Gainer-exit in WS-environment

[mccordia 73]

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stop leading the thread off topic

I think that started when you grabbed your popcorn

JC
FlyLikeBrick
I'm an Athlete?

[Hagen 0]

the only accusation I can agree with

[VectorBoy 0]

People, people stop! bad mouthing wingsuit instructors.......


Thats my job pendejoes!

[skittles_of_SDC 0]

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People, people stop! bad mouthing wingsuit instructors.......


Thats my job pendejoes!

Edit to add: As a side note, wtf is with the middle school and high school drama theme we got going on? "you betrayed my trust. I'm so hurt." "How could you go out with my boyfriend!?" "You're taking Suzie to the dance!? You knew I was gonna ask her!" Being pretty new to the wingsuit section I'm not too impressed with it right now.

[virgin-burner 1]

you dont have the 200 yet anyway..

hey girls, get those dildos out of your asses and get back to business!

“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

[lurch 0]

I'll throw in a couple tips I think might help a bit here.
As was already mentioned, gainers tend to string out the exits so they're fun but they do slow down flock assembly. If you're running mixed experience levels I'd suggest staggering the exits, left-right-left instead of side by side simultaneously, to avoid the blow to the head Scott mentioned. Although alternating exits introduces a slight delay to an already strung out exit, its better to have an orderly delay in which there were no collisions, and disoriented flyers have less to worry about without having to concentrate on not hitting someone right next to them during a maneuver in which an offheading exit is likely. Besides, if your timing is tight alternating the exit only costs you about 3/4 of a second, which is a lot less than you'll spend getting reoriented while on the hill flying in a less-than-ideal direction after you just got smacked in the head by your wingman.

Side by side would seem more efficient at first glance but it doesn't do you any good if theres either a collision or offheading exits introducing confusion and reorientation time. The birds all hit the air sooner but spent that time getting straightened out anyway and trying not to hit each other. If you alternate and accept a bit of delay and separation you can get the chase and assembly underway quicker and safer and wind up coming out ahead in terms of time conservation. Alternating exits is an inefficient use of the door but an efficient means of confusion and collision control.

Also, people unfamiliar with the feel of a gainer tend to fight it a bit because you tend to come out of the exit steeply head-down. If you keep a slight arch afterward it can help bring your nose up to a more familiar angle and get you a more fluid recovery, allowing you to begin closing on the flock in a controlled manner a little sooner than you otherwise would be able to if you allow the dive to persist. This also conserves a bit of altitude. You'll have more options for choosing your approach.
Hope this helps.
-B

Live and learn... or die, and teach by example.

[Skwrl 56]

As usual, Lurch gives wise advice.

But since some of the people who are lurking are probably going, "Great, but WTF is a Gainer?!?!", let me give a more basic/n00b explanation. I couldn't find it quickly, but Dave Gerstein has a fantastic photo of me getting kicked in the face by Danny Mattox as I did one wrong, so I know how not to do them.

Basically, on a tailgate plane, as you exit the plane, keeping your armwing closed, you flip backwards and open your legwing. This causes you to do a backflip, usually resulting in you pointing more or less straight down. Open your armwing and you level out...

It's a pretty cool visual, as you can see here (from Matt Hoover's pics): http://www.matthoover.com/gallery/skydiving-photos/2008-08/2008-08_p12.html#navbar (showing J-Sho, Rick Hough, Nebelkopf and Lurch diving and Steve Harrington right in the door). You can also see a momentary clip of Andreea Olea and Ariel McManus doing one at 2:35 here: http://www.youtube.com/user/huxley71

Skwrl Productions - Wingsuit Photography

Northeast Bird School - Chief Logistics Guy and Video Dork

[Butters 0]

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*prepared lots of popcorn*

I brought some more popcorn.

PS: Gainers are fun (I've done them out of an Otter, Skyvan, and Casa). As far as safety, a poised exit has you flying up the line of flight while a gainer exit has you flying down the line of flight. Thus, if you mix and match you will increase the chance of a collision ...

"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch

[scottygofast 0]

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You had half the load (in one group/jump) doing gainer exits, and the other half poised exits on multiple ocassions as part of your diveplan.

This resulted in many scary situations with people crossing eachother in different directions, especialy at the 'transition point' in the exits.

Outside of those jumps where it was part of the exit/diveplan you made, you also specificly told people to try gainer exits if they hadnt tried those, which several people did (just watch the videos again).

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The times I was made aware of someone doing a gainer while everyone poised, I made sure that it was stopped.

