Choosing a Main canopy

[EricaH 0]

K, so I'm moving from 7 cell to 9 cell. Not now, but later spring when I'm re-current. and later in the year I'll work on down sizing.

My question is this, what's the difference between canopies - honestly.

I'm not too keen on big swoops or hook-turn landings. I like nice easy straight in apporach. However, up in the air, I love more zippy turns & what-not.

I jumped a Safire 2 & love the responsiveness of it (granted there was a big downsize too) up in the air - pinpoint radical turns, near-stalls, everything & the ability to land w/ the down-cross-up wind landing pattern easily.

Everyone is suggesting trying Saber2 & others; but my curiosity is what's really so different. If your not a hot shot canopy pilot, will I even notice much?

I have no problem demoing all kinds of gear - but why?

And if there's a link to a thread that already goes over the different canopies flight characteristics, feel free to point me to them - please!

There is no can't. Only lack of knowledge or fear. Only you can fix your fear.

PMS #227 (just like the TV show)

[skybytch 259]

Is there a particular reason for making a switch - i.e. is there something about the 7 cell you're jumping that you don't like? If all you want is faster turns you may find what you are looking for in a smaller 7 cell.

That's why to demo - four different people can recommend to you four different "best canopies" but you won't know which is "best" for you until you've had a chance to fly them all.

[TheMonkey 0]

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I have no problem demoing all kinds of gear - but why?

to see how different canopies fly, and whether you like the way they fly or not

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Never argue with an idiot, they will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience!

[smooth 0]

Erica - aha - a reason to have a real conversation!!

I'm in the market for a 9-cell canopy myself and we can compare notes. I just returned a demo Sabre2-150 BTW: there's a wealth of infomation on this subject already on dz.com.

For what it's worth, I've jumped . . .
7-cell (Triathlon, Spectre, Diablo)
9-cell (Sabre, Sabre2) and I'm gonna try the Pilot.

[AndyMan 7]

The zippiest turning canopy I've ever jumped was an Aerodyne Diablo - an eliptical 7-cell - not THAT different then a triathlon. Nor that different from a Stileto. It's what you'd get if a Stileto mated with a Triathlon.

First of all, if we're going to talk about canopies - let's rule out size. Lets assume that that the canopies we're talking about are all the exact same size - which is actually an innacurate assumption, because even those that're labeled the same are measured differently.

You're jumping a spectre, which is a mostly square seven cell. I said square even though it's clearly more rectangular, that's just the way things are. It's got some curve to the leading and trailing edges, but not a lot so its generally considered to be perfectly rectangular.

Similar canopies are the Aerodyne Triathlon and Icarus Omega.

All three canopies are generally considered relatively good allround canopies, relatively docile. The seven cell design gives them a bit of a steeper glide then nine cells. This makes them popular for people who value accuracy, which is not so popular in the fields of Illinois, but if you jump somewhere where landing in sombody's backyard is a realistic possibility, it's a good thing.

Most seven cells are square. An exception is the Aerodyne Diablo - which offers a fully eliptical seven cell. The eliptical shape of the wing gives it very fast diving turns, making it a half decent swoop monster. Definately high performance. Because it's still a seven cell, it's got a steep dive.

Nine cell canopies generally have a better glide then seven cells ones.

For years, the defacto nine cell was the PD Saber. Again, perfectly rectangular (square), it got a nice glide and powerful flare. Again, they're relatively stable in their turns and similar to your seven cell in how it handles turns. The only knock off I've seen is the Monarch.

Once you start to add some curvature to the leading and/or trailing edge of the Square nine cell, you get the "tapered" nine cell. These include the Safire, Saber2, and PISA's Hornet. All three canopies are generally the same but with different manufacturer specific tweaks. The curvature of the leading and trailing edge makes the canopies more egg-shaped, and this shape results in very rapid turns which lose altitude quickly. They're "medium" performance canopies that a lot of people use to hone their high performance landings before going to something fully eliptical. At a light wingloading, they can be good beginner canopies. At a heavy wingloading, they can be high performance monsters.

