Nationals 2005

[hippydiver 0]

Well, I'm kind of disappointed. The artistic events started yesterday, and I come to find the Perris Valley site isn't keeping the Standings up-to-date or even posting any as far as I can tell and omniskore won't even have anyone at the competition until the artistic events are over. I guess artistic competition still takes a backseat to RW as I see, once again, the opening ceremony doesn't even take place until the artistic events are mostly over.

Anyone have any updates for us from Perris? I'd like to see how my friends on Team Bling are doing in intermediate freefly.

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gravity rat formula 109
Team Gonzo and Team Jamaican Me Crazy
no bullshit, let's just fly, be safe, and have fun.

[ifics 0]

Bling won 1st place!!!!!!!!!!

[SkymonkeyONE 3]

Raeford's own Paraclete Freefly took third in Open! Not bad for a bunch of rednecks, eh?

Chuck
Raeford Parachute Center, NC

[freeflycracker 0]

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Bling won 1st place!!!!!!!!!!

Hells Yeah!! Congrats to Meg, Rodney &Shannon


Cracker ass Cracker

[gemini 0]

Congrats Bling!

Anomaly took gold in Open.

Blue skies,

Jim

[skybytch 259]

The teams from Davis didn't do too bad either. Guano took silver in open and Groovilicious placed second in intermediate (watch out, Billy won't be a guest competitor next year).

Both teams have some sweet jumpsuits.

[Merkur 1]

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Bling won 1st place!!!!!!!!!!

CONGRATS!!!!!!!

Hey bl8k - are you in Perris with them????
Give the girls a hug from me! - And say Hi to Rodney

blue skies
M.

P.S.
Have you done "one of these"-jumps lately or do I have to come back to teach you?

vSCR No.94
Don't dream your life - live your dream!

[Caseadilla 0]

Awesome...Congrats Bling!
How did vibe do?





team stankfanger

[Brains 2]

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Awesome...Congrats Bling!
How did vibe do?





team stankfanger

Vibe got 6th in open.

Never look down on someone, unless they are going down on you.

[ChasingBlueSky 0]

So why so few freefly teams this year? Seems the AE events overall have very little interest within the community to compete against each other.

_________________________________________
you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me....
I WILL fly again.....

[ntacfreefly 0]

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So why so few freefly teams this year? Seems the AE events overall have very little interest within the community to compete against each other.

Because not many people like subjective judging. We have no intention of ever doing an artistic event again - this was a filler while we waited for 4way which is scheduled to be in next year. Can't wait
I'd expect to see 2 way Freefly fade away, but who knows.

Blues.

To the mind that is still, the whole universe surrenders. ~ Lao-Tzu

It's all good, they're my brothers ~ Mariann Kramer

[Vertifly 0]

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I'd expect to see 2 way Freefly fade away, but who knows.

Are you saying that flying is becoming more mechanical? Damn, I hope not but I just have to agree with you - two way stuff has faded. The competition may die but the concept will not.
4-way will be pressed to become as versatile as 2-way (referring to using all axis to make the show).

It will be a sad day when freeflyers are all closing their eyes, being all serious on the plane, and gesturing grips like the 4-way RW teams do.

[ntacfreefly 0]

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The competition may die but the concept will not.

I agree - but in regards to it being an 'artistic' event - I think it will fade....and rightfully so. Artistic events are simply too subjective, it becomes about what looks pretty not what is technically challenging.

Check out the 4way vrw pool. I think you'll find it's a really cool mix of head up, head down flying. Yes, it's becoming more like 4 way but I think that's a good thing.

The discipline has matured to a point where we're capable of doing multipoint, multiorientation vrw jumps. Turning blocks with a mix of head up and head down fliers is fun as shit

Blues.

To the mind that is still, the whole universe surrenders. ~ Lao-Tzu

It's all good, they're my brothers ~ Mariann Kramer

[ChasingBlueSky 0]

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Because not many people like subjective judging. We have no intention of ever doing an artistic event again - this was a filler while we waited for 4way which is scheduled to be in next year. Can't wait
I'd expect to see 2 way Freefly fade away, but who knows.

Blues.

Does anyone else find this turn in ideology ironic? Freeflying first got started because people were tired of typical turning points, and the regiment of training required for RW. I remember meeting Rook and Olav the first times and hearing them talk about it. Most of the freeflyers I knew six years ago did nothing but make fun of dirt diving. Hell, I remember Skydive Lake Tahoe at one point posting on their website that no dirt diving was allowed - mostly as a joke, but it was the idea of what freeflying was about.

