Technique question for 3-minute birds-low speed stability-long

[lurch 0]

Been flying a GTI for most of my jumps lately. Largely solos, a handful of 2-ways with the one other occasional bird around here. Did the usual 1-flight FFC demo last season, other than that, no coaching available. So I'm pretty much self taught for the last 48 wingsuit flights aside from what I read here. Navigation I seem to have down nicely, at first I was asking for 2, 2.5 and then 3-mile spots from the pilots by the cockpit GPS till they got sick of the extra fuel and prop time I was using. Now I just wait half that long, then fly myself to the spot I want, do a wide shallow flat turn in a huge loop and fly home. Been working by use of pro-track till I broke 2 minutes, then by stopwatch started the instant I exit and stopped the instant my canopy hits full open, (I figure crude but accurate enough to give the general idea if you allow for say a 3-5 second buffer zone for variable length deployments and the time it takes to reach for my watch) then by neptune, then by all 3, compared against each other for performance evaluation. I find the pro-track is still useful in that its recorded deployment altitude just reflects where you were when it hit 119 seconds and stopped...took me a bit to figure out why it suddenly started recording ever-increasing deployment altitudes....If I come down and my stopwatch read 2:05 when I stopped it the PT usually recorded a deployment at 1:19, 3500-3800 feet even if I didn't pitch till 3300. If I come down and the watch was at 2:31 when I stopped it I check the PT and it says I deployed at 4900 feet, thus indirectly backing up my self-timing.
The neptune is useful as tertiary timing measurement but I have found it gives irregular results...on a flight over 2:20 it failed to detect that I had exited at all till 8300, stopped when I flared the suit particularly hard around 4500 and claimed a 32 second freefall.

I seem to have hit a limit. I can break 2 minutes easy every time by now from 13-13.5 to 3500. 2:15 isn't much tougher. I keep a grip on my wingtips, have experimented with a wide variety of tensions and wrist angles and degrees of shoulder-cuppage, arm cuppage and variable degrees and combos of the two. Too much downward-bowing on the arms eventually becomes counterproductive anyway by sacrificing usable wing area for arm-arch. Legwing I keep fairly tight, and either flat or somewhat de-arched at the hips. The harder I cup shoulders, bow arms and de-arch the slower I fall. Which brings me to the question. When I try to get much more than 2:25-2:30 the degree of de-arch at the hips required introduces a new kind of instability, horizontal potato-chipping. Rocking from side to side, spilling air like the simplest possible canopy with no vents. As I get more willing to deal with the rocking sway my freefall times go up...I got 2:35 once. I got 2:25 and 2:26 today and 2:31 yesterday running average 48-49 mph but the price is a really bumpy ride. Its easy to control....by backing off on the suit and sacrificing altitude by doing so, or even bending at the knees a bit and backing off on the throttle if it gets really wild. I get the highest times by spending as much of the dive as possible bobbling back and forth on the very edge of control. If I overdo it and sway too far, the downward sideslippage also costs me time. So the question for all you 3-minute birds is, how do you beat that? Is there some trick I'm failing to figure out here? I figure its either a balance thing, a technique thing, or else all the high-timers out there just weigh a buttload less than me and jump highly loaded small lightweight gear. I'm 135 lbs unloaded, maybe 155-160 lbs with gear...(sabre2 170, vector V5). (never weighed self with full kit on a scale of known accuracy.) All jumps deployed at 3500-3300 feet. I'm not willing to take it any lower for more time at this point and 15,000 feet would get me within shooting distance of the big 3:00 time but 15 grand is hard to come by these days. Can anyone answer this or is this the limit everyone runs into when maxed out, set by weight and wing size? How do you control side to side potato chipping?
Or is the only answer "SF3"?

Live and learn... or die, and teach by example.

[Tonto 1]

I think that the times you're getting on your GTI are spectacular!

I also have 50ish flights, mainly on Classics, some on GTI's. I'm not getting near those numbers, but our exit altitude is 11000ft AGL (16000AMSL)

I think if you went to a S3 you'd be over 3 min without much practice at all, particularly since you've been flying the GTI so close to the edge. (But then what do I know as a self taught dude with no instruments at all... I just fly.. cos it's nice!