No you did not. And everyone present at the boogie will confirm that (two who read the previous posts already commented on MSN, confirming what I said, and if you want Ill gladly get most people present at the boogie to chime in on the subject here?)

I attended every single debrief, and outside of a lauging 'look at these two guys doing a cool gainer exit' on the middle of a complete group of poised exits, you didnt comment on a single one in a negative way.

Mark, Duncan, I and quite a few others made some suggestions during the debriefs (I think most people remember those) on the gainer exits (and not doing them!) but at the time, you didnt see it as a problem and kept saying 'this is how we do it back home all the time' as validation for doing so. This is all stuff that happened in front of every single flyer present at the debriefs.

Your debriefs (at An72) tended to only focus on the positions people were flying (slot-wise) and did not really go into negative aspects of peoples flying at a more direct and personal level. And seem to have issues with accepting input from others.


Much as my comments over skype, email before and at the boogie past year, to both you and Rolf and letting people with sub-200 jumps on the plane, doing wingsuit jumps in front/after bigways. Going against everything the two of you are supposed to advocate as BMC-I's.
How can you publicly state that number as a manditory jumpnumber, yet be completely okay with people not sticking to that and jumping out, potentialy endangering the whole group in front or after them?
Even if a coach is present, what will you do if that low-experience flying dives into a group/flies the wrong way or worse? We can offer some hints, signals and examples in the sky, but during the jump we are mostly glorified observers.

I know you see yourself as the main source of knowledge on the subject, and fully second that you do know a lot. But it doesnt hurt to also admit/realise other people have inputs and improvements on your methods and knowledge as well, and what we know/do/advocate can improve/change/be updated over time.

And that there is NOTHING wrong with admitting to being human, and actually learning new things and changing your actions due to that over time..Ill gladly share every single fuckup Ive ever made, every bad dicission in organsing (mine and others) if it means people learn from it. Hiding it, and acting like it never happened doesnt teach anyone a single thing.

Comparing the bigway organising at An72 the past years, to the stuff the FlockU guys did in Elsinore. Its freefly zoo dives vs RW bigway standards in terms organising.

They made a great push for dicipline/stricter flying, and actually cutting people out of those bigger groups as well. Something which hasnt happened in any of the stuff at An72 in your big groups. Regardless of who dove through a formation at 200 mph or took an entire bigway into the clouds.

Though we had fun at the time, I think the accident two years ago at An72 also showed and made people realise those times are over...again..just watch the videos...

I know over time I have changed a lot of things in organising and FFCs I teach, based on what Ive seen other people do (be it in person or on videos). Its an ever evolving process, and one we should all pay attention to and wokr on together...teaching, sharing and learning..

+1

Mccordia is NOT wrong... and thats all I have to say at this moment, For I dont want to be in the pissing contest, but for those of you that think he is, jump more and talk to us that do.

Blues~

Gainer exits are alot of fun.... heres an obligatory pic to show~ :P

Z Flock #11; Muff #1909; PFI #15, USPA Lifer
Commercial Multi-Inst. Airplane/Rotory
www.flyteskool.ws Aerial Photography

[DSE 3]

I don't want to be part of a pissing contest either, but I'm grateful that two of the guys who got "Burked" at the Eloy wingsuit event in November were cut from the Elsinore event.
A recent email has been circulating some of the wingsuit community about "I'd never take anyone with sub-200 jumps" from one of the BMCI guys.
I call BS on the authors of those emails to step up with a straight face and say they've never taken anyone on a First Flight Course knowing the student had fewer than 200 jumps.
I'll be one of the first to admit it, I took a guy with 160 jumps on an FFC and he had a cutaway after a marginal jump. I've probably scared him off of wingsuits for the rest of his life, similar to how I was scared after my first jump. I learned in one. I made a mistake. Can the authors of the blog/email say the same?

This blog has the "facts" about Sebastian wrong in so many ways...it's amazing how the facts got twisted by someone that had a first-person source. Making reference to the deceased's gear being for sale in a comical way is in extremely poor taste as well.
I guess "BMCI's" are "Instructors" and everyone else is a "coach?"

FWIW (probably more popcorn time for some), I believe that the people who were part of the 71 way jumped their butts off all summer, were current, and had their stuff together; I know I did and saw most of the 71 way people at one event or another...

This shouldn't be a thread about safety practices, but since it's gone in that direction...

