Tonto 1 #1 February 28, 2005 We had an interesting incident at JSC yesterday. In an earlier thread, Robert Pecnic said with regard to BASE wingsuit.. "A hacky handle PC is not acceptable! PCs with the hacky are top heavy. After the pull the PC will always ''dance'' until it is fully inflated, this is caused by the handle travelling slower than the PC body in the air stream, "dancing" is the critical period, where the PC can hit the bridle and create a solid knot." After landing under his reserve, both the Wingsuit pilot involved and I got to see that solid knot. This is his description of the incident. He is an experienced skydiver with many camera jumps, but few wingsuit dives. I've elected to post here rather than Incidents or S & T as it's 100% about wingsuits. "Spending some time pondering about the "sports" yesterday I've made a list of some things that came to mind.... 1. Did check my gear before I went up. PC was definitely cocked! 2. Have not Birdman since before nationals last year, and wanted to get current again. 3. Because of point 2, I decided to pull no lower than 4k and not to do any flocking dives. 4. Made sure that I did no lazy pulls. 5. After I pulled, and nothing happened, I thought the PC jumped into my burble. Dipped a bit to try and flush it off. (Camera experience) 6. When still nothing was happening I turned and looked, it took me a split second to realise the PC is useless. (Inspection on the ground proved it) 7. What I had to do next was obvious, the only question (even now) was "To first chop or not to chop?". 8. Made sure I was stable and fired reserve. Had a shit load of line twists, but canopy spined itself out. 9. Pulled main D-bag in and as I got it to me the last bungy gave and I grabbed the material and hugged it so that the main would not inflate. 10. Here's the clincher... Even if I chopped, I was so wrapped up in main lines, because of the line twists that I doubt it that the main would have cleared and there was no tension on the main risers. 11. While holding the main, I chopped one wing at a time. 12. When my arms were freed I steered towards the club using the rear risers. 13. Tried to secure the main buy shoving as much of it in to my J-suit. 14. Chopped and freed my leg. Shoved all handles into j-suit. 15. Released toggles and landed. For teaching newbies, I would like to share with you and Taya the following... (I have not sat in one of your courses, so I might be wasting your time, but...) This was not one of your garden variety mals. I was very busy up there! The wings (and the keeping the main under control) compound the issues of a mal. Pulling higher and my camera experience defiantly saved my ass. What I did do well, was to think before I took action and I only did one thing at a time. I was wondering, how a 500 jumps person that's never flown camera wings would have handled this situation. What also pee-ed me off was that it was such a COOL dive and the tips Taya gave me, worked like a charm!!! Anyway, I'll be back on the horse in 2 weeks time!" Feel free to discuss! Long flights, tIt's the year of the Pig. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Beverly 1 #2 February 28, 2005 Why the drama of not cutting the main away? Is there any reason you should not follow usual reserve drills? I am loathe to hang onto a main chute between my legs. I think true friendship is under-rated Twitter: @Dreamskygirlsa Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tonto 1 #3 February 28, 2005 Quote usual reserve drills.... When it comes to a PC in tow - there are no "usual reserve drills" Both cutting away and then firing the reserve, and simply firing the reserve have led to their own share of survival and tragedy in near equal proportions. Experienced skydivers tend to favour one or the other with some fervour. I think the same situation may require different responses depending on altitude, among other variables. A PC in tow at 600 ft, for example, requires an immediate attempt to deploy the reserve. Anything higher moves into the realm of opinion. As with almost everything - prevention is the preferable option. tIt's the year of the Pig. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
unclecharlie95 3 #4 February 28, 2005 Glad the jumper walked away un-injured. grrrrr, hackeys are evil JBASEstore.it Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
The111 0 #5 February 28, 2005 Ok, this story scares me. I jump hackey with my WS, as do many flockers I know. Here's a question. Reading Robert's description about the "PC dance"... if this phenomenon is true, why isn't it a risk with normal freefall too? When I deploy in a WS, I collapse all wings and try to sink out to a somewhat normal freefall (as much as possible). I wouldn't think my hackey/PC respond to the relative wind any different in this situation than they do in a normal freefall deployment. Then again, I still do get linetwists a little more often then I'd like (1/5 times maybe?), even when I seem to have perfect body position, so maybe my hackey or bag is doing a bit of dancing up there.www.WingsuitPhotos.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomAiello 25 #6 February 28, 2005 The "PC Dance" is definitely real. I've seen it actually tie knots in bridles on more than one occasion. And it is a risk in normal freefall. It's just not as much of a risk. Someone posted some photos a while back of a sitfly jump where the deployment (with hackey) had the apex of the PC dancing around below the bridle/PC attachment point prior to inflation. In proportional terms, a hackey on the apex of a PC is approximately like putting a bowling ball on the apex of a 22' round.-- Tom Aiello [email protected] SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