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[VectorBoy 0]

You have pretty much answered your own questions. The results and experience you see are common when flying the slow side of the envelope. The bobbing and potatoe chipping are a result of hanging close to the stall point. Some of the monowing suits tend to fly better when one seeks more float. But I think that Robert P. designed the BM suits to be flown forward faster to achieve a better glide on the faster side of the envelope. You certainly cover more ground this way. And with some practice you may get closer to your magic 3 minutes by using this approach.
Regards.

[lurch 0]

I figured somebody was going to say that.... Nuts. I had noticed that point of diminishing returns...a few flights I got decent times but didn't cover as much ground as expected. I found I could keep the times AND the distance by balancing the variables just right...I'm getting good distance now, the glide slope looks and feels like the worlds biggest invisible ski slope, I had hoped that since I was keeping the forward-thrust component as high as I could I was avoiding canopy-style stalling. I got what I think was a full-blown zero forward speed stall once, riding the speed off an exit till I ran out of speed completely, and suddenly dropped like a rock. Felt weird, like a dead air exit off a helicopter. Suddenly felt like I had no air holding me up. If my arms hadn't been tied I would have flailed...instead I went into a prolonged nose-down till I got my airspeed back. That move also took long enough to recover from I barely broke 2 minutes on that flight. I know if I could stop this side to side wobble I could keep my distance and airtime but aside from trying to counter the bobbling by shifting my weight back and forth to match it (not a very promising approach...I can't shift my weight that fast, within a couple cycles I wind up out of sync and make it worse instead) I can't see any other variables to tweak anymore. I've tried not-maxing, holding just shy of the bobbling threshold and going for distance but it didn't seem to make any difference to my times...just went further. Overdo it in THAT direction and I start sacrificing time for more distance. I'm sure if I can counter the fall-off-the-side-of-the-beachball effect I can have more of both time and distance but don't see how. A couple people in the 3-minute men/women thread stated averages down into the low 40's/high 30's and I figured they'd been through all this already and had the bobbling under control in some way that allowed them to bite in deeper than the bobble will let me. Gimme a few hundred more flights, maybe I'll get the hang of it....I'm still trying to improve my timing and balance on that edge, the sense of wasted/lost air during the bobbling is annoying. I want to keep that air.
-Have a nice sky.

Live and learn... or die, and teach by example.

[flyinfishman 0]

way to go!

I'm experiencing the same thing with my GTi, that wobble on the upper body. Lately I've tried to do my best to just ride it out and it's put me in the mid to upper 30's for 6-7 seconds then I slowly creep back to the low 40's.( I need to build up my spindly arms!) I haven't tried gripping the wing tips yet, has that helped any?
With more forward speed my averages are around 45 and it's a nice smooth flight. What I look for is the turbulence and pulling on my suit over my butt (lift?) that seems to be the sweet spot.
I'm using the forerunner for timing the flights over 2 minutes, and for the ones under two minutes the protrack is within 1 or 2 seconds at the most.

Has anyone flown a Gti for 3 mins from 13'?

Jim

[lurch 0]

