whatever 0 #1 July 7, 2004 hey there birdpeople I would love to hear the recommended progression from starting wingsuit jumps (on a GTi and with 300 skydives) to flying an S3 safely. I've done 9 flights on a GTi and decided to buy a S3 as my first suit. (insert comment about why this is over-ambitious and probably stupid here) I've done research on this and have a progression planned, but I'd really like to hear as many experienced birdpeople's views on this as possible. thanks sam soon to be gone Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kevin922 0 #2 July 7, 2004 I think this has been discussed before, but cause i'm lazy i'll answer it again. I would say 20 - 30 GTI jumps and you'd be able to fly an S3 safely. You have to take into consideration the fact that the S3 wing will cover your BOC/Hackey so you need to start from the middle of your BOC and feel your way out to your hackey. Be calm, and start your deployment high. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pbla4024 0 #3 July 7, 2004 I have 39 Classic2 + S-fly + S-track jumps and I'll receive my S3 in two weeks. So do you think I'm OK? Fido Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Deuce 1 #4 July 7, 2004 I did about the same thing. The S3 was just completely different and really kicked my ass the first few times. A buddy of mine, who's GTi I borrowed for my jumps, jumped my S3, once. It was just too much work for him for the increase in performance. Go with a coach, and jump from the same aircraft you've been jumping. I made my first Cessna exit with the S3, and there was just nothing fun about the whole flight. I love the suit and Cessna exits now, but at first I thought I had made a huge mistake. I think the S3 is just a lot harder than the GTi to fly. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kevin922 0 #5 July 8, 2004 QuoteI have 39 Classic2 + S-fly + S-track jumps and I'll receive my S3 in two weeks. So do you think I'm OK? Yes, but read what deuce said. The S3 (and i can't compare it to an s-fly as I haven't jumped one) is a much larger suit than anything you've jumped so far.. your arms will be worn out easier, the suit will "fly you" the first few jumps until you learn how to fly it. Make sure to do plenty of practice pulls so you know what to expect. It is critical on this suit to make sure you throw out "violently" to clear the larger burble on your back. The key to remember about this suit is it is more sensitive.. so don't do any radical turns, etc.. I had the feelings deuce is talking about when I first started jumping birdman, but didn't really have them with the s3.. so your milage may vary. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DaMan 0 #6 July 8, 2004 I did a similar progression - about 20 or 25 jumps on a GTi before getting one on my S3... Yes, you can be safe with just a few jumps, but I think I could have gotten a lot more performance out of my S3 if I had jumped another 20 or so jumps on the GTi. Almost a "canopy progression" thing - if you can wring out your current suit, it'll put you that much further ahead on the new one. Have you tried flying inverted yet on the GTi? If not, why not? Just some food for thought...Z-Flock 8 Discotec Rodriguez Too bad weapons grade stupidity doesn't lead to sterility. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LouDiamond 1 #7 July 8, 2004 There are several very good threads on this topic already in this forum that will answer your qustions, a search is a must. It varies from person to person but the S3 will fly you if your not up to the task. I've seen women have no trouble and heard grown men complain about their arms getting tired mid way through the flight. The S3 is NOT a good vanity purchase if you are not capable of flying it correctly. In fact, some one flying a classic efficiently can get better flights than someone flying a S3 poorly."It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required" Some people dream about flying, I live my dream SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
whatever 0 #8 July 8, 2004 Thanks everyone for their input. For everyone with this questions’ benefit, I did search the forums and found all these: http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1089765;search_string=s3;guest=6163187#1089765 http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=763977;#763977 http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=646181;search_string=s3;guest=6163187#646181 http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=513207;search_string=s3;guest=6163187#513207 but, I was hoping for some more specific progression advice/plans, e.g. fly a Classic/ClassicII/GTi until you have achieved the following: -stable controlled flight for the duration -fast turns, slow turns -backflying -good, stable pull position and no difficulty pulling -comfortable and in control on deployment -post deployment routine smooth and quick (unzipping, stowing booties, etc.) -ability to fly suit