aber_aos 0 #1 June 9, 2006 Hi, I'm jumping a 'standard' vector 3 with my wingsuit (a phantom) but have been having some serious hesitations on opening. Both the main and reserve are the correct size for the container. If I pull in a fast track and collapsing the wings I have been getting the D-bag spinning off my back and giving me lots of twists. If I collapse the wings and let myself sink out in an arch for a few seconds before the pull I get a hesitation on opening. I jumped with a rear facing camera to see what was happening and it is this: I have a fully inflated pilot chute at full bridle extension, which has pulled the pin and the flaps are slightly open, but the D-bag stays in the container for between 1 and 4 seconds. The bridle never goes slack, so it doesn't seem to be an issue of my burble affecting it. Once the bag does come out of the container it gives me a nice opening. However, a 4 second delay (and the fear that the next time it may be longer, or may stick until I have to pull my reserve) is not acceptable. So, what modifications do people recommend to stop the hesitation? I've looked on the RWS website and they don't mention anything (that I can find). I've heard that cutting the corners of the main tray can help; how far should they be cut down? Is it all the way to the tray, or only some percentage of the distance. People have mentioned longer bridles, but the fully inflated pilot chute suggests that may not help in this case. Any suggestions would be very much appreciated. If anyone can tell me what RWS do for wingsuit mods that would also be very helpful. Thanks Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mccordia 73 #2 June 9, 2006 Packing 'grommit to pin' also seems to help a lot of people (if you can fit your main/D-bag in there that way) That way the bag doesnt have to make a 90 to 180 degree 'flip' if you're pulling with a lot of forward movement still going on...JC FlyLikeBrick I'm an Athlete? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LouDiamond 1 #3 June 9, 2006 Definately try packing grommet to pin if the container permits. If you are unsure what that looks like , do a search in this forum and several pictures will come up. As for cut corners, it is the seams of the lower part of the pack tray that are "opened" up. The corners of the pack tray should remain intact (sewn) for about the last inch or two, depending on how your container is constructed. Fully open corners is not recommended and again, there is a good deal of info why not to do it in the forums as well. One thing you didn't mention (that could potentially fix this problem)is the size of your pilot chute."It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required" Some people dream about flying, I live my dream SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
moonglo 0 #4 June 9, 2006 I had my rigger open up the bottom inside corner seams of my Vector 3 down to about 1" above the end of that seam, so the pack tray opens almost fully while still providing bridle protection when sitflying. (my rig is slightly overstuffed- it was built for a 150/143, I have a 150/150/cypres and the reserve is a brick) It's a bit more work to make it look good and close right with all the flaps tucked in, but not at all hard to do. I also use a 9' bridle and 32" ZP p/c with a lightweight monkeyfist that I ordered from RWS. Worked great for 200+ wingsuit jumps so far! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites aber_aos 0 #5 June 9, 2006 Thanks for the information (everyone). The pilotchute is the standard sized ZeroP option from RWS. Am I understanding your suggestion correctly, that I should get the corners (partially) cut AND pack grommet to pin? It's a 'do both' rather than a 'do one or the other'? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mccordia 73 #6 June 9, 2006 Doing both works, but I only do the 'pack grommit to pin' part (no cut corners) and have always have nice clean openings... Only one or two second hasitations on opening have been when I packed it grommit to reserve (like intended) for a freefly jump, and went wingsuiting instead...testing on the ground (pulling my bridle/pilot at a 45 degree angle backwards) seemed to show that my main/bag sort of 'locked' in the packing tray...this doesnt happen when its packed 'standing up' since then I never bothered packing different again, and always do grommit to pin (also for 'regular-old-fashioned' freefall) Edit: And doing a good powerfull throw also helps.. A friend of mine kept having bad openings (lots of twists) so we mounted his video-camera backwards to film his pull/opening etc. and we noticed that he just did a weak throw, and the pilot did a small dance on his wing, but, right foot, and THEN hit clean air, while dancing all over the place, twising the whole thing up as it came out.. Getting some video of yourself opening (backward mounted camera, or someone you can trust skill-wise not to fly INTO your canopy when you open) and getting some good material to see and analise what you are doing might also help...its always a combo of material and technique edit 2: A larger pilotchute helps it catch air easyer, as you will be having a much larger burble then you'd normaly have on a reg. freefall jumpJC FlyLikeBrick I'm an Athlete? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites aber_aos 0 #7 June 9, 2006 Thanks for your reply. Regarding the larger pilotchute, I have a couple of questions: 1) Does the larger pilotchute cause problems on non-wingsuit jumps? I seem to recall from reading the BASE forums that pilotchutes can be too large as well as too small 2) Is the larger pilotchute an attempt to overcome the problem of the main tray corners or is it to help with the lower air speed at deployment time? Presumably the deplyment problems are down to the direction of the pull from the pilotchute not being perpendicular to the rig, and a reduced air speed. Did you make all of the changes to your rig (pc, bridle, cut corners) at the same time, or did you do them incrementally? If it was incrementally could you tell me what effect each change made? Thanks Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites aber_aos 0 #8 June 9, 2006 Yes, I agree with your comments about the weak throw. It's something I had started doing on normal flat-fly jumps, but got cured of quite quickly. With the wingsuit I am always very careful to throw the pc very strongly. In the rear facing videos I've taken the pc always shows full inflation instantly and stays fully inflated throughout the entire deployment sequence; it never comes near to my body. Unfortunately it sits there at full bridle extension being towed while it is fully inflated. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites SkymonkeyONE 3 #9 June 9, 2006 There are many, many people who are jumping cut-down seams in their "closed corners" rigs (RWS Micron and Vector 3, Wings, Mirage, etc) without any problems whatsoever during their "regular" skydives. It's a very simple modification. Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites LouDiamond 1 #10 June 9, 2006 Pictures of cut corners and packing Grommet to pin can be seen HERE as well as a Birdman specific D-bag."It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required" Some people dream about flying, I live my dream SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites moonglo 0 #11 June 9, 2006 I tried packing grommet to pin, then cut corners, then the larger p/c and longer bridal. I was jumping a GTi back then, a Vampire 1 now. Packing grommet to pin helped a bit with line twists. The cut corners made deployments much quicker and less line twists. The new p/c made everything go smoothly and just felt better. I use the same set up for freefall and it works fine. The p/c is the biggest size recommended for my canopy (Sabre2 150). Be sure to slow down before pulling no mater what the discipline! I found that I did not need to pack grommet to pin as I did with my Vector 2, and it was also very hard to close the rig that way as the dbag didn't fit in the pack tray well. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites robibird 2 #12 June 9, 2006 Question! Your V3 is brand new or not?! In case you jumping w brand new rig - don't worry, it will take about 10-15 jumps and after it will start work just fine - w no hesitation. In case your rig is not new - just keep the ''arch'' method for pull sequence but change the PC! Take the one which is about 1 or 2 inch bigger , not more than 2 inch. This will solve the problem Best regardsRobert Pecnik [email protected] www.phoenix-fly.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites TomAiello 25 #13 June 9, 2006 Quote1) Does the larger pilotchute cause problems on non-wingsuit jumps? I seem to recall from reading the BASE forums that pilotchutes can be too large as well as too small The pilot chute size issues on BASE jumps don't apply on skydives, and vice versa. On a skydive, an oversized PC will tend to strip the line stows off your bag, giving you line dump (and hence usually a fairly hard opening). On a BASE jump (where there is no bag) an oversized PC will distort the pack job as it moves to line stretch (because it's ripping the bridle attachment and center cell out of the pack job), which can actually lead to slower openings (and worse heading, increased chances for a line over or tension knot, etc). The PC size issues don't translate between skydiving and BASE very well because of the differences in the deployment systems (primarily the absence or presence of the deployment bag).-- Tom Aiello [email protected] SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites phoenixlpr 0 #14 June 9, 2006 QuoteOn a skydive, an oversized PC will tend to strip the line stows off your bag, giving you line dump (and hence usually a fairly hard opening). Really? I have 200+ jumps with a 38-40" F111 PC without any problem. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites The111 0 #15 June 9, 2006 QuoteQuoteOn a skydive, an oversized PC will tend to strip the line stows off your bag, giving you line dump (and hence usually a fairly hard opening). Really? I have 200+ jumps with a 38-40" F111 PC without any problem. I also was curious about your statement, Tom. I'm not a rigger or a parachute expert, but what you said does not make sense to me. The purpose of a pilot chute is to remove the lines from the stows. Doing that a little faster won't hurt, I wouldn't think. Can you elaborate at all?www.WingsuitPhotos.