Gripping the wingtips definitely seems to help. I can do just fine without it, but the logic to me was that the tips and edges where the wing angles out aren't very rigid and tend to flap a little, wasted wing surface. I grip right about where the "point" of the wing angle is, holding the last wing cell out tight. The difference in feel is like hanging from the wing (no grip) as opposed to hanging on to and flying the wing. This also gives much more control over the arm wings themselves, I can use em like ailerons/flaps on a plane's wing. Twist the wrist downward to direct more air downward and, hopefully, get a tiny bit more lift out of it. I suppose you could use em for air brakes that way too, but the legwing seems far more efficient for brakes/thrust anyway. If you wanna try gripping your wingtips though I suggest setting your grip before exit. I don't know about SF3's but with a GTI the wingshape is such that once you lose your grip and drop a wingtip you'll waste the rest of your flight trying to grab it back and it stays teasingly just out of reach... So far every time I've lost my grip on a wingtip my only option was drop em both and fly the rest of the way in the empty hands default config.
And I don't think its your spindly arms creeping your speed back up after you hit your best slowfly. I'm no Mr. Universe but my 135 lbs is all 100% ripped up muscle, can hang by one hand in a half-pullup all day if I had to and I get the same exact results on protrack graphs. I think when you get down to the high 30's you're slowly and steadily bleeding off forward speed to sustain it just like a gradual canopy flare till you run out of speed and lift and return to a fallrate that gets you a balanced lift return. I can get to the 30's, I just can't hold it either, not long enough for it to be my overall average. I got a momentary down to 35 mph but the inevitable end of THAT is a bounce back to a higher fallrate than average, then I can slowly work it down to the high 40's again. The rules on this stuff seem to be quite reliable and concrete, TANSTAAFL.
(There Aint No Such Thing As A Free Lift.)
So I'm on the quest for ever tinier bits of improved efficiency and control. This is why I started this thread...a few birds seem to be able to keep a steady-state speed-lift return down to the high 30's continuous average and I want to know how, where the hell they're getting the lift from. I even tried wearing my heavy construction boots under the suit a few times. The result was self-negating. At about 2 lbs per boot It changed my weight and balance trim very noticeably and the added bulk at the toes let me get that much more tension and length out of the legwing. The weight and trim change also allowed me to bite in and dearch much deeper before the bobble kicked in, but it seems the added weight cost me everything I gained in efficiency. My times didn't change at all although I felt more stable at the edge, the edge itself didn't move. Dead end.
Good luck, lemme know how much you get out of the wingtips huh?
-Have a nice sky!

Live and learn... or die, and teach by example.

[ManBird 0]

You must have very long hands. The wingtips on my GTi are tough to reach effectively. Doing so bends my arm up too much, and is detrimental to my flight. If your wing is 100% inflated, then you shouldn't have any flap. Anywho, BirdMan suits are meant to be flown, not floated. In other words, you have to generate lift by scooching forwards, rather than just rely on surface area or "cupping" air. In terms of float, it sounds like you're getting that thing dialed in.

When I over-float my GTi, I get down to about 50 MPH. I used to do this a lot, and could get about 130 seconds of freefall. If I FLY it, I get a lot more forward speed, and get my fall rate down to the low/mid 40s. If I'm going for absolute best glide, it's somewhere in between for fall rate.

In the S3, I've been staying under and around 40 MPH pretty consistently lately, but still have a 90MPH+ forward speed. The S3, BTW, really likes to fly. "Floating" it won't yield any better fall rate than the GTi.

It all depends on what you want to do. If you REALLY want to float -- open your parachute. ;)

"¯"`-._.-¯) ManBird (¯-._.-´"¯"

Click

[SkymonkeyONE 3]

Quote

If you wanna try gripping your wingtips though I suggest setting your grip before exit. I don't know about SF3's but with a GTI the wingshape is such that once you lose your grip and drop a wingtip you'll waste the rest of your flight trying to grab it back and it stays teasingly just out of reach... So far every time I've lost my grip on a wingtip my only option was drop em both and fly the rest of the way in the empty hands default config.

You simply need to add stiffeners to the ends of your wingtips like a lot of us have on GTi's. Wingtips are very easy to re-grab with them. Do a search in this forum and you will find pics of the mod.

Chuck

[lurch 0]

Hey, thanks...Its difficult to tell how good is good since I have almost nobody to fly with, to me the bar was set at 2 minutes until that became an every-time deal. Then the bar was 2.5, I'm settling in at a repeatable 2:20-2:30+ but it seems the BIG bar is set at 3:00 and I'm running out of things to improve. I highly recommend a Neptune and protrack combo, the exact outputs tend to vary somewhat but having both instruments to compare against each other means when I suddenly evolve a bit more and start getting another 10 seconds it shows up glaringly on all 3 sets of numbers, watch, Neptune and PT.
And of course I'm having more fun doing all this than anyone else in my time zone. People just ain't supposed to be able to fly like this, I'm developing an insatiable appetite for vast spaces and distances. I'm already lusting for 28,000 feet and a bailout bottle, I'll be up there for a week.....woohoo!

Live and learn... or die, and teach by example.

[ManBird 0]

Yeah, I think that save extra altitude, 3+ minutes in the GTi will be damn near impossible. I wonder if Yuri could do it?