Stiletto/Crossfire/Cobalt/PISA Heatwave. These are fully eliptical nine cell canopies, which are clealry high performance canopies. Their egg-shape is more pronounced then the previous group, which makes them turn even that much more faster, and dive at the ground that much quicker.

The last group is the cross-braced canopies, which include Icarus VX/FX, Precisions XOAS, PD's Velocity. These canopies have modified noses which help them maintain truely ludicrous wingloadings. They dive like a mo-fo, turn on a dime and break a whole lot of femurs. They're only made in small sizes - I've yet to find one I've been willing to jump.

I've left out air-locked canopies, like the PD-vengence, and Big Air Sports Lotus and Samurai. The air-locks help the canopy maintain inflation through turbulence. Otherwise, the Lotus is like a Saber2, and the Vengence and Samuari are like Stiletos.

_Am

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You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[AndyMan 7]

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I have no problem demoing all kinds of gear - but why?

Because it's fun. No matter how much you read from gas-bags like me, you'll only really understand it when you experience it yourself.

_Am

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You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[EricaH 0]

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to see how different canopies fly

that's what I'm asking... if someone would kindly point out to me the differences for which I should be looking.

unless I do 10 jumps on 1 canopy on a day & then 10 jumps on another the very next day, I highly doubt I'll remember how one was to compair it to the other. and considering that I rarely do over 6 jumps in a day, it'll take me weeks w/ many days in between to demo all kinds. So the one done the first weekend of a month will have faded from memory or the memory will have warped by the time I get to the 4th weekend of the month.

Smooth - yea! very good reason, should be an interesting next season!

There is no can't. Only lack of knowledge or fear. Only you can fix your fear.

PMS #227 (just like the TV show)

[EricaH 0]

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No matter how much you read from gas-bags like me

But thanks for being a there for me gas-bag - there's all kinds of ways to learn. and i think if you go into something knowing what to look for, you'll take more out of the experience.

There is no can't. Only lack of knowledge or fear. Only you can fix your fear.

PMS #227 (just like the TV show)

[Samurai136 0]

What kind of wingloading did you have on the Safire 2 compared to what you usually jump?

What size canopy are you looking to jump?

Ken

"Buttons aren't toys." - Trillian
Ken

[EricaH 0]

Currently I'm @ a 1.02 (Spectre 190) & jumped the Safire2 169, then 149. It was the 149's in flight characteristics that I loved (1.38 wl). the turns are amazingly fun!! And the difference in response unbelievable.

As some background, I understand that's a huge step & that's why I'm changing planeforms first, then downsizing more slowly (already got rheemed out in talkback).

I'm not looking for a canopy that has hot landings - I want one that can do simple landings. Also, no hard openings (I will not be trying the Stilleto).

There is no can't. Only lack of knowledge or fear. Only you can fix your fear.

PMS #227 (just like the TV show)

[AndyMan 7]

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'm not looking for a canopy that has hot landings - I want one that can do simple landings. Also, no hard openings (I will not be trying the Stilleto).

Not that I'm going to encourage you to jump the Stileto, I absolutely love the way that it opens. Soft and gentle every time.

You need to remember historical context - when the Stileto came out everyone was still jumping square canopies. The eliptical canopy was brand new. At this time, a lot of people were still jumping ripcords, too. Going for the ripcord made people unstable at pull time. People were still being taught to look over their shoulder to make themselves untstable at deployment time. All of these added up to a situation that people were not even in their harness through the opening, and spinning malfunctions were common. The Stiletto got branded the "spinetto".

We don't teach people to look over their shoulders during opening any more. We don't teach "Look, Reach, Pull", at pull time. People are more cautious of being stable in the harness, but more importantly people have jumped modern canopies their entire lives. Being even in the harness is natural to todays jumpers.