at varying fall rates and forward speeds -ability to fly to your max for whole flight and have no trouble on deployment due to arm fatigue that’s just what I think, specific comments on those would be nice… I think generalizations like 20-30 jumps on a GTi do not take into account different people’s different rates of progress. why I went with the S3: -I’m very comfortable on the GTi and got good numbers out of it real quick -I jump regularly and won’t be happy with less than 5 BM jumps a weekend -I like doing solos and will dedicate the time needed to learn the suit -I am quite willing to push weights as training for the suit (I’ve started this already) -the birdpeople at my home DZ are going to S3’s now -they had a stock S3 (no stock GTi) in my size and with 20% discount, who could resist? So I figured I’ll live with the slower progress initially and work hard at learning the suit, I know I would have progressed faster with a GTi, but I’ll get the S3 so much sooner (stock) and since I’m buying one suit instead of two in the next 2 years or so, I have that much more to spend on jumps on the new suit! edited to add clickys soon to be gone Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Deuce 1 #9 July 8, 2004 Dude, I was kicking ass on my GTi flights. I got a dock my first time out. I got one or two docks everytime after that. If you are controlled now, you will be OK. I'm just telling you that for this monkey, the S3 was a whole different banana. The two guys I fly regularly with can both outfly me, one in his GTi, and one in his CLASSIC! The problem for me is that with the S3 to get the monster lift, you will totally outdrive the smaller suits, if the guys in them are about the same size as you. Stay current. Stay current. Stay current. And have fun! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
VectorBoy 0 #10 July 8, 2004 -I jump regularly and won’t be happy with less than 5 BM jumps a weekend Quote I think based on this alone you will be fine if not better than most that do primarily other kinds of skydives and just dabble in wingsuits. For some people the S3 is easy to fly and can be flown a little relaxed instead of maxed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ManBird 0 #11 July 8, 2004 QuoteThe problem for me is that with the S3 to get the monster lift, you will totally outdrive the smaller suits, if the guys in them are about the same size as you.Not exactly. To get the slowest fall rate, the suit needs to be flown in a "stalled" position. Think "upside down bowl" or lying on top of a giant ball. Think of flying a canopy in 3/4 brakes -- deflect your "tail" in the same way. It maintains the airflow/surface area to keep you up, but "thickens" your profile to cut back your forward speed. The longest delays I've ever had (over 180s on several occassions) were accomplished in this "stalled" flight. It's also an easy (non-strenuous) position to maintain. However, this ruins one's glide ratio if there is little or no tailwind around."¯"`-._.-¯) ManBird (¯-._.-´"¯" Click Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ManBird 0 #12 July 8, 2004 This time last year, I would have recommended against the S3 for a first suit. However, there are a lot of experienced S3 pilots now that have learned a lot and shared a lot of information. Therefore, I feel the training and knowledge is available to bypass the "suit progression system". I think some of my fellow BM-Is will disagree with me on this, but i might be surprised. Regardless of past experience, there always seems to be at least some "instability phase", where you're at the biggest risk for flat spinning or flopping around like a sheet of plywood. For some, it's one or two flights. For others, it's a dozen or so. This is what we mean when we say that the suit will "fly you". And it will. If you don't fly the suit, it will do as it pleases. Fly it with the same attention that you would if you were to downsize your canopy dramatically. IMO, if you... - are very current (like at least 40 jumps per month, and probably have at least 400 or 500 jumps) - get trained up on the increased stability issues and flat spin recovery by an experienced S3 pilot - accept that you will encounter stability issues and maybe a flat spin during the instability phase - plan on dedicating a lot of time and jumps to your wingsuit - fly a docile canopy and use an AAD during the instability phase - are ready for a wild ride ...then you'll probably do just fine in the S3. I've trained or taken people up in S3s that had less then 10 flights. Yes, they encountered instability. One person even had a flatspin. However, they had the training to quickly regain stability. With some feedback based on both what I saw in the air and what I heard from the pilots on the ground, these issues went away pretty quickly. It's not that big o' deal if you do it right. Hook up with a good coach to get past the instability phase, and you should be OK."¯"`-._.-¯) ManBird (¯-._.