Not having been around for the infamous AN72 event that seems to be a hot topic, the one thing that I've heard reiterated over and over again is how the 71 Way couldn't be like that event, and that safety was paramount.
Consider that dozens of 30+way events occurred during the summer, not one incident of any kind....
I'd submit that the goal was met, and new techniques were learned, taught, discovered, and effected during the summer at the various events held in Lodi, Pepperell, Salt Lake City, ZHills, Sebastian, Elsinore, SDC, and other qualifying dropzones. I think I was at most of them.
One of my first dozen WX jumps was a gainer from a Skyvan, and have since done many from Otters, Skyvans, Casa, KingAir. They're a blast. Just be sure the guy next to you knows what he's doing and doesn't do a barrel roll as part of his gainer. I've got a great photo of the bruise somewhere... Juan Mayer's video shows t'wasn't I that did the gainer with a twist.
Gainers are at their best, IMO, when you're at the front of the skyvan and have the length of the airplane to run.

[Hagen 0]

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A recent email has been circulating some of the wingsuit community about "I'd never take anyone with sub-200 jumps" from one of the BMCI guys.
I call BS on the authors of those emails to step up with a straight face and say they've never taken anyone on a First Flight Course knowing the student had fewer than 200 jumps.
...

Making reference to the deceased's gear being for sale in a comical way is in extremely poor taste as well.

Write the author - otherwise it seems to me not very nice to discuss a person who do not read all the pissing contests online

I don't read the blog that regularly, but I'm subscribed to the news via email. for me they are always helpful - and hope this one will be helpful for others, too, I asked the guys conducting the safety day here next weekend to include the reminding of the necessity to follow the rules in their speech.

as for the rest... funny how differently people read the same words
as for mentioning the rig... I don't want to try and check it, but I read it like the fact that the rig for sale is about the same that the one from Seb. maybe people asked questions, and that's why it's pointed out that it's not THAT rig.

I believe that it's time for mods to interfere and do smth with the thread

[DSE 3]

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I don't want to try and check it, but I read it like the fact that the rig for sale is about the same that the one from Seb. maybe people asked questions, and that's why it's pointed out that it's not THAT rig.

I suppose that's why there is a smiley face after that comment. Except for the diff colors, diff brand, diff canopy, diff size, diff everything, they're similar, I suppose.

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Write the author -

I did. It's equally bullsh** to send a mass email about an incident that you know nothing about, have incorrect facts for, and making inappropriate comments about those one "thinks" are involved, but not have the balls to admit that "oops, I made a mistake, this person wasn't involved after all..."
In fact, I'd call that "cowardly."

Furthermore, the facts are VERY available both here on Dropzone and on other websites. Jump numbers, name, etc all available.
There is no defense for making light of the fatality, period. I was there as a witness to it, and nothing about it was funny.
As far as an appeal to not do it anymore...it sounds like "I'm guilty of this as recent as last week, but I won't do it anymore, even though others in my organization have said they can take someone just off A-license status and teach them to wingsuit...."

Sorry, that don't wash.

I disagree the thread should be modded, unless it's split off to its own thread.
There are "names" in the WX community that have made some significant mistakes; people have been injured and in three cases, killed recently.
How those mistakes happened, how they could be avoided, why it's important to avoid them, why the rules are what they are, how we can better the sport, make the discipline more safe....
it's a VERY important discussion.
One that has to happen as this discipline moves forward.

[Hagen 0]

sure it is important - just looks weird in this very thread.

but how will you call it if there will be a separate one? 'Pillory'?

it seems to me that blaming each other for previous mistakes is not very constructive. and right now the discussion over people doesn't look beautiful to me.

[scottygofast 0]

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I don't want to try and check it, but I read it like the fact that the rig for sale is about the same that the one from Seb. maybe people asked questions, and that's why it's pointed out that it's not THAT rig.

I suppose that's why there is a smiley face after that comment. Except for the diff colors, diff brand, diff canopy, diff size, diff everything, they're similar, I suppose.

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Write the author -

I did. It's equally bullsh** to send a mass email about an incident that you know nothing about, have incorrect facts for, and making inappropriate comments about those one "thinks" are involved, but not have the balls to admit that "oops, I made a mistake, this person wasn't involved after all..."
In fact, I'd call that "cowardly."

Furthermore, the facts are VERY available both here on Dropzone and on other websites. Jump numbers, name, etc all available.
There is no defense for making light of the fatality, period. I was there as a witness to it, and nothing about it was funny.
As far as an appeal to not do it anymore...it sounds like "I'm guilty of this as recent as last week, but I won't do it anymore, even though others in my organization have said they can take someone just off A-license status and teach them to wingsuit...."

Sorry, that don't wash.

I disagree the thread should be modded, unless it's split off to its own thread.
There are "names" in the WX community that have made some significant mistakes; people have been injured and in three cases, killed recently.
How those mistakes happened, how they could be avoided, why it's important to avoid them, why the rules are what they are, how we can better the sport, make the discipline more safe....
it's a VERY important discussion.
One that has to happen as this discipline moves forward.

