Sabre2ooth 0 #1 January 13, 2008 Hi all, First post in the forum. I have recently purchased a pair of Birdman Tracking Pantz and they are awesome. However, due to the increased power in my legs, I tend to go a bit head down on deployment. Has anyone got any suggestions on how to remedy this? Blue skies Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dragon2 0 #2 January 13, 2008 Yeah, don't go headdown Don't give so much leg. At first, adding more drag up top (baggy sweater) will help, but you should be able to not go headdown even when wearing no shirt at all. Headdown openings can hurt you pretty bad, so either fix this soon or leave off the trackpantz for now. ciel bleu, Saskia Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sabre2ooth 0 #3 January 13, 2008 Thanks for the reply. What exactly do you mean by 'not giving it so much leg'? lol. I have no problems throughout the jump then as soon as I drop my right arm to reach for my hackey I momentarily dip head down for a second or two and then level out when my hand is back out in front of me. Any ideas? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
verticalflyer 11 #4 January 13, 2008 bring your legs up behind you and keep them wide, bend at knee and relax them so they are not deflecting so much air. Keep a visual on horizon throughout.Dont just talk about it, Do it! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chrisgray 0 #5 January 13, 2008 Correct. If your legs are still straight out they are making greater lift than your upper body and pushing you head low. To reduce this you must bend your knees and get your feet up behind you. It may also help to give yourself a few more seconds during your wave off to transition back to a vertical fall. Emphasize the arch and hands above your head in box man to transition out of a tracking position. Good luck and long flights!WSI-6 / PFI-55 The Brothers Gray Wingsuit Academy http://www.myspace.com/cgwingsuitpilot http://www.myspace.com/thebrothersgray Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
174fps 1 #6 January 13, 2008 QuoteHi all, First post in the forum. I have recently purchased a pair of Birdman Tracking Pantz and they are awesome. However, due to the increased power in my legs, I tend to go a bit head down on deployment. Has anyone got any suggestions on how to remedy this? Blue skies arch..... look at the horizon and really push those hips down as you go for the pull Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dploi 0 #7 January 13, 2008 QuoteHi all, First post in the forum. I have recently purchased a pair of Birdman Tracking Pantz and they are awesome. However, due to the increased power in my legs, I tend to go a bit head down on deployment. Has anyone got any suggestions on how to remedy this? Blue skiesJust bend your knees a bit when deploying. Keep your stance wide for stability. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wrightskyguy 1 #8 January 14, 2008 I don't want to sound overly critical, but if you have to ask a question like that, maybe you should'nt be jumping with tracking pants. John Wright World's most beloved skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
leroydb 0 #9 January 14, 2008 With a response like that, "you" tend to make the other person put on a defensive roll. Sometimes people might need that, but only after other approaches are taken. The guy comes on here for technical advice and you go off "sounding overly critical." Saying " I don't want to sound overly critical," already tells me that you are asking forgiveness for being critical. There is probably a better way to get your point across without putting the other person on the defense. Seriously, they are only tracking pants... pull your stringLeroy ..I knew I was an unwanted baby when I saw my bath toys were a toaster and a radio... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bodypilot1 0 #10 January 14, 2008 Quote With a response like that, "you" tend to make the other person put on a defensive roll. Sometimes people might need that, but only after other approaches are taken. The guy comes on here for technical advice and you go off "sounding overly critical." Saying " I don't want to sound overly critical," already tells me that you are asking forgiveness for being critical. There is probably a better way to get your point across without putting the other person on the defense. Seriously, they are only tracking pants... pull your string Alot of people get on the "defensive roll' when they hear things they dont want to. You say, "Seriously, they are only tracking pants", perhaps he isnt' ready for at 79 jumps? Having to ask on the internet as to how to cure this may mean he is not getting the proper input from an experience jumper in his own DZ? Tracking pants allow alot of drive and drag on the lower end of the body during a skydive, and alot of jumpers think they should fly all the way until pull time before reaching back to pull. Treat tracking pants just like a wingsuit, do multiple practice pulls during the skydive! This way at the bottom end your very in control and NOT going headdown. This issue may have even been figured out on his first jump with them if he was briefed ahead of time on his first jump with them? Practice pulls...practise pulls and more practice pulls up high until you get it right.... Edwww.WestCoastWingsuits.com www.PrecisionSkydiving.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
