Tonto 1 #1 November 23, 2004 I call bullshit on this. Either I'm doing it all wrong - or everyone's a wuss. What's up with "Arm strain." What is it, where is it and what does it feel like? tIt's the year of the Pig. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gus 1 #2 November 23, 2004 What's up with arm strain?! Could you fly your S3 to its maximum efficiency for 5 minutes? No? That's arm strain. To me it feels equivalent to holding weights with my arms straight out from my sides. I'm a scrawny wuss. GusOutpatientsOnline.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tonto 1 #3 November 23, 2004 Agreed. About a kg (That's 2.2lbs) held out to the sides. If that's arm strain worth considering, what's climbing a power 27, (our grades are different) or arm wrestling, or doing and equivalent time worth of 2 second press-ups or martial arts block and counter punch applications or even just standing with your arms outstretched flicking your fingers for 3 min? Is my scale of reference just out? I'm no athlete, but c'mon. It's 2 min, maybe 3. Is it so hard to suck that up? tIt's the year of the Pig. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
unclecharlie109 0 #4 November 23, 2004 Hey Tonto, what suit do you fly? what is your best flight performance? (exit, delay and glide distance) Either: - we're all doing something wrong - you're doing something wrong - or you've got a lot of upper body strength & stamina J Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tonto 1 #5 November 23, 2004 I fly an S3. I don't know how I'm doing. I enjoy my flights, I wear no pro track, have no GPS. Our exit altitude is 11 000ft and I'm pulling at 3500 - 3000ft, probably getting MAXIMUM 90 - 100 seconds and flying with GTi's. I'll be in Eloy next month and will be able to get some kind of "calibration" to this "arm strain" I was expecting to tear my arms out by the roots... and see how badly I suck at this. I know I'm no expert. Fewer than 100 wingsuit dives, maybe 50 on the S3. Sure, I feel my body works on an S3, but it's not like 4 way Rotation training! tIt's the year of the Pig. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LouDiamond 1 #6 November 23, 2004 Some people really do have an issue with this. Personally, I don't start to feel my shoulders until about jump # 10 or more. A lot of it has to do with ones initial shoulder strength and over all fitness. I think your prior life experiences with physically excercise has enabled you to fly without feeling the strain that others mention."It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required" Some people dream about flying, I live my dream SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nicknitro71 0 #7 November 23, 2004 From the V1 post: I don't agree. I work out regularly and the S3 is still tough on my shoulders. It's a isometric muscle contraction and builds up a lot of fatigue fast. I've learnt to deal with it but if I make a WS jump at the end of the day sometimes I have to pull much higher because I don't know if I'll have enough energy to deal with possible crap... You can always start flying dirty but then what's the point of flying an S3? As for the V1 we have to hear from Robi.Memento Audere Semper 903 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkymonkeyONE 3 #8 November 23, 2004 At the end of a long day of maxed-out flights my forearms are incredibly pumped, just like with finger-flicking drills and my wrists are done. My upper arms don't bug me at all. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tonto 1 #9 November 23, 2004 I havn't felt forearm strain at all - but then I've had no need to use the wing tip grippers. Should I be using them? tIt's the year of the Pig. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SimonM 0 #10 November 23, 2004 Tonto isnt telling you that he is a Kung Fu Master, which I am sure must help...... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
unclecharlie109 0 #11 November 23, 2004 QuoteI don't agree If you agreed you wouldn't be being yourself Just kidding Nick (nice website btw). I also encountered similar problems. What type of arm exercises are you doing? My routine involves static and dynamic weights, tri dips and press ups. Yours? Anyone else have some good exercises to recommend? J Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
outrager 6 #12 November 23, 2004 QuoteI havn't felt forearm strain at all - but then I've had no need to use the wing tip grippers. Should I be using them? That explains You can fly S3 all day if you don't max it out. The strain comes when you go for maximum perfomance, which involves rotating your shoulders and arms at a really awkward angle and holding the wingtips in an equally weird way. This is where you burn muscles that aren't normally used much. Squeezing the last 10% out of the suit makes all the difference. bsbd! Yuri. P.S. Edited to add: maxed out flight is very unstable and requires a perfect balance. This balance is lost way before your muscles give up completely. This is why it's much harder to keep flying perfectly past 2 or 3 minutes, while holding weights does not seem to be such an challenge. A more precise task like writing calligraphy while holding weights might compare better Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