The111 0 #7 February 28, 2005 What is the best alternative to a hackey for skydiving gear? PUDS seem just as dense as a hackey (though I've only looked at them). I've heard of "internal handles" for BASE but never seen anything like that at a DZ. Old school student-type orange PVC tube? If so, are there any downsides to the alternate handle, such as ease of finding/gripping? I'll have to admit I love my hackey because I'm so used to it and am comfortable with it. It's never once not been exactly where I expected it to be when I reached. But this potential PC in tow issue may be enough for me to make a change...www.WingsuitPhotos.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
The111 0 #8 February 28, 2005 QuoteSomeone posted some photos a while back of a sitfly jump where the deployment (with hackey) had the apex of the PC dancing around below the bridle/PC attachment point prior to inflation. Does anyone know where to find these photos (or photos/video of a similar event)?www.WingsuitPhotos.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tonto 1 #9 February 28, 2005 I use PVC Pipe handles for wing suit dives, due to their low weight and the ease in finding them when everything around them is soft. Best thing I've seen is a practice golf ball for a handle. The one with all the holes in it? The writing has been on the wall for a long time. Hacky sac used to be "A game played with a ball that does not bounce by people who might" but these days the people using them are more than just fashion victims. And Monkey fists are even worse. tIt's the year of the Pig. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ryoder 1,384 #10 February 28, 2005 Quote I've heard of "internal handles" for BASE but never seen anything like that at a DZ. I've seen crew dogs using internal handles. It's just a PC built with no external handle, but with a small plastic handle rolling around loose inside it. They pack it in the BOC, with part of the PC hanging out and the handle in that portion."There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cpoxon 0 #11 February 28, 2005 QuoteBest thing I've seen is a practice golf ball for a handle. The one with all the holes in it? A 'wiffle' ball? And a BASE trick is to either have it attached internally so that snag risk is minimal or even leave it floating inside the pilot chute so that the weight, such that it is, moves from the apex after its job as a handle is over. Edit: and of course, as Ryoder pointed out, a lot of BASE tricks come from CRWSkydiving Fatalities - Cease not to learn 'til thou cease to live Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cpoxon 0 #12 February 28, 2005 A similar thing happened to me a few years ago... QuoteWhat I did do well, was to think before I took action and I only did one thing at a time. I was wondering, how a 500 jumps person that's never flown camera wings would have handled this situation. Or worse, someone with 200 jumps.Skydiving Fatalities - Cease not to learn 'til thou cease to live Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
The111 0 #13 February 28, 2005 QuoteI use PVC Pipe handles for wing suit dives, due to their low weight and the ease in finding them when everything around them is soft. Best thing I've seen is a practice golf ball for a handle. The one with all the holes in it? When I think of a wiffle ball I think of the ones I played with as a kid, that I could literally crush with one hand. Are these ones the same way? I'd like my handle to be somewhat sturdy. Also... I only have one rig. Would these other handles be bad for RW or freefly?www.WingsuitPhotos.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
The111 0 #14 February 28, 2005 QuoteThey pack it in the BOC, with part of the PC hanging out and the handle in that portion. I'm thinking it wouldn't be great to have exposed PC on a freefall rig, would it?www.WingsuitPhotos.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomAiello 25 #15 February 28, 2005 QuoteWhen I think of a wiffle ball I think of the ones I played with as a kid, that I could literally crush with one hand. Are these ones the same way? I'd like my handle to be somewhat sturdy. The one's I've seen used as BASE PC handles are strong enough that you could stand on them without crushing them (I did this once, by accident). QuoteAlso... I only have one rig. Would these other handles be bad for RW or freefly? I'd be curious about that, too. Anyone with RW or Freefly experience want to chime in?