leroydb 0 #11 January 14, 2008 All I was saying is that people take things differently and that maybe a differnt approach might have been more appropriate. FWIW: I agree that "tracking pants" are another thing added to difficulty of the jump.Leroy ..I knew I was an unwanted baby when I saw my bath toys were a toaster and a radio... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
The111 0 #12 January 14, 2008 QuoteAll I was saying is that people take things differently and that maybe a differnt approach might have been more appropriate. I think he stated his point about as delicately as possible.www.WingsuitPhotos.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wrightskyguy 1 #13 January 14, 2008 QuoteWith a response like that, "you" tend to make the other person put on a defensive roll. *** Maybe you're right. I probably should have just come right out and said what I was thinking when I first read his question which was, " where were you in the FJC when your instructor was talking about body position and the effects of the relative wind'? or "what have you been doing the last 80 skydives? I know how everyone likes to blow sunshine up peoples asses in these forums and I did'nt want to come across as a big meanie. I apologize, it won't happen again. John Wright World's most beloved skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skreamer 1 #14 January 14, 2008 Seriously, they are only tracking pants... pull your string *** There are further complications, when flown efficiently you need to use wingsuit style pull. I'm guessing that the OP is still bringing his left arm up when pulling. With an efficent track, even with the (mentioned) dropping of the knees it is rather important that the risers load evenly. I've seen enough off-headings to the left from people not doing wingsuit style pull to appreciate the importance. However doing the wingsuit pull when tracking can pitch you even more head down if you rush into it and aren't compensating with knees down/head up. Maybe if the OP could arrange for an experienced WS flyer to fly dirty and video them doing practice pulls and get that debriefed it might help. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Sabre2ooth 0 #15 January 14, 2008 I seemed to have caused quite a stir with my question. lol. Thanks for the input. It's good to hear the thoughts of the more experienced. In answer to some of your statements, I do not fly the pants all the way until pull time and did several practise pulls. I experimented with various things and focused on my arch and pulling my legs up behind me to reduce the extra drive from the pants. This did improve the situation I am since only going slightly head down (more rocking forward slightly) but would like to get this ironed out so I am as stable as possible at pull time. Thanks again for the response. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites LouDiamond 1 #16 January 14, 2008 Assume the normal box man position prior to deploying. Here is the key to fix your problem, make sure you get your left hand further out in front of your head when you go to reach back and pull with your right hand. Most skydivers put their left hand almost on top of their helmet when pulling and it doesn't provide enough of a counter for the increased drag caused by the Pantz. Give it a try and have fun. "It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required" Some people dream about flying, I live my dream SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites hjumper33 0 #17 January 14, 2008 I always pull right out of the track in mine and it provides better heading performance than when i close down. Youll get the most performance out of them when you have a bit of a larger top on, something even heavier than a long sleeve tshirt. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skreamer 1 #18 January 15, 2008 Quote I always pull right out of the track in mine and it provides better heading performance than when i close down. For sure, with your experience and currency you can make that decision. My observations of experienced jumpers' subterminal tracking deployments was not really valid for an inexperienced skydiver who has the option to go to boxman and pull a bit higher so I'd say Lou's advice for this person was more appropriate than mine. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites yuri_base 1 #19 January 15, 2008 Quote the increased drag caused by the Pantz I see a pattern now. Let me guess: it was you who wrote that piece in Skydiving magazine when Blade was introduced - that the new suit has "maximum lift and drag" (emphasis mine). The notion that the drag caused by tracking pants is increased is absurd (no matter how counterintuitive it may seem). Draw a simple diagram of lift, drag, and weight acting on a glider. In sustained flight, vector sum of all three is zero: L + D + W = 0, or W^2 = L^2 + D^2 Substituting the identity L = D*(L/D), we get W^2 = D^2*(1 + (L/D)^2) or D = W/sqrt(1 + (L/D)^2) The better L/D, the less the absolute value of drag! If, for example, you're tracking without tracking pants and your L/D = 0.7, the drag by the formula above is 88% of your weight. If in pants your L/D = 1.2, drag is 64% of weight. A great wingsuit flyer with L/D = 2.5 has drag of only 14% of his weight. To the original question: simply get used to deploying from full flight, the skill will become totally natural. The hardness of opening from full track is greatly exaggerated. Your body will adapt and learn how to take a slightly harder opening.Android+Wear/iOS/Windows apps: L/D Vario, Smart Altimeter, Rockdrop Pro, Wingsuit FAP iOS only: L/D Magic Windows only: WS Studio Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites LouDiamond 1 #20 January 15, 2008 QuoteI see a pattern now. Let me guess: it was you who wrote that piece in Skydiving magazine when Blade was introduced No, you are wrong. I did not write that. QuoteThe notion that the drag caused by tracking pants is increased is absurd Really, what do those baggy bell bottoms on many Freeflyers suits/pants create then? Perhaps it makes more sense to you to say additional or extra surface area. Keep in mind we are talking about while in the boxman position, not a tracking position. I'll let you draw the diagrams and I'll rely on my experience in flying Pantz and even larger items like a 120 pound rucksack between my legs. As to deploying from full flight, There is no positive reason to do it in a skydiving environment. The drawbacks far outweigh any rationalization for doing it both on the body and the equipment. Sticking the left arm (counter) out farther is the simple and correct answer to this problem. It's not rocket science and no math is required."It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required" Some people dream about flying, I live my dream SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites yuri_base 1 #21 January 15, 2008 Quote Sticking the left arm (counter) out farther is the simple and correct answer to this problem. By sticking the arm forward, you simply change the balance which with pants is shifted a little bit to your feet. It has nothing to do with the amount of drag created by pants but rather with center of of application of aerodynamic force. When falling straight down like freeflyers do, the drag is equal to your weight and does not depend on what clothes you're wearing. What baggy freefly pants do, they only change the distribution of drag. Whether you understand elementary physics or not. I witnessed an apotheosis of lack of basic aerodynamics understanding when I saw a couple of freeflyers watching the video of sitfly session in a wind tunnel. They were talking about cupping more air to get more lift.Android+Wear/iOS/Windows apps: L/D Vario, Smart Altimeter, Rockdrop Pro, Wingsuit FAP iOS only: L/D Magic Windows only: WS Studio Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites yuri_base 1 #22 January 15, 2008 Quote It's not rocket science It's not, indeed. It's aerodynamic science, not rocket. Perhaps, you were thinking rocket science when you made a bunch of physically incorrect statements in your book "Wingsuits in motion" (at least, 1st edition). From Chapter 1 "Aerodynamics" (sic!): Quote "While man may never fly completely on his own unassisted, we have learned the principals and physics behind flight." Who "we"? As follows from above and below, not you. Quote "Lift is a force that keeps an object in the air." Drag keeps us in the air, too. In fact, it's 100% drag that keeps belly- and freeflyers in the air. With wingsuits, it's the vector sum L + D that opposes the gravity. In fact, at L/D = 1, drag makes precisely the same contribution to oppose the gravity as the lift does. Quote "Drag increases exponentially with airspeed so the faster we fly the more important body position or shape is." First, not exponentially, but as a square of speed. Second, the lift increases in the same proportion, too. And third, we're not cars, so the speed is not determined by a pedal, it's determined by the very body position, so you can't say "I'm flying fast now, I must now make my body more aerodynamic." Cause and effect, eh? Quote "Wingsuits rely on gravity to generate thrust by turning the vertical speed into horizontal speed through the use of lift." By definition, thrust is the force opposing drag, that is, pointing in the same direction as your airspeed. Belly- or freeflyer has [gravitational] thrust equal to his weight. In the above example of wingsuiter at L/D = 2.5 having drag of 14% of his weight, thrust is equal to 14%, too. In fact, the higher L/D, the less thrust you have to work with. Lift is perpendicular to thrust and the relation is the opposite of what you described: the less the lift, the more the drag, the more the gravitational thrust. Quote "When the angle of attack is increased it also increases the amount of lift the wing produces upward." Increasing angle of attack increases (up to a point, usually approx. 