Learn to do Head Down

[ncfitzge 0]

So whats the basics on learnin head down? Any good videos that teach it or just suggestions on how to start?

THanks

#148 Sonic Scrat
"Have you ever kissed a rabbit between the eyes?" Woodpecker pulling out his pants pockets to the waitress

[ccowden 0]

Get with a coach and get another 100 jumps on your feet, or until you get proficient at head up flying. Don't be in a hurry to get headdown. Too many people go to headdown WAY too soon, before they are ready and before they can fly on their feet very well at all.

Take your time! Have fun with it. Get a coach.

[OzoneJunkie 0]

Yeah, what Chris said.

here's some reading for you, though:

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=786811&

[dharma1976 0]

yeah spend some time with a coach working on head up flying or you will not have a nice place to go when you cork your head down....

Cheers

Dave

http://www.skyjunky.com

CSpenceFLY - I can't believe the number of people willing to bet their life on someone else doing the right thing.

[Trae 1]

The best advice I've heard and used about how to have a go at head down is the following.

Dive forwards out the door in the same direction the aircrafts going.

Straighten and spread you legs , look down at your body and manually ensure your legs are spread apart and straight. Don't be concerned about your orientation and don't hurry.

When you are sure your legs are in the desired position straighten your back and relax.

Look gently at the horizon........YOU WILL BE HEAD DOWN.

The lowest jump number people who I personally know and have shared this with have been just off AFF training and were bored with solo jumping. To say it blew them out would be an understatement.

If you're a novice ensure that you only try this for a short while after exit( say 20 seconds from 12000'+) or so of your skydive as it's not recommended that you stay head down all the way till opening height.
There will be some skydivers who will say this is a bad idea for a novice to try early . If you have no problems with maintaining stability or getting it back after going unstable then don't hold yourself back.
If you passed your AFF you should have these stability skills already.

If a novice just remember that it is only recommended that you try this for a short while after exit as you can build up a lot of extra speed if you hold the head down position for too long. Also ensure that the rig you are jumping is freefly friendly (every rig should be...)
You'll probably be stable before a lot of other novices attempting normal exits.

If you're an experienced skydiver who just wants to have a go at head down without the expense of paying a hands on coach ...you'll be blown out how easy this technique makes it.

Once you see how relatively easy this is to achieve by yourself you may want to get some coaching from the good guys ...before you get too many bad little habits... like zooming across the sky in your head down possy.

I fully recommend doing this by yourself so you don't create a needless dependancy on coaching.

That said professional coaching is THE best way to continue on at an advanced pace.

Enjoy.

[hookitt 0]

Come on bro...

From your profile

Disciplines of Choice:
Wing Suit Flying
Freefall Photography

The instructions posted will make 99% of the people back slide a lot faster than most people can track.

My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

[woodpecker 0]

Trae,
allow me first to thank you for helping and not hindering self progression in jumping. All to many times people try to stunt the growth of free flying by "you dont have enough jumps yet", or "you should do this first". If you can get stable, solo jump, and want to learn a new disapline, why not learn it? If your not dangering other people I dont see the problem. For CReW or formation flying, i agree with more jumps or more experience, for solo freeflying.....grounds the limit boys. Thanks again for the help and i too will be trying head down with fitz next weekend.

Blue skies trae!!!!

SONIC WOODY #146

There is a fine line between cockiness and confidence -- which side of the line are you on?

[mr2mk1g 10]

Toddlers get fed up with crawling, haul themselves up onto their legs and start to run about like a spaz. They run around like spastics because they haven't perfected walking yet.

If you want to fly around like a drunk spastic then go ahead and have fun. If you want to actually progress and learn a discipline, listening to the advice of those who are trying to help you progress faster, is a great place to start.

Also note how Trae didn't actually post advice on how to learn a new discipline. He posted advice on how to try it out a couple of times. His advice on how to learn it is to get coached and that you shouldn't try it out too many times before you get coaching lest you start to think flying round like a spaz is how it's supposed to be done.

P.S. don't backslide into my group while trying this out or I WILL kill you! Sadly I'll also be dead because you would have just blown through me at 50mph.