I realize the sport will always evolve - (and I do freefly), but I just find it interesting to see the sport move to 4-way when that's what it was trying to avoid when it started.

The 4-way VRW pool is a challenge that is well beyond any freeflying skill I have - and I commend any that can do it. But do you think it will take away from the 'no limits' that freeflying has always been about?

_________________________________________
you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me....
I WILL fly again.....

[ntacfreefly 0]

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The 4-way VRW pool is a challenge that is well beyond any freeflying skill I have - and I commend any that can do it. But do you think it will take away from the 'no limits' that freeflying has always been about?

Nah
The reason I, and many others, are happy about this shift is that for the first time we have a solid, judgable system based on a move - not the visual interpretation of it or how pretty someone thinks it looks, regardless of skill required to do the move. As a competitor that is appealing.

While I realize it's not for everyone, I generally find unplanned dives relatively unsatisfying now. I like having a goal - it gives me something to measure my progress against.

Blues,
Ian

To the mind that is still, the whole universe surrenders. ~ Lao-Tzu

It's all good, they're my brothers ~ Mariann Kramer

[Trent 0]

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So why so few freefly teams this year? Seems the AE events overall have very little interest within the community to compete against each other.

I had this conversation with several judges and USPA people when I overheard them talking about removing freeflying altogether (meaning not including 4way either). There were not SO FEW teams this year... there was 1 less in Open and 2 less in Intermediate. Not a big deal, the numbers have been about the same since I started competing in 2002. There has never been more than 10 teams in either open or intermediate. So I wouldn't say we've really seen a decline YET.

As far as interest to compete... there's a couple of reasons that I see. Demographics: many freeflyers are younger and poorer. Skill: It takes freeflyers much longer to get to the point where they could even be competitive. Modesty: A lot of freeflyers don't compete because they don't think they'd do well. (There's been 4 "freefly leagues" in Houston alone with 5-8 teams each year... but it's local so no pressure)

Now 4 way will have its own problems for sure, but like has been said... it appeals to the side of us that are tired of subjective judging. Personally, I think the subjective side is part of the game like many other sports (gymnastics, snowboarding, etc.). It's worked against us a few times, and helped us a few times... but that's the game. I feel like it would be a real shame to lose the artistic aspect of freeflying. Often times that is what pushes people to do new and more difficult things.

4way was fun for sure... and I'm sure once it gets rolling it will be great. But there are plenty of problems that will arise as it grows. Think it's hard to keep a 3way team together? Try 5. Think busts are purely objective? Ask some 4-8-16 way competitors. It's just a new avenue for people to compete, and it will have it's growing pains.

Ideally, I'd compete in both. I think it would be a real shame to see the artistic side go.

Oh, hello again!

[FFlyer 0]

Just my 2c here,...but I have finally got to a level in my headup flying where I am semi-proficient. So my team and I thought we were kicking ass in the sky (in respect to our jump numbers), so we entered a mini-meet for headup flying. There were only 6 teams competing, and we came last. But I wouldn't give that experience up for anything. The things I learnt by being a competitor and having specific things to do in the sky instead of just fooling around, and then being judged on our flying were huge.

There are loads of freefliers that I know,....enough to have a competition of at least 15 teams of farely competent flyers. But there were only 6 teams competing. Thats really sad.

I think trent mentioned a good point about modesty. A lot of freefliers at the dropzones where I have been think they are really baddass but then end up not competing and allowing a judge to tell them wether or not they are actually baddass flyers.

Well, enough rambling. I have only competed once, but I plan on competing in freeflying at every chance I get regardless of whether or not my team comes first or last. My flying skill has improved drastically since the competition and I wouldn't be flying as well as I am now if it wasn't for competing and seeing what the standard of flying is. Im not yet good enough for 4way vrw (far from it), but when I am, ill definitly compete.

[ntacfreefly 0]

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I feel like it would be a real shame to lose the artistic aspect of freeflying. Often times that is what pushes people to do new and more difficult things.

I agree. I admit I didn't really think of that. Good post in general though.

See you in the air.

Blues.

ps: Watching your routine was a shitload of fun - nice job

To the mind that is still, the whole universe surrenders. ~ Lao-Tzu

It's all good, they're my brothers ~ Mariann Kramer

[Canuck 0]

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I agree - but in regards to it being an 'artistic' event - I think it will fade....and rightfully so. Artistic events are simply too subjective, it becomes about what looks pretty not what is technically challenging.

I disagree totally. Usually the prettier it is, the more technically challenging it is. Take a look at how many Olympic sports have subjective scoring (figure skating, gymnastics, freestyle skiing/snowboarding, diving, synchro swimming, etc.). It would be a difficult argument to make that any of these sports are fading away or that they are just about being pretty.