VectorBoy 0 #13 November 23, 2004 My comparison comes from a similar airfoil, planeform, and sized S-3 prototype. When I fly my production S-3 I feel the strain that everyone complained about for years. Now when I flock all day I get tired towards the end of the flights at the end of the day. Manbird flew the suit I'm sure it felt a little soft in the lift department to him. For some people they have had enough strain that a doctor recommends they take the time off the suit. I'm not even going to get into what happens when someone has a shoulder that easily dislocates. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nicknitro71 0 #14 November 23, 2004 Well I hit the gym three times a week. Weight lifting and some cardio. I work the whole body at once. Now I try to work my shoulders a lot: military press, lateral and frontal rises, cross over cables...the problem is that when you fly a WS the muscles are contracted but they don't move hence anaerobic respiration takes over even more so than pushing iron. On top of that there is a lot of acid lactic produced. The thing about isometric exercises is that there are not good for building strength so I don't believe that mimicking and holding a flying position with weights helps but I do it anyway at the end of the session. When I tell non WS jumpers how physical the S3 is they don't buy it, oh well. I am still debating how many people should just stick with a GTI.Memento Audere Semper 903 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkymonkeyONE 3 #15 November 23, 2004 QuoteI havn't felt forearm strain at all - but then I've had no need to use the wing tip grippers. Should I be using them? t The only times I let go of my grippers are to give hand and arm signals to student, to take grips, and at pull time. It's the constant outward pulling on the wingtips while maintaining the rigid leading edge (shoulders rolled forward, elbows up) that wears you out. You are not near maxing your S3 out if you are not flying with your wingtips in hand. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
unclecharlie109 0 #16 November 23, 2004 Whos fault is this 2 threads on the same topic thing!!! See my last post on the other thread. J Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
VectorBoy 0 #17 November 23, 2004 Quote Whos fault is this 2 threads on the same topic thing!!! I will clarify what I'm refering to so nobody posts a third thread Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Jiggs 0 #18 November 24, 2004 I do not have many jumps on a S3 (and only 80 w/s jumps) but I have noticed that the pressure on the suit can be considerable depending on how much tension you try to put on the wing - trying to keep it really taut and flat rather than allowing it to "bubble" up is a very different level of pressure. Unfortunately I had decided to go nuts on weigths and managed to over do it after a few months - now my arms are very sore indeed! That said my MTR2 is very easy to physically fly in comparison, but I just can't seem to get the same forward drive. Sorry don't mean to hijack the thread but: What should I be trying to do with the s3? Flatest and tautest wings or the just a bit of arc in the wings? Palms facing the sky and shoulders rolled? Whats the best? What about through the hips - dearached or flat? Flying it, felt like it had for lack of a better term "gears". Slow and cruisy vs Fast forward"Don't blame malice for what stupidity can explain." "In our sleep, pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart and in our despair, against our will comes wisdom" - Aeschylus Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Tonto 1 #19 November 24, 2004 QuoteYou are not near maxing your S3 out if you are not flying with your wingtips in hand. Ok. Point taken. Probably a result of flying only with GTi's... I think what you describe could also be prone to "over gripping." This is common with new climbers, where they're not just holding on - but trying to crush the rock they have a grip on. I'll start working on using the wing tip grippers right away. tIt's the year of the Pig. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Tonto 1 #20 November 24, 2004 QuoteTonto isnt telling you that he is a Kung Fu Master, which I am sure must help...... C'mon, Simon. How's my Sifu supposed to feel if he reads this? I'm a student, and always have been. My current focus is largely on weapons forms, which have no application in real life. I have no students, I'm no teacher, and certainly no master, even of a single form. As I suspected, this "failure to feel" of mine is a combination of ignorance and poor technique. Both can be remedied with knowledge and effort. See you on the weekend! tIt's the year of the Pig. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites LouDiamond 1 #21 November 24, 2004 QuoteWhat should I be trying to do with the s3? Flatest and tautest wings or the just a bit of arc in the wings? Palms facing the sky and shoulders rolled? Whats the best? What about through the hips - dearached or flat? This is a common occurance where I see many 1st timers and people who have been flying the suit for a while make small errors which degrades their flight performance. First off, on any suit but especially the S3,think of your arm as the structure just like an aircraft. The suit is just the skin on the aircraft. If your arm is not properly attacking on the leading edge it will not allow for the skin to do it's job correctly. On the S3 ,positioning the arm so the the front deflectors are being utilized requires that you rotate your elbows forward and down, gripping the wintip grippers will aid you in acheieving the proper positioning. Doing this will also aid in rolling the shoulders forward. A very common mistake I see all the time is people who think the thumb loops are swoop cords. The thumb loops serve one purpose and that is to provide tension on the sleeve when you unzip. If you are pulling on the thumb loop during flight or feel pressure on it you are deforming your wing and actually pulling it too tight and not allowing it to work the way its designed. The hips is another area where I see people sacrificing a lot of their suits abilities by not knowing when to position their hips correctly. Hips can play a huge difference in how one flys. You need to get your butt up for a lack of an easier way to describe it. If you don't feel like you are poking your ass in the sky like an angry Halloween cat you are probably flying neutral or flat in the hips. You can gain or loose altitude simply by pushing your hips up or down when flying. The ones I have seen benefit the most from learning how to do this are the females. I recommend to every one that they do some creeper training on this to see what it feels like. Once they know what position they need to be in, females literaly take off vertically. The same benefits can be gained by guys if they learn how to work the hips. With that said, you don't have to fly with your ass up the whole time as this will cause you to float more. Knowing how to use your hips along with the rest of your body during different aspects of your flight will allow you a greater range when it comes to flying with people or catching them. Having flown the MT1 and and one of Loic's original suits I can understand how switching between the S3 and the MTR2 can be confussing to you. The mono wing suits have a slightly different body position requirement than the S3. If you can master the nuances of the S3, the mtr2 or any mono wing suit will be easier as in my experience, they require less body inputs to fly, simply spread your arms and legs till taught and go. Arm and hip/leg position again is important in flying those suits but not so much as with the S3. Regardless of what you do, your not going to get the same feel(forward speed) from a mono wing as you will from any of the BirdMan suits. The mono wings all have a floaty feel to them when compared to a BirdMan suit, it's just the inherant charachteristics of the 2 types ofsuits."It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required" Some people dream about flying, I live my dream SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites The111 1 #22 December 22, 2004 QuoteAt the end of a long day of maxed-out flights my forearms are incredibly pumped, just like with finger-flicking drills and my wrists are done. Same here. I broke my right wrist in elementary school and it's always been weak. It felt really weird after my first few jumps on my new S3 where I used the grippers. Hoping I'll get used to it a little bit... I also feel a bit of strain in the shoulders but it is muscular and I'm sure I can work up to that. The joint pain in the wrist is what bothers me...www.WingsuitPhotos.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
Jiggs 0 #18 November 24, 2004 I do not have many jumps on a S3 (and only 80 w/s jumps) but I have noticed that the pressure on the suit can be considerable depending on how much tension you try to put on the wing - trying to keep it really taut and flat rather than allowing it to "bubble" up is a very different level of pressure. Unfortunately I had decided to go nuts on weigths and managed to over do it after a few months - now my arms are very sore indeed! That said my MTR2 is very easy to physically fly in comparison, but I just can't seem to get the same forward drive. Sorry don't mean to hijack the thread but: What should I be trying to do with the s3? Flatest and tautest wings or the just a bit of arc in the wings? Palms facing the sky and shoulders rolled? Whats the best? What about through the hips - dearached or flat? Flying it, felt like it had for lack of a better term "gears". Slow and cruisy vs Fast forward"Don't blame malice for what stupidity can explain." "In our sleep, pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart and in our despair, against our will comes wisdom" - Aeschylus Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tonto 1 #19 November 24, 2004 QuoteYou are not near maxing your S3 out if you are not flying with your wingtips in hand. Ok. Point taken. Probably a result of flying only with GTi's... I think what you describe could also be prone to "over gripping." This is common with new climbers, where they're not just holding on - but trying to crush the rock they have a grip on. I'll start working on using the wing tip grippers right away. tIt's the year of the Pig. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tonto 1 #20 November 24, 2004 QuoteTonto isnt telling you that he is a Kung Fu Master, which I am sure must help...... C'mon, Simon. How's my Sifu supposed to feel if he reads this? I'm a student, and always have been. My current focus is largely on weapons forms, which have no application in real life. I have no students, I'm no teacher, and certainly no master, even of a single form. As I suspected, this "failure to feel" of mine is a combination of ignorance and poor technique. Both can be remedied with knowledge and effort. See you on the weekend! tIt's the year of the Pig. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LouDiamond 1 #21 November 24, 2004 QuoteWhat should I be trying to do with the s3? Flatest and tautest wings or the just a bit of arc in the wings? Palms facing the sky and shoulders rolled? Whats the best? What about through the hips - dearached or flat? This is a common occurance where I see many 1st timers and people who have been flying the suit for a while make small errors which degrades their flight performance. First off, on any suit but especially the S3,think of your arm as the structure just like an aircraft. The suit is just the skin on the aircraft. If your arm is not properly attacking on the leading edge it will not allow for the skin to do it's job correctly. On the S3 ,positioning the arm so the the front deflectors are being utilized requires that you rotate your elbows forward and down, gripping the wintip grippers will aid you in acheieving the proper positioning. Doing this will also aid in rolling the shoulders forward. A very common mistake I see all the time is people who think the thumb loops are swoop cords. The thumb loops serve one purpose and that is to provide tension on the sleeve when you unzip. If you are pulling on the thumb loop during flight or feel pressure on it you are deforming your wing and actually pulling it too tight and not allowing it to work the way its designed. The hips is another area where I see people sacrificing a lot of their suits abilities by not knowing when to position their hips correctly. Hips can play a huge difference in how one flys. You need to get your butt up for a lack of an easier way to describe it. If you don't feel like you are poking your ass in the sky like an angry Halloween cat you are probably flying neutral or flat in the hips. You can gain or loose altitude simply by pushing your hips up or down when flying. The ones I have seen benefit the most from learning how to do this are the females. I recommend to every one that they do some creeper training on this to see what it feels like. Once they know what position they need to be in, females literaly take off vertically. The same benefits can be gained by guys if they learn how to work the hips. With that said, you don't have to fly with your ass up the whole time as this will cause you to float more. Knowing how to use your hips along with the rest of your body during different aspects of your flight will allow you a greater range when it comes to flying with people or catching them. Having flown the MT1 and and one of Loic's original suits I can understand how switching between the S3 and the MTR2 can be confussing to you. The mono wing suits have a slightly different body position requirement than the S3. If you can master the nuances of the S3, the mtr2 or any mono wing suit will be easier as in my experience, they require less body inputs to fly, simply spread your arms and legs till taught and go. Arm and hip/leg position again is important in flying those suits but not so much as with the S3. Regardless of what you do, your not going to get the same feel(forward speed) from a mono wing as you will from any of the BirdMan suits. The mono wings all have a floaty feel to them when compared to a BirdMan suit, it's just the inherant charachteristics of the 2 types ofsuits."It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required" Some people dream about flying, I live my dream SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
The111 1 #22 December 22, 2004 QuoteAt the end of a long day of maxed-out flights my forearms are incredibly pumped, just like with finger-flicking drills and my wrists are done. Same here. I broke my right wrist in elementary school and it's always been weak. It felt really weird after my first few jumps on my new S3 where I used the grippers. Hoping I'll get used to it a little bit... I also feel a bit of strain in the shoulders but it is muscular and I'm sure I can work up to that. The joint pain in the wrist is what bothers me...www.WingsuitPhotos.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