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites aber_aos 0 #16 June 9, 2006 The V3 has got about 130 jumps on it. Are you suggesting only a bigger PC, or a bigger PC and the cut corners that people have suggested above? Thanks Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites aber_aos 0 #17 June 9, 2006 QuoteQuoteQuoteOn a skydive, an oversized PC will tend to strip the line stows off your bag, giving you line dump (and hence usually a fairly hard opening). Really? I have 200+ jumps with a 38-40" F111 PC without any problem. I also was curious about your statement, Tom. I'm not a rigger or a parachute expert, but what you said does not make sense to me. The purpose of a pilot chute is to remove the lines from the stows. Doing that a little faster won't hurt, I wouldn't think. Can you elaborate at all? I think Tom's point is that the lines should be released from the stows in the correct sequence and that too big a pilot chute can cause the stows to dump lines out of sequence due to the higher accelerations involved. I believe that if the mouth lock stows get dumped you can get the canopy out of the bag and inflating before you get line stretch. You can then get a viciously hard opening causing damage to you and the equipment. If I'm wrong I hope someone will correct me. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites LukeH 0 #18 June 10, 2006 QuoteI have 200+ jumps with a 38-40" F111 PC without any problem. why are you using a PC that big? did you purposely go for that size or did you just happen to have one lying around? i use the standard PC that came with my Javelin but got the bridle extended to 3m from pin to PC. I also pack gromet up. for base jumping i use a vented 36" ZP with large hold mesh. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites robibird 2 #19 June 10, 2006 Every pilot chute tend to strip/brake what ever is attached on it. BASE PC tend to strip the center cell, tend to strip the lines out of the tail pocket, etc... On skydive system PC tend to strip the bag from the lines (not opposite ), tend to strip the top of the canopy from the bottom platform, etc... ''Striping'' happening on every jump, regardless of the PC size. It is about proper construction and technology to prevent striping damage the parachute / harness/ jumper. Why we playing w different sizes of PC or bags , etc...?! What every jumper ( rigger ) is trying to do, is to find the balance which would work the best. Balance between fast and soft opening and fast and hard one. In our nature is to have fairly fast opening , but soft of course. The smaller PC is - the cleaner opening will be! !That is very simple rule from theoretical point of view, because it is the less power involved which works in opposite directions. Size of PC has nothing w line dump as long you have proper rubber band configuration. If rubber bands are bad than line dump will occur regardless of PC size (not thinking to compare 24'' and 48'' of course) Another point is that the PC task on both types of jumps ( BASE -Skydiving ) are the same!! PC's only job is to extract the parachute to the line stretch. When line stretch is made the PC has nothing to do w opening any more ( oscillation of PC in BASE here is not the subject) RegardsRobert Pecnik [email protected] www.phoenix-fly.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. 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aber_aos 0 #5 June 9, 2006 Thanks for the information (everyone). The pilotchute is the standard sized ZeroP option from RWS. Am I understanding your suggestion correctly, that I should get the corners (partially) cut AND pack grommet to pin? It's a 'do both' rather than a 'do one or the other'? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mccordia 73 #6 June 9, 2006 Doing both works, but I only do the 'pack grommit to pin' part (no cut corners) and have always have nice clean openings... Only one or two second hasitations on opening have been when I packed it grommit to reserve (like intended) for a freefly jump, and went wingsuiting instead...testing on the ground (pulling my bridle/pilot at a 45 degree angle backwards) seemed to show that my main/bag sort of 'locked' in the packing tray...this doesnt happen when its packed 'standing up' since then I never bothered packing different again, and always do grommit to pin (also for 'regular-old-fashioned' freefall) Edit: And doing a good powerfull throw also helps.. A friend of mine kept having bad openings (lots of twists) so we mounted his video-camera backwards to film his pull/opening etc. and we noticed that he just did a weak throw, and the pilot did a small dance on his wing, but, right foot, and THEN hit clean air, while dancing all over the place, twising the whole thing up as it came out.. Getting some video of yourself opening (backward mounted camera, or someone you can trust skill-wise not to fly INTO your canopy when you open) and getting some good material to see and analise what you are doing might also help...its always a combo of material and technique edit 2: A larger pilotchute helps it catch air easyer, as you will be having a much larger burble then you'd normaly have on a reg. freefall jumpJC FlyLikeBrick I'm an Athlete? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
aber_aos 0 #7 June 9, 2006 Thanks for your reply. Regarding the larger pilotchute, I have a couple of questions: 1) Does the larger pilotchute cause problems on non-wingsuit jumps? I seem to recall from reading the BASE forums that pilotchutes can be too large as well as too small 2) Is the larger pilotchute an attempt to overcome the problem of the main tray corners or is it to help with the lower air speed at deployment time? Presumably the deplyment problems are down to the direction of the pull from the pilotchute not being perpendicular to the rig, and a reduced air speed. Did you make all of the changes to your rig (pc, bridle, cut corners) at the same time, or did you do them incrementally? If it was incrementally could you tell me what effect each change made? Thanks Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