I don't think it's the subjectivity that's the issue. It's the consistency in the subjectivity that's the issue.

Canuck

[Mathyaz 0]

It will always be much easier to get four people on their belly together making some points than to get 3 people together performing well in freefly competition jumps. Freeflying is much more difficult to start with. 4-way VRW is super nice and a lot of fun, even more difficult to begin with and will be popular among some of the experienced freeflyers.
But (!) 3-way freefly has the great aspect of being artistic, they can compose their own jumps, express them selves(in some way at least) and teams can do well in the free routines just by having good ideas about a jump an executing them well. You have the possibility of beating very skilled jumpers with thousands of more jumps than you by being creative, having good ideas and performing your competition jump well. In Norway we have had a boost in freefly teams who train and compete in 3-way. Even the army sponsored two freefly teams this year, so in little Norway the "trend" is going in a very positive direction. The federation has also committed it selves to fund the national freefly team the next four years.
AE´s is the best place for skydivers to execute all their god creative ideas in a competition :-)

[Vertifly 0]

I agree, but judging is a lot easier when done by the numbers. Someome will definitely know if they won or lost if the direct point difference is 20 to 15 (for example). It is very difficult to judge the essence and difference between a smooth rock-the-cradle vs. a blind/bak-to-back carve (for example). In last scenario, subjectiveness is the only way to be.

Having been a judge, usually the top and bottom teams are distinctive and the ones in the middle are difficult to place.

Those other sports aren't fading probably because there is an audience and more people can relate to the difficulty involved with doing that stuff. A sports magnitude can be measured by its fans. If there aren't any fans, or onlookers, then what is the point of expression (i.e. artistics). Is it more important to be artistic or competitive? Both together just confuses judges, who I might add, are hardly ever freeflyers themselves.

[Canuck 0]

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Those other sports aren't fading probably because there is an audience and more people can relate to the difficulty involved with doing that stuff.

But we're not talking about fans, we're talking about competitors. There are really no fans in skydiving period (although I think canopy piloting has the ability to change that) so I don't think it's relevant to the discussion.

As to the judges not being freefliers, I don't beleive one needs to have participated in any sport to be able to coach or officiate it well - lots of examples come to mind from pretty much any major league sport.

The artistic events aren't going away. In fact, in canopy piloting it's just getting warmed up!

Canuck

[Zenister 0]

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I agree - but in regards to it being an 'artistic' event - I think it will fade....and rightfully so. Artistic events are simply too subjective, it becomes about what looks pretty not what is technically challenging.

I disagree totally. Usually the prettier it is, the more technically challenging it is. Take a look at how many Olympic sports have subjective scoring (figure skating, gymnastics, freestyle skiing/snowboarding, diving, synchro swimming, etc.). It would be a difficult argument to make that any of these sports are fading away or that they are just about being pretty.

I don't think it's the subjectivity that's the issue. It's the consistency in the subjectivity that's the issue.

I completely agree.. something that is lacking from many of the Nationals video's ive seen is grace.. for me its not simply about the move itself, but the grace with which it is performed.... but i agree while subjectivity is a tricky thing, the issue is CONSISTENT subjectivity..

an ‘easy’ moved performed perfectly is much more impressive IMO than a difficult move performed poorly (even when both moves are accomplished) the idea (for my way of thinking) is to make everything look effortless. reguardless of how hard it really is...

there should be clear divisions between speed rounds and the more artistic 'graceful' maneuvers.

____________________________________
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[Zenister 0]

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who I might add, are hardly ever freeflyers themselves.

this i think may be the core of the problem.. the judges may have no real idea of the difficulty of pulling off each series smoothly...

one of the reasons i'd like to look into the judging criteria myself ... not that i'm that great of a freeflier, but i think i know enough to recognize when something is done well vs simply 'thrown out'

but where will i find the time???

____________________________________
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[skybytch 259]

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If there aren't any fans, or onlookers, then what is the point of expression (i.e. artistics).

What's the point of a writer writing a book when the chances of the public ever reading it are slim? What's the point of painting a picture if the painter knows it will never be displayed in public? Art is expression for expression's sake.

If increasing participation in competitions is a goal behind 4 way VRW, perhaps the inclusion of a 2 way VRW event specifically targeted at less experienced freefliers (like the 2 way RW event at Collegiates; call it intermediate) should be considered as well. Give those of us who aren't skilled enough to do 4 way yet a place to play and learn - and medal.