[woodpecker 0]

allow me to clarify one more little piece of the puzzle in regards to my previouse reply. We are not in congested airspace where we jump. its usually just you and in no danger to anyone. Lots of free air!
Like i said, as long as we are not endangering people.
I also understand that a coach would be warranted to purfect such a skill, but whats the harm in trying it out a few times before? I appreciate everyone trying to keep us safe...guess i just dont understand the total danger in being alone in the air and trying out something new for a few seconds. If I'm missing something please explain. I definetely dont want to hurt/kill anyone especially me.

SONIC WOODY #146

There is a fine line between cockiness and confidence -- which side of the line are you on?

[mr2mk1g 10]

Personally I think the only thing to note is that trying-it-out is trying-it-out and that is very different from learning it. The advice on learning HD is almost always to learn head up first... that's different from just trying it out.

Other than that just remember it's you and your gear alone up there. Even if there's no one else to collide with you can still kill yourself with inappropriate gear choice. So talk to someone who knows about FF gear and remember you don't know what you don't know - just because you think it's freefly safe doesn't mean it necessarily is.

[woodpecker 0]

AGREED!

SONIC WOODY #146

There is a fine line between cockiness and confidence -- which side of the line are you on?

[FFlyer 0]

You'll be amazed at how fast and how far you can move in HD iether forward or backwards without even trying. Call me over cautious, but if someone isnt very comfortable in headup and is planning on spending any more than about 3 seconds HD,...I dont think I would want to be on the same load as them.

Im still very much a newbie with HD and am having a problem in that im always moving forward. So to illustrate how fast you can move forward in HD, my friend was over 50feet away from me horizontally. It took me about 3 seconds to get to him while in HD,...that scared the sh*t out of me. But im very comfortable in a sit so it was no problem to transition. But if you cant sitfly and you find yourself in the same situation, then what will you do? cork out of HD and possibly endanger people above you? I dont think so!!

Even if you think you have all the sky in the world to play in,...if you stay in a bad headdown position for the whole jump, you'll be able to get into other peoples airspace.

[Trae 1]

in rep 2"From your profile

Disciplines of Choice:
Wing Suit Flying
Freefall Photography

The instructions posted will make 99% of the people back slide a lot faster than most people can track. "


I suppose I could have added you'll know if you're doing it close to alright cause the horizon wil be steady just like if you're stable in a head up or flat possy.

If you read my instructions carefully you'd notice that I recommended getting professional coaching before too many bad habits (such as the backsliding you mentioned ) set in.

I've had no complaints from people who just wanted to have a go.. not neceassarily be perfect the first time...in fact quite the opposite ...they can't wipe the smiles off their faces.
getting personal as you did....
My profile indicated my specific interests . I've had a go at just about everything I've wanted to in skydivingworld and had a phookin' fantastic time doing it.
If there is something I haven't had a go at it's hard core canopy swooping and major big -way world record attempts(still on my list of things to do ). So if you hear me giving canopy swoopin' advice or how to dock on a 300 way ..I know you'll give me a little nudge.

just love those toggle turns.

edited 'cause this is 4Eva.

[ncfitzge 0]

Heck I agree with all of you. I admit I only have about 20 heads up jumps and it has only been the last 2 or 3 that I have been able to move steady on all axises. I know it is dangerous to try HD without stable head up. But the point of all this, I want to try something different. If I just keep doing sit fly every time I go out the flipping door it will get boring and I would like something to mix it up a little. I'm not going to try and teach myself head down. I want to mess around with it on my own a couple of times and I will get a coach to help me with the big part. Heck, most people were telling me not do even try sit fly until around 50-75 jumps and look I can do those fine right now.

Like Woody and SKybytch were saying, you don't know how I fly! So why is there a standard, You can't do head down until 150-200 jumps. For all you know, I can be the best d*mn skydiver in the world or most likely the worst you have ever seen and Woody I don't want to hear about my landings. Thats a different story.

Ok, thats enough bytching. Trae answered my question on the basics of it. Thanks again.

#148 Sonic Scrat
"Have you ever kissed a rabbit between the eyes?" Woodpecker pulling out his pants pockets to the waitress

[mr2mk1g 10]

50 jumps total. 20 head up jumps. At least 25 student jumps. How about you try belly RW? Sounds like that's going to be something entirely new to you.