I don't think the Stileto is much more prone to a spinning malfunction then a sabre2, safire, or any other modernly designed canopy.

I've chopped my triathlon from spinning line twists. I haven't chopped my stiletto. Now, Stiletos are known for having consistently good openings.

_Am

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You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[Samurai136 0]

The Sabre2 and Lotus (airlocks/Big Air Sportz) are worth trying if you liked the Safire2. Pick a wingloading you feel comfortable with and go for it!

Was the landing on the Safire 149 a "hot landing" for you?

Ken

"Buttons aren't toys." - Trillian
Ken

[skybytch 259]

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It's got some curve to the leading and trailing edges, but not a lot so its generally considered to be perfectly rectangular.

Nope. It's considered to be "tapered" or "semi-elliptical." Compare size to size to a Triathlon (which is considered to be rectangular) and you'll see the difference right away; due to the "taper" the Spectre turns faster and seems to give more predictable openings.

Same with the Icarus Omni (which has superceded the Omega - also note that Omega's are sized like original Safires); it's "semi elliptical", not rectangular.

The "taper" on Sabre2's/Safires/Hornets/etc is no more radical than the "taper" on Spectres/Omnis.

[EricaH 0]

Ken, Lisa & Andy, just wanted to say thank you all so much for the info (had to leave work a tad early yesterday).

Lisa esp cleared a lot up, people were swearing up & down that the Safire2 was so much more eliptical than my Spectre. I didn't think so, but don't know enough to argue.

The Safire2 149 landings were not "hot". I was nervous, but listened to the demo guy when he said to pay attn to the vertical speed & try to not focus on the fact that the horizontal speed is much faster (don't let it trip me out). The low wind landings were wonderful, small (10ft) surf was fun . On the one NO wind landing @ dusk, I put my knees down. Vertical desent was a tad too fast to stay standing.

Ken thanks for the comparison of Sabre2 & Lotus - hadn't even had Lotus or the fact that they're air locked pointed out to me.

Andy, I won't rule out the Stileto I guess.

Jeesh, there's just so many!

edited to add...
Another interesting thing is that I was so excited bout getting to travel further (ie. not sink as quickly) on the 9-cell over the 7, but others also swore all over that the glide ratio was the same & I wasn't traveling any further. But from actually reading in this forum, it appears that my thougth/feeling was correct - , may be I do know everything (KIDDING!!) I know I know next to nothing!

There is no can't. Only lack of knowledge or fear. Only you can fix your fear.

PMS #227 (just like the TV show)

[PhreeZone 15]

Some 7 cells do have the same or better glide angles then 9 cells do to their design. The Spectre is one of those canopies. It has a slightly better glide then a Sabre. Something like a Lightning comes straight down.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[EricaH 0]

Thank you... this is the kind of info I was wanting to get before going out & demoing all of the many many canopies.

Does anyone know, is there somekind of site that would have direct comparisons? (like some car, shoe, hote & phone sites)

There is no can't. Only lack of knowledge or fear. Only you can fix your fear.

PMS #227 (just like the TV show)

[PhreeZone 15]

Every canopy is different and everyone has different impressions of them. Do the research and get out and demo the canopies that interest you. I demoed 8 canopies last summer and only liked 3 of them.

Make notes after landing of your impressions of the canopy. Open at the lowest of about 6000 feet with the new canopies and PLAY hard. Learn the canopy.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[EricaH 0]

Thanks! With the Safire2, I pulled @ 7.5 - getting out after the tandems was weird! I loved playing w/ that canopy & discovered why people enjoy their time spent there.

Just didn't write anything down... good idea for next time!

How many jumps did you avg/canopy & did you do different ones in the same day/weekend?

There is no can't. Only lack of knowledge or fear. Only you can fix your fear.