"¯"`-._.-¯) ManBird (¯-._.-´"¯"

Click

[notsane 0]

Hey .. concerning your Neptune ... do you have the latest 2.1.2 software for it? I've been below 40mph and it still recorded my time for me with this revision.

[GroundZero 0]

Great insights for a young Bird...

I spent so much time chasing the "longest times" and when I got my Skyflyer (1, not 3), I became more depressed as I chased time I was getting further away from flight. Once I gave up the time chase and enjoyed the flight more I was surprised to see my times increase. Vy is what you're looking for ... best glide. Then you can fine tune. Trying to drive slowest descent (hanging on a stall) is more work and the flight is not as much fun.

I've spent (well) over half my flights as solo flights. Find some clouds (or open tandems to swoop...-sorry I didn't say that...) With visual reference, you'll get a much better idea of what's happening. I used to tune my flight purely by audible reference-quieter = better flight... works well in the beginning, then you keep driving for the stall.

Each suit has better performance envelopes, sometimes quieter, sometimes not, as forward speed means better lift and flatter glide.

I only have about 3 or 4 jumps on the Gti, so I may not have the right answer for your suit.

Keep at it, sounds like you're kicking ass for your numbers!

Chris

[outrager 6]

Quote

Yeah, I think that save extra altitude, 3+ minutes in the GTi will be damn near impossible. I wonder if Yuri could do it?

I don't have GTi numbers, only made a couple of flights on it. Classic needed about 11.5-12k to cross 3min mark (i.e. 14000' exit opening at 2k). This can be improved a bit i guess, haven't flown it in years.

If you must cheat, 200KT tailgate exit will add about 10sec flight time ;-)

The key to maxing a suit is balance. Maxed out position is also most unstable. You can only tense so far before it starts to wobble. As your muscles get tired you start to loose your balance - well before you loose strength. Trying to relax mentaly while being tense physically is a basic idea. It is even more important on Skyflyers.

bsbd!

Yuri.

[skydave114 0]

Yo, Lurch, long time no see. You're jumping at the wrong DZ dude! There's several birdmans (and much better vibes) 1 hour west. C'mon out and play.
D.G.

[ManBird 0]

Why am I not surprised that you're breaking 180s in a Classic. One day, I'll grow another six inches and drop 20 lbs, I swear!

"¯"`-._.-¯) ManBird (¯-._.-´"¯"

Click

[outrager 6]

Quote

Why am I not surprised that you're breaking 180s in a Classic. One day, I'll grow another six inches and drop 20 lbs, I swear!

Careful with "another six inches" remarks, you know what i mean ?

I'm 5'10"/150lb, that's a pretty average ratio... wish i had a tall and skinny body style - with some gym work that would yield fenomenal flights! Too bad none of those guys are into hardcore suit flying :(

bsbd!

Yuri.

[ManBird 0]

Really? I thought you were taller than that for some reason. I'll grow my extra six inches any damn way I please. Yeah, you heard me. ;)

"¯"`-._.-¯) ManBird (¯-._.-´"¯"

Click

[lurch 0]

I just bought this neptune like a week or so ago. Its a fresh one, software 2.1.3. I consulted with the alti-2 people and they told me the weird result was likely due to kicking ass with the suit and setting such a low fallrate the thing can't even tell I exited, but there will be another new release any day now which might eliminate that. I'm hoping they edited the trigger threshold a bit. In any case I think its a fluke anomaly kind of thing, Hasn't been repeated since that flight. So far my impression of the neptune is a damn near perfect universal altimeter, a piece of gear I didn't really need, impulse buy I'm glad I bought anyway. About the only thing I could ask for out of it would be a display with a backlit mode bright enough to be seen even when eclipsed by sun glare. A lot of my flights tend to be sunset loads and I wind up with the sun off my left wing neatly eclipsing the neptune and making it impossible to read in the last couple grand. This is easily solved by hanging a right turn and getting it out of the sunglare though. Besides my altitude awareness ought to be good enough to deal with or without being able to read the alti for the entire flight anyway. How picky can I be? I'm amazed anyone took the trouble to build a tiny bit of tech gear this advanced for such a small market and I'm really amazed they managed to make it cheaper than a Protrack and so much better. Props to the Neptune people, you've made a whole buncha birdmen quite happy.

Live and learn... or die, and teach by example.