I am an exception." but in this case, I was the exception and I knew it. I knew that it was specifically because I was using it in a military course. I don't plan on giving courses in the civilian world. I am hoping to help DSE run a course in january, but I am in no way trying to take the lead. I will "cut my teeth" with his help.

( I also plan to have been through the PFC and have MORE than 100WS jumps.)

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[mnskydiver688 0]

One thing that came to mind in all this is with Birdman Inc. out of the wingsuit business where is the gear for first flights going to come from? My understanding is the only gear that can be used in a FFC is the manufacturers whose instructional rating is being utilized. In other words if I have a BMI, I can't use PF or any other gear whose manufacturer requires a different rating. So this begs the question, with the supply of new BM stuff running out, what gear will be used?

Sky Canyon Wingsuiters

[DSE 3]

There is a video on YouTube of Jari doing an FFC with "the first female Indian wingsuiter" (actually at least the second), and the suit being used is either a modified Prodigy or a copy of the Prodigy.
This suggests that somewhere in the near future, Birdman Inc will rise from the ashes of Birdman Oy.

Even more...it further illustrates that manufacturers should be out of the "rating" game.

Back to point, it shows that any beginning suit can effectively be used for training, regardless of the rating.

[mnskydiver688 0]

Then that would require a single FFC suit endorsed by the rating organization. Share the design amongst the manufacturers and go from there. Do you see that working? I understand that the differences between the various suits that are appropriate for FFC aren't that great, but enough to warrant different briefings on the suits features. Seems to me manufacturers are stuck in the rating game until a common design is accepted. Tandems are still stuck in manufacturer ratings for a number of reasons this difference in design being one of them.

Sky Canyon Wingsuiters

[DSE 3]

Why?
How is an Intro dramatically different from a P2 or Prodigy different from a GTI (if the GTI had zips vs laces)?

Handle placement is the same, wings are essentially the same, getting in/out of the suit is essentially the same.

Now that the manufacturers have all moved away from lace-ups/cabling...there are very few significant differences. I teach students the same way whether they're wearing my P2's, Intros, or GTI. It just takes more time with the GTI than the others due to the cabling. Ditto for coaching with Acro or Prodigy.
I'd be curious to hear thoughts from others that own multiple brands of introductory suits?

[jakee 1,257]

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My understanding is the only gear that can be used in a FFC is the manufacturers whose instructional rating is being utilized. In other words if I have a BMI, I can't use PF or any other gear whose manufacturer requires a different rating.

Which manufacturers require that people be trained by their instructors? Is that in writing anywhere?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[mccordia 73]

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Which manufacturers require that people be trained by their instructors? Is that in writing anywhere?

I do remember something to that degree in the former BMI program.
But having just watched Jari train someone in a prodigy on youtube, and knowing many who train on any suit they can use, I dont think thats the case anywhere. But having the coaches be current on the suits they use to teach is important in all cases.

Though rigging techniques vary (but you get that within one brand even), I think its mostly a bad case of sale motivated 'limits' as to what suits BRAND (not type of rigging) students can jump.

Though we did see some country rules put in an attempt at tying branding onto instruction (first forcing people to fly one brand/type for XXX jumps before anything else). That would be like the PD canopy rules...forcing all skydivers to fly a PD sabre2 the first 100 jumps.

Though difficult, the more branding/sales are seperated from instruction, the better.

JC
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