-´"¯" Click Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites whatever 0 #13 July 8, 2004 Deuce - cool pic! I like where the still camera is pointed.... did you have a left sidemount pointed backwards too? dig the superman colors on the suit too, maybe time to get the superbird logo on the chest? everyone else who's been replying: -thanks for the valuable info, keep it coming! the only recommendation I'm going to have a little trouble with is access to an experienced S3 pilot.... I don't know of one at any of the DZs I jump, so if anyone knows of one in Ontario (Toronto/Niagara region preferred) or someone who'll be visiting (I've heard rumours of a local DZO getting a pretty high profile bird-dude out here.. ) , I'd love to know! like the shepard said: 'let's get the flock out of here...' soon to be gone Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Deuce 1 #14 July 9, 2004 If I can get Jari to approve the SuperBird logo when I see him at the Herc Boogie in a couple weeks, I might do it. I am simply not that good at it, regardless of how much I love the BirdMan Suit. Yeah, both cameras pointed backward. Some fun videos and stills. And again, I'm not trying to put you off your S3, it's just a demanding platform, and most of us can have just as much fun, without doing the F117 pilot thing the S3 requires from guys like me, who try to keep current in multiple skydiving disciplines. A GTI was all I needed, but I have ego and impulse problems. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ManBird 0 #15 July 9, 2004 QuoteI have 39 Classic2 + S-fly + S-track jumps and I'll receive my S3 in two weeks. So do you think I'm OK?No. You fucked up. You're going in. You'll love it."¯"`-._.-¯) ManBird (¯-._.-´"¯" Click Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites whatever 0 #16 July 10, 2004 great input there... for the benefit of those who have not seen these before, I should've posted them earlier, as I've seen them a while ago, but here they are anyway: Article on safety issues and progression to/with a Skyflyer or S3: http://www.flybirdman.com/learn/rr/road_to_skyflyer.html workout program for wingsuit(particularly Skyflyer and S3) flying: http://www.flybirdman.com/learn/rr/workout.html what I need to do on the GTi before I take the S3 up is becoming clearer and clearer, thanks guys! soon to be gone Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pbla4024 0 #17 July 12, 2004 I'm in and I love it. Really huge difference to Classic. Fido Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ManBird 0 #18 July 12, 2004 QuoteI'm in and I love it. Really huge difference to Classic.Nice! Assuming you got your S3, right?"¯"`-._.-¯) ManBird (¯-._.-´"¯" Click Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pbla4024 0 #19 July 13, 2004 Yes yes yes. I received my S3 by Saturday morning and two hours later I was in the load. I made two jumps (bad weather), one solo and one 2-way (S3 + Fly Your Body tracking suit). Fido Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites SkymonkeyONE 3 #20 July 13, 2004 How do your forearms feel? Were you flying holding your wingtips? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pbla4024 0 #21 July 13, 2004 Forearms are fine, those flights were short. I hold wingtips almost all the time. And tomorow is free day here (Fall of Bastilla) so I could put some jumps. Fido Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites hookitt 0 #22 July 16, 2004 HAHAHAH!!!! Evan looks horrified in S3-Rodeo.jpg JP, love the picture Pookierodeo.jpg Those colors suit you so well. This thread has been good to read. I've a handful of jumps on a classic2 with wing mods. The people I flew with tended to fly in a more stalled position. After a while of fumbling to stay close I'd take off and go for speed and found it to be quite amazingly fast. The folks I jumped with said they had trouble going that fast. Basically, fast made sense, but slower controlled flight was really challenging. The trouble I had was with stability. Not out of control but at first I was able to get right next to another flyer and hold it briefly but would suddenly turn and drop out. What's strange is I have no Idea what caused it. The fine control is going to take a bunch of practice. Any way reading this thread reminded me to back off and learn from the beginning. Now I just gotta get a suit so Deuce will fly with me :)My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites whatever 0 #23 August 5, 2004 so, I finally got to fly my S3 this weekend... and I love it! funny thing is I managed to flatspin a GTi on exit a few weeks ago, but had no trouble staying stable on my S3 for all 8 flights this weekend did some flopping around when backflying, but it's all good... RE - the advice offered by everyone on this choice: - the S3 is very demanding on the arms and shoulders (believe what they say), I can fly the suit for a minute, maybe a minute and a half, and then I have to start working real hard not