PMS #227 (just like the TV show)

[PhreeZone 15]

I'd do 3-5 jumps on each canopy and played hard with them. all 8 were over the course of the summer but I can still remember how each one flew and how the compared to each other and my everyday canopy.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[kaerock 1]

That's an interesting assertion you make about Stilletos not being much more prone to spinning than a Saber2 et al. The party line generally seems to be to the contrary...making Stilettos orders of magnitude more dangerous than it's tapered cousins. Personally, I couldn't comment on this as I've only flown Stilettos and find them quite stable as I'm used to them. However, no one has yet to actually quantify how much more spinnable a Stiletto is compared to a Saber2.

Any more thoughts?

-R

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'm not looking for a canopy that has hot landings - I want one that can do simple landings. Also, no hard openings (I will not be trying the Stilleto).

Not that I'm going to encourage you to jump the Stileto, I absolutely love the way that it opens. Soft and gentle every time.

You need to remember historical context - when the Stileto came out everyone was still jumping square canopies. The eliptical canopy was brand new. At this time, a lot of people were still jumping ripcords, too. Going for the ripcord made people unstable at pull time. People were still being taught to look over their shoulder to make themselves untstable at deployment time. All of these added up to a situation that people were not even in their harness through the opening, and spinning malfunctions were common. The Stiletto got branded the "spinetto".

We don't teach people to look over their shoulders during opening any more. We don't teach "Look, Reach, Pull", at pull time. People are more cautious of being stable in the harness, but more importantly people have jumped modern canopies their entire lives. Being even in the harness is natural to todays jumpers.

I don't think the Stileto is much more prone to a spinning malfunction then a sabre2, safire, or any other modernly designed canopy.

I've chopped my triathlon from spinning line twists. I haven't chopped my stiletto. Now, Stiletos are known for having consistently good openings.

_Am

You be the king and I'll overthrow your government. --KRS-ONE

[AndyMan 7]

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The party line generally seems to be to the contrary...

My thoughts are that the party line is wrong, or at least out of date.

The Stileto gained its reputation for being a "spinner" at a very different time, when comparatively it WAS a spinned. Now it's not that different then the rest.

Others experience may vary, though.

I'd love to see accurate numbers on rate of malfunctions, but I don't see any organizations stepping up to count those numbers.

That said, at my DZ the most commonly chopped canopy seems to be the Cobalt, which is odd as there's only 3 of them... I think each one has been chopped once. My DZ hasn't had a Stiletto chopped this year, even though there's probably 15 of them in active every day use. We haven't had any Saber 2's chopped, I don't think... We've had a handful of Velocities chopped, in addition to the Cobalt.

I'm not suggesting the Stileto is appropriate for novices, clearly its other characteristics make this a poor choice.

I do think the opening characteristics are outstanding.

And yes, I jummp with a side-mounted camera. I would be the first to get rid of the Stileto if I though I was risking an entaglement... Instead, the openings are consitently soft and relatively predictable.

_Am

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You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[smooth 0]

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That said, at my DZ the most commonly chopped canopy seems to be the Cobalt, which is odd as there's only 3 of them... I think each one has been chopped once. My DZ hasn't had a Stiletto chopped this year, even though there's probably 15 of them in active every day use. We haven't had any Saber 2's chopped, I don't think... We've had a handful of Velocities chopped, in addition to the Cobalt.

And maybe Diablos after that!!

[tbrown 26]

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Thank you... this is the kind of info I was wanting to get before going out & demoing all of the many many canopies.

I'm doing a lot of renting and demo-ing, as I've just returned to the sport after many years and want to check out several kinds of canopies before I (can afford to) buy a rig. I'm bigger and heavier than you, with an exit weight of 245, so I started out with 230 Spectres. Docile or not, they're still hotter than anything we had 23 years ago, I promise you !! Once I got my landings down, I've sized down to the 210 Spectre and have been trying out a 210 Sabre2 and really want to try the Pilot as well. Not sure if I like the seven or nine cell better yet. When I get good with those, I'll probably try a 190 sometime next year, but for my size and age I don't see going any smaller. Ditto for the elliptical swoopwings, I'll leave those for the young hippies to fool with. I'm happy just to be back in freefall, but I do like a sporty ride down to a soft landing.