+100000

I cannot agree more. This is possibly the largest issue with our community. We have grown to a size and interest level that had never been anticipated. This topic is of the utmost importance, becuase the only way we can move forward is TOGETHER. in order to do that, all the closets need to be cleaned out in order for that to happen. this will not be pleasant for some, if not all involved. Those whom have covertly spread misinformation and stated non-truths to perpetuate their own selves, while selling good people down the river~ your time has come to come clean. We cannot as a community tolerate these kind of actions from those whom we should have respect for, there is no I in team. it is only for the good of the community, and or sport that this should be done. There is no I in team... TO BE CONTINUED SOON


Blue Skies

Scotty Burns


BTW~ there will be a minimum experience requirement of 500 wingsuit jumps to be a part of this discussion. Everyones opnion is valued, however we ask that it be in the correct forum, and this discussion isnt it. its about perspective.

Z Flock #11; Muff #1909; PFI #15, USPA Lifer
Commercial Multi-Inst. Airplane/Rotory
www.flyteskool.ws Aerial Photography

[Butters 0]

Quote

Quote

How those mistakes happened, how they could be avoided, why it's important to avoid them, why the rules are what they are, how we can better the sport, make the discipline more safe ... it's a VERY important discussion.

This topic is of the utmost importance, becuase the only way we can move forward is TOGETHER. There will be a minimum experience requirement of 500 wingsuit jumps to be a part of this discussion.

If only the people with a minimum experience requirement of 500 wingsuit jumps are allowed to participate in the discussion then we won't be moving forward together. Some people will be moving forward together while others continue in their own direction ...

"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch

[VectorBoy 0]

BTW~ there will be a minimum experience requirement of 500 wingsuit jumps to be a part of this discussion.

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You know that will leave out 90% of the wingsuits instructors don't you? Funny but true.

• Quote

[Hagen 0]

the discussion was discriminating from the very beginning

but now I'm leaving it not because I submit to the discrimination but trough the simple fact that I try to keep my posts number lower than my jumps number. and since skydiving season is still closed for winter here... I can't waste my posts anymore

just don't make this discussion a witch hunt. making mistakes and breaking rules is not a crime - it's human nature.

[VectorBoy 0]

just don't make this discussion a witch hunt. making mistakes and breaking rules is not a crime - it's human nature.

[birdynamnam 28]

True, you did not advocate it directly, but there where mixed exit styles. I actually did my first gainer exit right in front of you. Was fun. Us doing gainers, went out last and with good separation. So it was kind'a safe.

My perception of the AN 72 boogie that you organized back then - was that safety was put to priority one! As you emphasized many times. I think that you did a really good job on this, teaching some basic wingsuit safety skills to people. It was my first "big" boogie and it was far better (for me and some of my guys) than the later boogie.

[DSE 3]

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making mistakes and breaking rules is not a crime - it's human nature.

Breaking rules means you acted with intentionality. If someone is hurt or dies as a result of that intentionality... a lot of options open up. Legally and ethically.

[ScottGray 0]

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I don't want to be part of a pissing contest either, but I'm grateful that two of the guys who got "Burked" at the Eloy wingsuit event in November were cut from the Elsinore event.
A recent email has been circulating some of the wingsuit community about "I'd never take anyone with sub-200 jumps" from one of the BMCI guys.
I call BS on the authors of those emails to step up with a straight face and say they've never taken anyone on a First Flight Course knowing the student had fewer than 200 jumps.
I'll be one of the first to admit it, I took a guy with 160 jumps on an FFC and he had a cutaway after a marginal jump. I've probably scared him off of wingsuits for the rest of his life, similar to how I was scared after my first jump. I learned in one. I made a mistake. Can the authors of the blog/email say the same?

This blog has the "facts" about Sebastian wrong in so many ways...it's amazing how the facts got twisted by someone that had a first-person source. Making reference to the deceased's gear being for sale in a comical way is in extremely poor taste as well.
I guess "BMCI's" are "Instructors" and everyone else is a "coach?"

FWIW (probably more popcorn time for some), I believe that the people who were part of the 71 way jumped their butts off all summer, were current, and had their stuff together; I know I did and saw most of the 71 way people at one event or another...

This shouldn't be a thread about safety practices, but since it's gone in that direction...