45 degrees) the coefficient if lift, not the amount of lift. (Don't confuse non-powered gliding with a wingsuiter pinned stationary in a horizontal windtunnel.) Past the most efficient AoA (which is, by my observations, about 10-15 degrees) when L/D is maximum, the amount of lift decreases and drag increases. See the formula above: L/D goes down -> D goes up, L goes down, the vector sum of L and D is still equal and opposite to weight. Quote "If one were to have a wing suit alter its flight so that the head of the wing suit pilot was higher in relation to the relative wind, it would create more lift and drag." See above. L/D goes down -> you have more drag, less lift. Physics is not marketing, repeating "it has this AND this AND this" does not do you any good. Quote "The opposite of this is if the wing suit pilot's head were lower or his pitch decreased, there would be a reduction of drag and lift." Again, the amounts of lift and drag on a nonpowered glider in sustained flight are never changing in the same direction. Lift up, drag down, or lift down, drag up, but not "AND"! Selling the suits is not the same as physics of flight. Quote "When one has wings level to the earth the lift is in the direct opposition to gravity." Only in powered level flight. In nonpowered glider flight, lift and gravity are at an angle which is your glide angle. Quote "Continuing with this math suggests that in order to get the best glide ratio one must fly approximately 80mph with a vertical descent rate of approximately 30mph in order to get a glide ratio between 2 and 2.5." You can't be between 2 and 2.5 with 80 and 30, since 80/30 = 2.67. So, if you made so many physically absurd statements just on one page, isn't the problem that you "got captured in our own ignorance"? P.S. I hope you will understand the constructive criticism and do not take it personally. "When given advice from someone that is highly respected in their field, your best option is to listen." Android+Wear/iOS/Windows apps: L/D Vario, Smart Altimeter, Rockdrop Pro, Wingsuit FAP iOS only: L/D Magic Windows only: WS Studio Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites NWPoul 1 #23 January 15, 2008 Deamn you have it right... Even, when we deploy the canopy - we don't increase the Drag (only for a short time during deceleration)but opposite, we decrease it cos increasing the L/D)...Why drink and drive, if you can smoke and fly? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites yuri_base 1 #24 January 15, 2008 High five, man!!! The relationship W^2 = L^2 + D^2 is universal for any nonpowered sustained flight. It's nothing but Pythagorean theorem. If your exit weight is 200lbs and you're flying wingsuit at L/D = 2.0, your drag is D = 200/sqrt(1 + 2*2) = 89lbs and lift is L = sqrt(200^2 - 89^2) = 179lbs. If under canopy your L/D = 3.0, the total drag of you, lines, and the canopy is 200/sqrt(1 + 3*3) = 63lbs and lift is sqrt(200^2 - 63^2) = 190lbs. So although you have this huge piece of fabric above your head, total drag is less than when it was in a backpack. Same with Pantz. Better glide ratio = less total drag. Android+Wear/iOS/Windows apps: L/D Vario, Smart Altimeter, Rockdrop Pro, Wingsuit FAP iOS only: L/D Magic Windows only: WS Studio Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites LouDiamond 1 #25 January 16, 2008 Quote I hope you will understand the constructive criticism and do not take it personally Not at all. Thanks for taking the time to read the book and provide your feedback. It helps me to make the second edition (thats almost done) better."It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required" Some people dream about flying, I live my dream SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
skreamer 1 #14 January 14, 2008 Seriously, they are only tracking pants... pull your string *** There are further complications, when flown efficiently you need to use wingsuit style pull. I'm guessing that the OP is still bringing his left arm up when pulling. With an efficent track, even with the (mentioned) dropping of the knees it is rather important that the risers load evenly. I've seen enough off-headings to the left from people not doing wingsuit style pull to appreciate the importance. However doing the wingsuit pull when tracking can pitch you even more head down if you rush into it and aren't compensating with knees down/head up. Maybe if the OP could arrange for an experienced WS flyer to fly dirty and video them doing practice pulls and get that debriefed it might help. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sabre2ooth 0 #15 January 14, 2008 I seemed to have caused quite a stir with my question. lol. Thanks for the input. It's good to hear the thoughts of the more experienced. In answer to some of your statements, I do not fly the pants all the way until pull time and did several practise pulls. I experimented with various things and focused on my arch and pulling my legs up behind me to reduce the extra drive from the pants. This did improve the situation I am since only going slightly head down (more rocking forward slightly) but would like to get this ironed out so I am as stable as possible at pull time. Thanks again for the response. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LouDiamond 1 #16 January 14, 2008 Assume the normal box man position prior to deploying. Here is the key to fix your problem, make sure you get your left hand further out in front of your head when you go to reach back and pull with your right hand. Most skydivers put their left hand almost on top of their helmet when pulling and it doesn't provide enough of a counter for the increased drag caused by the Pantz. Give it a try and have fun. "It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required" Some people dream about flying, I live my dream SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hjumper33 0 #17 January 14, 2008 I always pull right out of the track in mine and it provides better heading performance than when i close down. Youll get the most performance out of them when you have a bit of a larger top on, something even heavier than a long sleeve tshirt. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skreamer 1 #18 January 15, 2008 Quote I always pull right out of the track in mine and it provides better heading performance than when i close down. For sure, with your experience and currency you can make that decision. My observations of experienced jumpers' subterminal tracking deployments was not really valid for an inexperienced skydiver who has the option to go to boxman and pull a bit higher so I'd say Lou's advice for this person was more appropriate than mine. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
yuri_base 1 #19 January 15, 2008 Quote the increased drag caused by the Pantz I see a pattern now. Let me guess: it was you who wrote that piece in Skydiving magazine when Blade was introduced - that the new suit has "maximum lift and drag" (emphasis mine). The notion that the drag caused by tracking pants is increased is absurd (no matter how counterintuitive it may seem). Draw a simple diagram of lift, drag, and weight acting on a glider. In sustained flight, vector sum of all three is zero: L + D + W = 0, or W^2 = L^2 + D^2 Substituting the identity L = D*(L/D), we get W^2 = D^2*(1 + (L/D)^2) or D = W/sqrt(1 + (L/D)^2) The better L/D, the less the absolute value of drag! If, for example, you're tracking without tracking pants and your L/D = 0.7, the drag by the formula above is 88% of your weight. If in pants your L/D = 1.2, drag is 64% of weight. A great wingsuit flyer with L/D = 2.5 has drag of only 14% of his weight. To the original question: simply get used to deploying from full flight, the skill will become totally natural. The hardness of opening from full track is greatly exaggerated. Your body will adapt and learn how to take a slightly harder opening.Android+Wear/iOS/Windows apps: L/D Vario, Smart Altimeter, Rockdrop Pro, Wingsuit FAP iOS only: L/D Magic Windows only: WS Studio Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LouDiamond 1 #20 January 15, 2008 QuoteI see a pattern now. Let me guess: it was you who wrote that piece in Skydiving magazine when Blade was introduced No, you are wrong. I did not write that. QuoteThe notion that the drag caused by tracking pants is increased is absurd Really, what do those baggy bell bottoms on many Freeflyers suits/pants create then? Perhaps it makes more sense to you to say additional or extra surface area. Keep in mind we are talking about while in the boxman position, not a tracking position. I'll let you draw the diagrams and I'll rely on my experience in flying Pantz and even larger items like a 120 pound rucksack between my legs. As to deploying from full flight, There is no positive reason to do it in a skydiving environment. The drawbacks far outweigh any rationalization for doing it both on the body and the equipment. Sticking the left arm (counter) out farther is the simple and correct answer to this problem. It's not rocket science and no math is required."It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required" Some people dream about flying, I live my dream SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
yuri_base 1 #21 January 15, 2008 Quote Sticking the left arm (counter) out farther is the simple and correct answer to this problem. By sticking the arm forward, you simply change the balance which with pants is shifted a little bit to your feet. It has nothing to do with the amount of drag created by pants but rather with center of of application of aerodynamic force. When falling straight down like freeflyers do, the drag is equal to your weight and does not depend on what clothes you're wearing. What baggy freefly pants do, they only change the distribution of drag. Whether you understand elementary physics or not. I witnessed an apotheosis of lack of basic aerodynamics understanding when I saw a couple of freeflyers watching the video of sitfly session in a wind tunnel. They were talking about cupping more air to get more lift.Android+Wear/iOS/Windows apps: L/D Vario, Smart Altimeter, Rockdrop Pro, Wingsuit FAP iOS only: L/D Magic Windows only: WS Studio Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