-- Tom Aiello [email protected] SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bodypilot1 0 #16 February 28, 2005 QuoteI'd be curious about that, too. Anyone with RW or Freefly experience want to chime in? There should be no issue on a RW jump. IMO, the PVC isn't good to use for RW in some cases, as it presents an easy finger snag while doing fast moves or tight vertical moves that can lead to a team member deploying you accidently (spoken from experience), and if your camera flyer is flying tight over the top it can be deadly. Keepin' it safe! Edwww.WestCoastWingsuits.com www.PrecisionSkydiving.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Fordy 0 #17 February 28, 2005 i took these a long time back when Max landed after a freefly jump (he also wingsuits) it's the 3rd time i have come across it with hackey sack handles. Fordy if you want them in a larger file then pm me with your e-mail addressFordy Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LouDiamond 1 #18 February 28, 2005 QuoteAnyone with RW or Freefly experience want to chime in? I jumped my old rig that had a small sewn in hard handle for the longest. It freaked people out when they couldn't see a visable hack and I always had to explain it to the unknowing. I eventually add the orange plastic job without a problem. I used it for RW, freefly and Birdman with no problems. It's not unusual at some DZs to see just about everyone with the old orange plastic handles. What I am thinking might be the culprit in these instances is if the maker of the PC used a standard hackey and didn't remove enough of the contents to make it safe for skydiving."It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required" Some people dream about flying, I live my dream SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
unclecharlie95 3 #19 February 28, 2005 Quoteif you want them in a larger file then pm me Any chance of a photo of Max in his frappe 'at? JBASEstore.it Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
flyinfishman 0 #20 February 28, 2005 What was the size and configuration of his PC? How was it packed? How was it deployed? JIM Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydiverek 55 #21 February 28, 2005 QuoteBest thing I've seen is a practice golf ball for a handle. The one with all the holes in it How about a handle that RWS put on their new Micro-Sigma? The drogue handle was a plastic ball with ridges in and around it. Seemed very sturdy. (Maybe it is on standard sigma, too - I don't know.). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydiverek 55 #22 February 28, 2005 QuoteIMO, the PVC isn't good to use for RW in some cases, as it presents an easy finger snag while doing fast moves or tight vertical moves that can lead to a team member deploying you accidently... Or in can be snagged against some part of an airplane... Also, my index finger got stuck in the PVC handle after I pulled on one jump! Talk about surprise - my right hand fully extended, palm open, and PC "attached" to my finger! I shook it off and it deployed normally... But it was scary. After that someone advised me to put a wine bottle cork (which is very lightwieght and provides snug fitting) into PVC to avoid this problem... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tonto 1 #23 February 28, 2005 Quote I'd like my handle to be somewhat sturdy. How many times do you think your hacky would survive being hit with a golf club? They're plenty sturdy for throwing into the air. tIt's the year of the Pig. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomAiello 25 #24 February 28, 2005 Quote...index finger got stuck in the PVC handle after I pulled... When I had around 80 BASE jumps, I had this happen on a 2 second delay from around 700 feet. It was...exciting. I promptly removed the handle, and stopped using handled PC's for anything subterminal.-- Tom Aiello [email protected] SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChasingBlueSky 0 #25 March 1, 2005 QuoteQuoteBest thing I've seen is a practice golf ball for a handle. The one with all the holes in it How about a handle that RWS put on their new Micro-Sigma? The drogue handle was a plastic ball with ridges in and around it. Seemed very sturdy. (Maybe it is on standard sigma, too - I don't know.). The golf ball handles on the Sigma do not go into the relative wind at all. They are attached via a bungie system to deploy the drougue. Maybe Bill Booth would be a good person to involve in this discussion since he invented the throw out and seems to know more about the PC than just about anyone I know? As others have said the issue with the PVC is you can snag your finger in the hole - happened to me around 50 jumps when I was still pulling at 4K for belly jumps. It took only a quick shake to get it off, but at the time it freaked me enough to move to a hackey setup on the next jump._________________________________________ you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me.... I WILL fly again..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