Not having been around for the infamous AN72 event that seems to be a hot topic, the one thing that I've heard reiterated over and over again is how the 71 Way couldn't be like that event, and that safety was paramount.
Consider that dozens of 30+way events occurred during the summer, not one incident of any kind....
I'd submit that the goal was met, and new techniques were learned, taught, discovered, and effected during the summer at the various events held in Lodi, Pepperell, Salt Lake City, ZHills, Sebastian, Elsinore, SDC, and other qualifying dropzones. I think I was at most of them.
One of my first dozen WX jumps was a gainer from a Skyvan, and have since done many from Otters, Skyvans, Casa, KingAir. They're a blast. Just be sure the guy next to you knows what he's doing and doesn't do a barrel roll as part of his gainer. I've got a great photo of the bruise somewhere... Juan Mayer's video shows t'wasn't I that did the gainer with a twist.
Gainers are at their best, IMO, when you're at the front of the skyvan and have the length of the airplane to run.

-----------------------

Nicely said Spot !!

WSI-5 / PFI-51 / EGI-112 / S-Fly
The Brothers Gray Wing Suit Academy
Contact us for first flight and basic flocking courses at your DZ or boogie.
www.thebrothersgray.com

[Skwrl 56]

Here we go. Linked Gainer exit. Done wrong. My bad.

http://www.skydivingstills.com/photos/359041694_b8o5Y-M.jpg

Skwrl Productions - Wingsuit Photography

Northeast Bird School - Chief Logistics Guy and Video Dork

[QuietStorm 0]

Dennis ( Denig );

Sorry this thread took of in the direction that it did.

I could not have written a better reply than what Lurch did. Please see his post.

Spot makes a good point too. You can not control what the other guy is going to do. Do you know how "internally comfortable" that fellow / gal next to you is with the exit? If they blow it...is this person of the such size and body mass that you definately don't want to collide with?

I have seen large group gainer exits go well out the back of a CASA 212 at Carolina SkyFest ( Scott Gray has cool footage of him and I going out ) and at the Pepperell CASA Boogie.

As Lurch says, if you have a right lane and left lane with a slight offset/zippered; the exit can go smooth.
My observed reason for these exits going well was that everyone was experienced and very "internally" comfortable wtih the exit. They were all relaxed and had done it dozens of times before. As a result of the wingsuiter experience on the load the gainer exits were tight, fluid, and synchronous.

IMO I think the whole "180" turn required for poised exits out the back of tailgate aircraft, delays, and "bumps" spread things out worse. I think experienced wingsuiters, who know each other, are very comfortable and synchronous with the gainer exit can empty the aircraft faster.

Your first gainer will be intimidating. Putting a group of people together doing a gainer for the first time can and usually results in some bumps on exit resulting in "Cheetos hitting the wind" . See DSE's comment on this. When you start out; keep the group smaller and comfortable.

Once you pull off your first gainer you will be addicted to the exit! I took my wife out on her first gainer exit last weekend. She pulled it off beautifully and now insists on the noisy, stinky, slow ride...SkyVan; that has a tailgate.

So do a bunch of these exits with a friend or two, keep the group small, get comfortable, and just have fun!

Attached is a photo of DSE doing a gainer out of SkyVan. Photo credit to Scott Callantine.

Update: Currently " Nuclear Nick" Bender is in Iraq for the next 3 years driving fuel trucks for KBR making some serious money to make up for lost time. Two convoys recently got hit and as a civilian he has already taken "incoming"

Camo Blade's, Camo Containers, Olive Drab canopies; the perfect equipment for evasion and escape in some of the most CHOICE base sites in certain National Parks in the Western U.S. Pictures are classified.

Nick Bender may not have the most perfect gainer exit out of a tailgate but certainly much bigger balls than I as his B.A.S.E. jump days go back to Carl Boenish.

And when my buddy returns we shall go to Norway!

[fmmobley 0]

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...I have seen large group gainer exits go well out the back of a CASA 212 at Carolina SkyFest ( Scott Gray has cool footage of him and I going out ) and at the Pepperell CASA Boogie...

I wonder if you are referring to last year's Skyfest, held at Chester. If so I was in that group that Scott Gray was organizing. I did my first gainer exits there.

All I really have to add is that they are easy, they are fun, and I want to do more.

... Marion

[dploi 0]

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Please post here yours WS-experience concerning gainer-exits. Safety rules? Specials?

Just relax and hop out as if you're going into a pool feet first. Nothing too drastic, just hop a couple feet out (*not up*). The wind will flip you around. Stay symmetrical and *relaxed* the whole way through the rotation.

Don't even bother out of a side door aircraft... no point there. Great for a tailgate, though.

Note: this advice is aimed towards a first gainer exit.