yuri_base 1 #22 January 15, 2008 Quote It's not rocket science It's not, indeed. It's aerodynamic science, not rocket. Perhaps, you were thinking rocket science when you made a bunch of physically incorrect statements in your book "Wingsuits in motion" (at least, 1st edition). From Chapter 1 "Aerodynamics" (sic!): Quote "While man may never fly completely on his own unassisted, we have learned the principals and physics behind flight." Who "we"? As follows from above and below, not you. Quote "Lift is a force that keeps an object in the air." Drag keeps us in the air, too. In fact, it's 100% drag that keeps belly- and freeflyers in the air. With wingsuits, it's the vector sum L + D that opposes the gravity. In fact, at L/D = 1, drag makes precisely the same contribution to oppose the gravity as the lift does. Quote "Drag increases exponentially with airspeed so the faster we fly the more important body position or shape is." First, not exponentially, but as a square of speed. Second, the lift increases in the same proportion, too. And third, we're not cars, so the speed is not determined by a pedal, it's determined by the very body position, so you can't say "I'm flying fast now, I must now make my body more aerodynamic." Cause and effect, eh? Quote "Wingsuits rely on gravity to generate thrust by turning the vertical speed into horizontal speed through the use of lift." By definition, thrust is the force opposing drag, that is, pointing in the same direction as your airspeed. Belly- or freeflyer has [gravitational] thrust equal to his weight. In the above example of wingsuiter at L/D = 2.5 having drag of 14% of his weight, thrust is equal to 14%, too. In fact, the higher L/D, the less thrust you have to work with. Lift is perpendicular to thrust and the relation is the opposite of what you described: the less the lift, the more the drag, the more the gravitational thrust. Quote "When the angle of attack is increased it also increases the amount of lift the wing produces upward." Increasing angle of attack increases (up to a point, usually approx. 45 degrees) the coefficient if lift, not the amount of lift. (Don't confuse non-powered gliding with a wingsuiter pinned stationary in a horizontal windtunnel.) Past the most efficient AoA (which is, by my observations, about 10-15 degrees) when L/D is maximum, the amount of lift decreases and drag increases. See the formula above: L/D goes down -> D goes up, L goes down, the vector sum of L and D is still equal and opposite to weight. Quote "If one were to have a wing suit alter its flight so that the head of the wing suit pilot was higher in relation to the relative wind, it would create more lift and drag." See above. L/D goes down -> you have more drag, less lift. Physics is not marketing, repeating "it has this AND this AND this" does not do you any good. Quote "The opposite of this is if the wing suit pilot's head were lower or his pitch decreased, there would be a reduction of drag and lift." Again, the amounts of lift and drag on a nonpowered glider in sustained flight are never changing in the same direction. Lift up, drag down, or lift down, drag up, but not "AND"! Selling the suits is not the same as physics of flight. Quote "When one has wings level to the earth the lift is in the direct opposition to gravity." Only in powered level flight. In nonpowered glider flight, lift and gravity are at an angle which is your glide angle. Quote "Continuing with this math suggests that in order to get the best glide ratio one must fly approximately 80mph with a vertical descent rate of approximately 30mph in order to get a glide ratio between 2 and 2.5." You can't be between 2 and 2.5 with 80 and 30, since 80/30 = 2.67. So, if you made so many physically absurd statements just on one page, isn't the problem that you "got captured in our own ignorance"? P.S. I hope you will understand the constructive criticism and do not take it personally. "When given advice from someone that is highly respected in their field, your best option is to listen." Android+Wear/iOS/Windows apps: L/D Vario, Smart Altimeter, Rockdrop Pro, Wingsuit FAP iOS only: L/D Magic Windows only: WS Studio Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NWPoul 1 #23 January 15, 2008 Deamn you have it right... Even, when we deploy the canopy - we don't increase the Drag (only for a short time during deceleration)but opposite, we decrease it cos increasing the L/D)...Why drink and drive, if you can smoke and fly? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
yuri_base 1 #24 January 15, 2008 High five, man!!! The relationship W^2 = L^2 + D^2 is universal for any nonpowered sustained flight. It's nothing but Pythagorean theorem. If your exit weight is 200lbs and you're flying wingsuit at L/D = 2.0, your drag is D = 200/sqrt(1 + 2*2) = 89lbs and lift is L = sqrt(200^2 - 89^2) = 179lbs. If under canopy your L/D = 3.0, the total drag of you, lines, and the canopy is 200/sqrt(1 + 3*3) = 63lbs and lift is sqrt(200^2 - 63^2) = 190lbs. So although you have this huge piece of fabric above your head, total drag is less than when it was in a backpack. Same with Pantz. Better glide ratio = less total drag. Android+Wear/iOS/Windows apps: L/D Vario, Smart Altimeter, Rockdrop Pro, Wingsuit FAP iOS only: L/D Magic Windows only: WS Studio Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LouDiamond 1 #25 January 16, 2008 Quote I hope you will understand the constructive criticism and do not take it personally Not at all. Thanks for taking the time to read the book and provide your feedback. It helps me to make the second edition (thats almost done) better."It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required" Some people dream about flying, I live my dream SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