One big reason people are advised to do belly RW first before they move on to FF is that you are able to learn the principals of flying relative to others in a more safe environment than FF affords.

Closing speeds in FF have killed and or maimed. Closing speeds on your belly are lower (generally) and therefore offer a less dangerous forum for learning about flying relative to other people before you then go on to learn about freeflying with other people, forearmed with the skills you already have from your previous RW experiance.

The advice is not there to slow down your learning curve - it is there to speed up the learning curve, as well as keep you alive in the process.

[ncfitzge 0]

Actually, I had less the 7 student jumps, the rest were standard RW jump. My first jump, both instructors let go and I was on my own. By my third student jump, I was able to do unstable exit recovery within 3-5 seconds and do left 360, right 360, backloop, left 360, right 360, front loop, play a little on my own and track off and pull on my own. By jump four or five I was doing belly RW with a group of 5 and yes they were all certified coaches and the dropzone was being safe (they did video it). In roughly a week and a half I was able to complete 28 jumps and with 21.5 (buddy had a pre-deployment) were RW of some sorts, to include a 12 man jump. I tried the belly RW scene, it was boring, and the chief instructors suggested I start to sitfly.

Again, as I stated before, you have not seen me fly. The only person here that has is Woody and he has only seen me try to sitfly (first three video's vary scary) and crash hard a more than not. As people have talked about in other forums, some disciplines take certain individuals a long time to learn, like my landings. But there are other disciplines that they are able to get very quickly. With myself, I was able to do belly fly very quickly, accurately and safely. Another example, Woody was kicked out of AFF course to do RW on his second jump, not to mention he has never crashed or even dragged a knee while landing. But on the other hand, one of my other buddies was not able to stop turning during lvl 3 of his AFF.

In regards to speed, I realize FF gives less resistance and more speed. Therefore, I have only gone out with certified coaches. I am not doing FF RW. I am not going to go out with Woody and attempt head down. That is one of the few risks I am not willing to take.

In the end, I do not believe you should judge people on how few jumps they have. If they ask a question, just give them a straight up answer to it. Telling someone “Don’t be in a hurry” is not an answer. But telling someone “The best way is to go with a coach” or actually telling them “Dive forwards out the door in the same direction the aircrafts going and spread your legs” is great advice. He also did mention, this is to mess around with it and to learn get a coach.

Well enough venting. And as always, don’t forget to pull!

Fitz

#148 Sonic Scrat
"Have you ever kissed a rabbit between the eyes?" Woodpecker pulling out his pants pockets to the waitress

[Trae 1]

Go Bro's,

I reckon ya don't let people teach you this sport is hard.
The grounds hard .
It's FUN in the sky as long as you exercise an adequate degree of caution.

I had people telling me I wouldn't be able to do such n such until I had X amount of jumps.

I can fly rings around those people now and they only taught me how not to do it.

Be safe , keep your skydiving buddies and buddettes safe.. and you'll be lovin' this sport for a bally long time.

Blue skies and cloud canyons 4Eva...

[rehmwa 2]

Quote

They run around like spastics because they haven't perfected walking yet.

If you want to fly around like a drunk spastic then go ahead and have fun. If you want to actually progress and learn a discipline, listening to the advice of those who are trying to help you progress faster, is a great place to start.

Glorious!!! And I am "drunk spastic" type sitflyer and only marginally better than that in head down (can get plenty of soft docks, but it's really, really hard still). Still enjoy it a ton though.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[mr2mk1g 10]

Ok man, if you quit venting at me and actually listen you'll not hear me say anywhere "you shouldn't do such and such till you have X many jumps" or anything like that. I don't care how many jumps it takes you to get these skills; I only suggest that you get them before you try acquiring head down skills.

If you were turning a dozen points during your non USPA student progression that's cool, maybe you've already got all the life saving skills learnt from belly RW that you need to keep you from killing your friends. If you'd completed a USPA student progression it's unlikely that you would have been doing such jumps so early for safety reasons.

This is the only reason I mentioned your jump numbers at all - I did the maths and from a normal USPA student progression you would normally be sat at your pooter now with a massive amount of experiance gleaned from a whole 5 RW jumps. You were saying you wanted something new - so it sounded like RW must have been something new if that's all the experiance you had at it. If you've done a non-standard student progression then that may not be the case.