to be a passenger instead of the pilot... (this weekend would've killed my upper body if I didn't rock climb quite a lot) -pulltime requires a lot more attention -it's gonna take me a while to fly this thing decently -it really requires actively slowing your forward speed and increasing your descent rate to flock with GTi's and Classics, consider what your local flock is flying when buying your suit -it really is good fun letting other birdmen try your S3, especially the bit where they go: 'S3 kicked my ass!' after landing... : ) thanks for all the feedback, everyone! hope to flock with you soon sam soon to be gone Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites KrisFlyZ 0 #24 August 5, 2004 How long did it take you to get the S3 from the time you ordered it? Kris. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites whatever 0 #25 August 5, 2004 uh, seeing as I went the S3 way because of the 20% discount on stock suits (only S3's), it took like 6 days to get it to Canada.... fits me real nice too! soon to be gone Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 Next Page 1 of 2 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
ManBird 0 #11 July 8, 2004 QuoteThe problem for me is that with the S3 to get the monster lift, you will totally outdrive the smaller suits, if the guys in them are about the same size as you.Not exactly. To get the slowest fall rate, the suit needs to be flown in a "stalled" position. Think "upside down bowl" or lying on top of a giant ball. Think of flying a canopy in 3/4 brakes -- deflect your "tail" in the same way. It maintains the airflow/surface area to keep you up, but "thickens" your profile to cut back your forward speed. The longest delays I've ever had (over 180s on several occassions) were accomplished in this "stalled" flight. It's also an easy (non-strenuous) position to maintain. However, this ruins one's glide ratio if there is little or no tailwind around."¯"`-._.-¯) ManBird (¯-._.-´"¯" Click Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ManBird 0 #12 July 8, 2004 This time last year, I would have recommended against the S3 for a first suit. However, there are a lot of experienced S3 pilots now that have learned a lot and shared a lot of information. Therefore, I feel the training and knowledge is available to bypass the "suit progression system". I think some of my fellow BM-Is will disagree with me on this, but i might be surprised. Regardless of past experience, there always seems to be at least some "instability phase", where you're at the biggest risk for flat spinning or flopping around like a sheet of plywood. For some, it's one or two flights. For others, it's a dozen or so. This is what we mean when we say that the suit will "fly you". And it will. If you don't fly the suit, it will do as it pleases. Fly it with the same attention that you would if you were to downsize your canopy dramatically. IMO, if you... - are very current (like at least 40 jumps per month, and probably have at least 400 or 500 jumps) - get trained up on the increased stability issues and flat spin recovery by an experienced S3 pilot - accept that you will encounter stability issues and maybe a flat spin during the instability phase - plan on dedicating a lot of time and jumps to your wingsuit - fly a docile canopy and use an AAD during the instability phase - are ready for a wild ride ...then you'll probably do just fine in the S3. I've trained or taken people up in S3s that had less then 10 flights. Yes, they encountered instability. One person even had a flatspin. However, they had the training to quickly regain stability. With some feedback based on both what I saw in the air and what I heard from the pilots on the ground, these issues went away pretty quickly. It's not that big o' deal if you do it right. Hook up with a good coach to get past the instability phase, and you should be OK."¯"`-._.-¯) ManBird (¯-._.-´"¯" Click Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
whatever 0 #13 July 8, 2004 Deuce - cool pic! I like where the still camera is pointed.... did you have a left sidemount pointed backwards too? dig the superman colors on the suit too, maybe time to get the superbird logo on the chest? everyone else who's been replying: -thanks for the valuable info, keep it coming! the only recommendation I'm going to have a little trouble with is access to an experienced S3 pilot.... I don't know of one at any of the DZs I jump, so if anyone knows of one in Ontario (Toronto/Niagara region preferred) or someone who'll be visiting (I've heard rumours of a local DZO getting a pretty high profile bird-dude out here.. ) , I'd love to know! like the shepard said: 'let's get the flock out of here...' soon to be gone Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Deuce 1 #14 July 9, 2004 If I can get Jari to approve the SuperBird logo when I see him at the Herc Boogie in a couple weeks, I might do it. I am simply not that good at it, regardless of how much I love the BirdMan Suit. Yeah, both cameras pointed backward. Some fun videos and stills. And again, I'm not trying to put you off your S3, it's just a demanding platform, and most of us can have just as much fun, without doing the F117 pilot thing the S3 requires from guys like me, who try to keep current in multiple skydiving disciplines. A GTI was all I needed, but I have ego and impulse problems. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ManBird 0 #15 July 9, 2004 QuoteI have 39 Classic2 + S-fly + S-track jumps and I'll receive my S3 in two weeks. So do you think I'm OK?No. You fucked up. You're going in. You'll love it."¯"`-._.-¯) ManBird (¯-._.-´"¯" Click Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