Demo all you want before you make up your mind. Buying's like getting married, when you wake up in the morning, it's all yours, like it or not...

Your humble servant.....Professor Gravity !

[EricaH 0]

Welcome back to the sport! Have lotsalotsa fund w/ us hippies up in the air - yahoo!!

Sounds like your going a very good & safe route.

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Buying's like getting married, when you wake up in the morning, it's all yours, like it or not...

gack.. don't say that, I'm too commitment phobic to think like that. Though it's easier to sell a main than a spouse I'd imagine

There is no can't. Only lack of knowledge or fear. Only you can fix your fear.

PMS #227 (just like the TV show)

[riddler 0]

Erica - in general it's hard to compare 7 cells to 9 cells. If they were all made by the same manufacturer, then it would be easier, but different canopies have different flight characteristics.

That having been said , I will say that I own a both a Triathalon (7 cell) and a Lotus (9 cell). In my experience with both, the 9-cell glides much better, so I had to retrain myself a bit on landings.

The 7-cell seems to come in at the same angle, even when I flare. It changes slightly, but not much, so the "spot" where I'm landing stays about the same, even after I start to flare. In other words, the glide angle, or angle that I am approaching the ground stays about the same throughout the landing. This is also in part because I am loaded at 1:1. It also means I use a smooth consistent flare from top to bottom of brakes when I land.

The 9-cell canopy is MUCH different. This is in part because I have a higher (1.3) wingload. But it is also due to the flatter canopy (9-cells don't "bow" as much as 7-cells). If I use a smooth, consistent flare on this canopy, I usually crash. So I started doing a 2-stage flare. The first stage, I would pull down to just above my shoulders. This would really flatten out my glide so I was moving more across the surface of the ground. Then I would have to hold it there, gliding along, until the speed bleeds off and I slowly lose altitude. Now, at this stage, if I pull down too far, my body pops back up and I might crash. Likewise, if I let up a little on the toggles, I'll touch down too quickly while still having a lot of forward speed, so I'll definitely crash. So I had to learn to balance between the two. Find the right toggle input for that first stage that wasn't too much or too little. And also keeping in mind that I will be zooming across the ground a bit, so I shouldn't look down and I need to be patient and let the speed slowly bleed off. The second stage is right when I plan to touch down. 2-3 seconds prior, my arms are already halfway down from the first stage, so I just finish it off with a smooth consistent flare from that point down. Flaring during the second stage is just the same as landing the 7-cell - finish with a smooth, consistent flare.

And now that I have about 100 jumps on this 9-cell, I am refining my landing to a 3-stage flare. The first stage is only about 2-3 inches, which does most of the planing out, so now I'm moving almost horizontal to the ground. The second stage flaring to just above my shoulders, and during this stage, I wait patiently until most of my forward speed is bled off. I use that when I start to get close to the ground and I want my glide angle to get really flat, and wait for forward speed to slow down. The third stage is just to finish, and a smooth, consistent flare from my shoulders all the way down. This is when I'm low and slow and I want to get the canopy behind me somewhat to really put on the brakes.

On a nine-cell or a high wingloading, you can't be afraid of speed on landing. Speed = lift, so the more forward speed you have, the less vertical speed. Then the trick is to be patient and wait for that forward speed to bleed off before you finish the flare. Ideally your forward and vertical speed will be zero at the point your feet touch the ground.

BTW - on turning. In my (limited) experience, 7-cell vs. 9-cell doesn't make a big difference in turning. That has much more to do with the ratio of wingspan (left to right) to the length (front to back) of the canopy. Diablo is a good example of a canopy that turns fast because it has a low ratio of span to length.