aber_aos 0 #8 June 9, 2006 Yes, I agree with your comments about the weak throw. It's something I had started doing on normal flat-fly jumps, but got cured of quite quickly. With the wingsuit I am always very careful to throw the pc very strongly. In the rear facing videos I've taken the pc always shows full inflation instantly and stays fully inflated throughout the entire deployment sequence; it never comes near to my body. Unfortunately it sits there at full bridle extension being towed while it is fully inflated. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkymonkeyONE 3 #9 June 9, 2006 There are many, many people who are jumping cut-down seams in their "closed corners" rigs (RWS Micron and Vector 3, Wings, Mirage, etc) without any problems whatsoever during their "regular" skydives. It's a very simple modification. Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LouDiamond 1 #10 June 9, 2006 Pictures of cut corners and packing Grommet to pin can be seen HERE as well as a Birdman specific D-bag."It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required" Some people dream about flying, I live my dream SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
moonglo 0 #11 June 9, 2006 I tried packing grommet to pin, then cut corners, then the larger p/c and longer bridal. I was jumping a GTi back then, a Vampire 1 now. Packing grommet to pin helped a bit with line twists. The cut corners made deployments much quicker and less line twists. The new p/c made everything go smoothly and just felt better. I use the same set up for freefall and it works fine. The p/c is the biggest size recommended for my canopy (Sabre2 150). Be sure to slow down before pulling no mater what the discipline! I found that I did not need to pack grommet to pin as I did with my Vector 2, and it was also very hard to close the rig that way as the dbag didn't fit in the pack tray well. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
robibird 2 #12 June 9, 2006 Question! Your V3 is brand new or not?! In case you jumping w brand new rig - don't worry, it will take about 10-15 jumps and after it will start work just fine - w no hesitation. In case your rig is not new - just keep the ''arch'' method for pull sequence but change the PC! Take the one which is about 1 or 2 inch bigger , not more than 2 inch. This will solve the problem Best regardsRobert Pecnik [email protected] www.phoenix-fly.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomAiello 25 #13 June 9, 2006 Quote1) Does the larger pilotchute cause problems on non-wingsuit jumps? I seem to recall from reading the BASE forums that pilotchutes can be too large as well as too small The pilot chute size issues on BASE jumps don't apply on skydives, and vice versa. On a skydive, an oversized PC will tend to strip the line stows off your bag, giving you line dump (and hence usually a fairly hard opening). On a BASE jump (where there is no bag) an oversized PC will distort the pack job as it moves to line stretch (because it's ripping the bridle attachment and center cell out of the pack job), which can actually lead to slower openings (and worse heading, increased chances for a line over or tension knot, etc). The PC size issues don't translate between skydiving and BASE very well because of the differences in the deployment systems (primarily the absence or presence of the deployment bag).-- Tom Aiello [email protected] SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phoenixlpr 0 #14 June 9, 2006 QuoteOn a skydive, an oversized PC will tend to strip the line stows off your bag, giving you line dump (and hence usually a fairly hard opening). Really? I have 200+ jumps with a 38-40" F111 PC without any problem. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
The111 0 #15 June 9, 2006 QuoteQuoteOn a skydive, an oversized PC will tend to strip the line stows off your bag, giving you line dump (and hence usually a fairly hard opening). Really? I have 200+ jumps with a 38-40" F111 PC without any problem. I also was curious about your statement, Tom. I'm not a rigger or a parachute expert, but what you said does not make sense to me. The purpose of a pilot chute is to remove the lines from the stows. Doing that a little faster won't hurt, I wouldn't think. Can you elaborate at all?www.WingsuitPhotos.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
aber_aos 0 #16 June 9, 2006 The V3 has got about 130 jumps on it. Are you suggesting only a bigger PC, or a bigger PC and the cut corners that people have suggested above? Thanks Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites aber_aos 0 #17 June 9, 2006 QuoteQuoteQuoteOn a skydive, an oversized PC will tend to strip the line stows off your bag, giving you line dump (and hence usually a fairly hard opening). Really? I have 200+ jumps with a 38-40" F111 PC without any problem. I also was curious about your statement, Tom. I'm not a rigger or a parachute expert, but what you said does not make sense to me. The purpose of a pilot chute is to remove the lines from the stows. Doing that a little faster won't hurt, I wouldn't think. Can you elaborate at all? I think Tom's point is that the lines should be released from the stows in the correct sequence and that too big a pilot chute can cause the stows to dump lines out of sequence due to the higher accelerations involved. I believe that if the mouth lock stows get dumped you can get the canopy out of the bag and inflating before you get line stretch. You can then get a viciously hard opening causing damage to you and the equipment. If I'm wrong I hope someone will correct me. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites LukeH 0 #18 June 10, 2006 QuoteI have 200+ jumps with a 38-40" F111 PC without any problem. why are you using a PC that big? did you purposely go for that size or did you just happen to have one lying around? i use the standard PC that came with my Javelin but got the bridle extended to 3m from pin to PC. I also pack gromet up. for base jumping i use a vented 36" ZP with large hold mesh. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites robibird 2 #19 June 10, 2006 Every pilot chute tend to strip/brake what ever is attached on it. BASE PC tend to strip the center cell, tend to strip the lines out of the tail pocket, etc... On skydive system PC tend to strip the bag from the lines (not opposite ), tend to strip the top of the canopy from the bottom platform, etc... ''Striping'' happening on every jump, regardless of the PC size. It is about proper construction and technology to prevent striping damage the parachute / harness/ jumper. Why we playing w different sizes of PC or bags , etc...?! What every jumper ( rigger ) is trying to do, is to find the balance which would work the best. Balance between fast and soft opening and fast and hard one. In our nature is to have fairly fast opening , but soft of course. The smaller PC is - the cleaner opening will be! !That is very simple rule from theoretical point of view, because it is the less power involved which works in opposite directions. Size of PC has nothing w line dump as long you have proper rubber band configuration. If rubber bands are bad than line dump will occur regardless of PC size (not thinking to compare 24'' and 48'' of course) Another point is that the PC task on both types of jumps ( BASE -Skydiving ) are the same!! PC's only job is to extract the parachute to the line stretch. When line stretch is made the PC has nothing to do w opening any more ( oscillation of PC in BASE here is not the subject) RegardsRobert Pecnik [email protected] www.phoenix-fly.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
aber_aos 0 #17 June 9, 2006 QuoteQuoteQuoteOn a skydive, an oversized PC will tend to strip the line stows off your bag, giving you line dump (and hence usually a fairly hard opening). Really? I have 200+ jumps with a 38-40" F111 PC without any problem. I also was curious about your statement, Tom. I'm not a rigger or a parachute expert, but what you said does not make sense to me. The purpose of a pilot chute is to remove the lines from the stows. Doing that a little faster won't hurt, I wouldn't think. Can you elaborate at all? I think Tom's point is that the lines should be released from the stows in the correct sequence and that too big a pilot chute can cause the stows to dump lines out of sequence due to the higher accelerations involved. I believe that if the mouth lock stows get dumped you can get the canopy out of the bag and inflating before you get line stretch. You can then get a viciously hard opening causing damage to you and the equipment. If I'm wrong I hope someone will correct me. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LukeH 0 #18 June 10, 2006 QuoteI have 200+ jumps with a 38-40" F111 PC without any problem. why are you using a PC that big? did you purposely go for that size or did you just happen to have one lying around? i use the standard PC that came with my Javelin but got the bridle extended to 3m from pin to PC. I also pack gromet up. for base jumping i use a vented 36" ZP with large hold mesh. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
robibird 2 #19 June 10, 2006 Every pilot chute tend to strip/brake what ever is attached on it. BASE PC tend to strip the center cell, tend to strip the lines out of the tail pocket, etc... On skydive system PC tend to strip the bag from the lines (not opposite ), tend to strip the top of the canopy from the bottom platform, etc... ''Striping'' happening on every jump, regardless of the PC size. It is about proper construction and technology to prevent striping damage the parachute / harness/ jumper. Why we playing w different sizes of PC or bags , etc...?! What every jumper ( rigger ) is trying to do, is to find the balance which would work the best. Balance between fast and soft opening and fast and hard one. In our nature is to have fairly fast opening , but soft of course. The smaller PC is - the cleaner opening will be! !That is very simple rule from theoretical point of view, because it is the less power involved which works in opposite directions. Size of PC has nothing w line dump as long you have proper rubber band configuration. If rubber bands are bad than line dump will occur regardless of PC size (not thinking to compare 24'' and 48'' of course) Another point is that the PC task on both types of jumps ( BASE -Skydiving ) are the same!! PC's only job is to extract the parachute to the line stretch. When line stretch is made the PC has nothing to do w opening any more ( oscillation of PC in BASE here is not the subject) RegardsRobert Pecnik [email protected] www.phoenix-fly.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