whatever 0 #16 July 10, 2004 great input there... for the benefit of those who have not seen these before, I should've posted them earlier, as I've seen them a while ago, but here they are anyway: Article on safety issues and progression to/with a Skyflyer or S3: http://www.flybirdman.com/learn/rr/road_to_skyflyer.html workout program for wingsuit(particularly Skyflyer and S3) flying: http://www.flybirdman.com/learn/rr/workout.html what I need to do on the GTi before I take the S3 up is becoming clearer and clearer, thanks guys! soon to be gone Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pbla4024 0 #17 July 12, 2004 I'm in and I love it. Really huge difference to Classic. Fido Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ManBird 0 #18 July 12, 2004 QuoteI'm in and I love it. Really huge difference to Classic.Nice! Assuming you got your S3, right?"¯"`-._.-¯) ManBird (¯-._.-´"¯" Click Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pbla4024 0 #19 July 13, 2004 Yes yes yes. I received my S3 by Saturday morning and two hours later I was in the load. I made two jumps (bad weather), one solo and one 2-way (S3 + Fly Your Body tracking suit). Fido Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkymonkeyONE 3 #20 July 13, 2004 How do your forearms feel? Were you flying holding your wingtips? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pbla4024 0 #21 July 13, 2004 Forearms are fine, those flights were short. I hold wingtips almost all the time. And tomorow is free day here (Fall of Bastilla) so I could put some jumps. Fido Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hookitt 0 #22 July 16, 2004 HAHAHAH!!!! Evan looks horrified in S3-Rodeo.jpg JP, love the picture Pookierodeo.jpg Those colors suit you so well. This thread has been good to read. I've a handful of jumps on a classic2 with wing mods. The people I flew with tended to fly in a more stalled position. After a while of fumbling to stay close I'd take off and go for speed and found it to be quite amazingly fast. The folks I jumped with said they had trouble going that fast. Basically, fast made sense, but slower controlled flight was really challenging. The trouble I had was with stability. Not out of control but at first I was able to get right next to another flyer and hold it briefly but would suddenly turn and drop out. What's strange is I have no Idea what caused it. The fine control is going to take a bunch of practice. Any way reading this thread reminded me to back off and learn from the beginning. Now I just gotta get a suit so Deuce will fly with me :)My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
whatever 0 #23 August 5, 2004 so, I finally got to fly my S3 this weekend... and I love it! funny thing is I managed to flatspin a GTi on exit a few weeks ago, but had no trouble staying stable on my S3 for all 8 flights this weekend did some flopping around when backflying, but it's all good... RE - the advice offered by everyone on this choice: - the S3 is very demanding on the arms and shoulders (believe what they say), I can fly the suit for a minute, maybe a minute and a half, and then I have to start working real hard not to be a passenger instead of the pilot... (this weekend would've killed my upper body if I didn't rock climb quite a lot) -pulltime requires a lot more attention -it's gonna take me a while to fly this thing decently -it really requires actively slowing your forward speed and increasing your descent rate to flock with GTi's and Classics, consider what your local flock is flying when buying your suit -it really is good fun letting other birdmen try your S3, especially the bit where they go: 'S3 kicked my ass!' after landing... : ) thanks for all the feedback, everyone! hope to flock with you soon sam soon to be gone Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
KrisFlyZ 0 #24 August 5, 2004 How long did it take you to get the S3 from the time you ordered it? Kris. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
whatever 0 #25 August 5, 2004 uh, seeing as I went the S3 way because of the 20% discount on stock suits (only S3's), it took like 6 days to get it to Canada.... fits me real nice too! soon to be gone Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