I'm simply saying you'll be a better flyer, faster if you learn some other skills first before you hit head down. I'm not in the slightest bit concerned how long it takes you to obtain skills themselves though.

You might be the mac-daddy at belly RW because you have a 3 foot cock which allows you to steer yourself about the sky for all I know - I don't care. I don't care how long it takes you to get the skills that make the next step faster and easier, I'm simply suggesting you get those skills because it makes the next stage quicker cheaper and safer.

Why do people advise this? Because you will be a better flyer sooner than if you just flail around in a back track for your next 50 jumps.

If you don't want to hear that advice that's not my problem. If you'd rather go off and become a poor freeflyer spending far more money and time trying to become a good freeflyer than you might otherwise have had to before ranting at anyone who suggests there's a better way, knock yourself out. I just hope that doesn't happen literally, cos what you have planned so far seems like a wicked good way to achieve it.

I'm not telling you to not be in a hurry – I'm saying because you are in a hurry the best way to get where you are wanting to be as fast as you can get there is to learn how to do X,Y and Z.

Pop quiz for you. I'll even make it multiple choice. Here's the scenario; you go out with a HD coach. You start to flail. You're no good at sit (you only got up on your feet in the last 2-3 jumps after all) so you fall out of HD onto your belly. You're now doing 120 mph and your coach is doing 180mph. What is your closing speed? Is it:
a) fast enough to kill us both.
b) fast enough to kill me and remove both his legs at the knee.
c) fast enough to knock me out so I wake up in a field spitting dirt with my reserve billowing about my head only for my S+TA to ground my ass for having a cypres fire.

At least get so you are really comfortable in sit, can recover from instability into sit without even thinking, and you never ever (and I do mean ever) go flat by mistake. After that things are less about not killing your coach and more about not having to put his next two kids through college for him.

[hookitt 0]

I read your post very clearly.

I don't want to hinder people from flying any way they wish to fly. Exactly the opposite.

Head down is just a position. People think they nail a position... and do it 100 times and think they can freefly yet they can't do any form of layouts, spins stand up daffies, walking on air...etc. Come on.. do something!!!

Go for the head down thing it's fun. Flip right back over to the feet... do a back flip.. pop on to your head.. then back over to your feet.. spin around a few times... Get it? Otherwise you've described the perfect backslide. I'm far from a hindrance, I encourage and suggest this stuff all the time.

When I started skydiving there was this cool calendar picture of a guy doing a standup with clouds in the background.... (Years later I met him, Shoobi Knutson, and he taught me lots about rigging) so by jump number 8.. the first one off student status... the word unstable had a whole new meaning. Wow... By jump number 20, I had it. It was probably backsliding but heck, it was beyond a doubt a stand up.

If you want to learn body awareness... a stagnant position isn't the key. Be dynamic and fluid in your movements. There was a guy that did a bunch of freestyle at the DZ at the time so also by jump 20, multiple back layouts were part of the game.

Think about this ..

Lay on your belly and put the top of your head toward the ground and lean forward You can see the horizon sitting there all nice and smooth just like you described.. .and it's upside down. Are you in a head down? No you are not.

Time and again, I watch people just go out and "sit" How many countless videos of people simply sitting their doing nothing are there? Try recommending stand-up’s, spins ... multiple layout back flips, stuff like that. That same grin will be there, and LOTS more will be learned.

Point the feet down, point the feet up.. repeat every few seconds. Basically it's like stomping on the ground (actually the air) then crouching then pushing the feet to the sky with the same amount of energy..

Keep it up ... but honestly you did describe exactly how most people will do their first major head down backslide... hopefully off the line of flight.

Years ago, armed with no real suggestions but try it .... exactly how you described ... I did... the after I opened 2 instructors from an AFF jump passed me on either side. Woops.. Wasn’t quite head down.... see what I'm getting at?

My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

[ncfitzge 0]

I understand what your trying to say and yes I do have a third leg to help me steer JK. I went to a USPA certified DZ. If you had a student and you noticed he is ahead of the curve, why would you hold him back from learning at his/her own pace? Both of my instructors were exception skydivers and they knew what they were doing. If they even the smallest thought that I would not be able to do it, they would have not let me jump.

I am still working on my sitfly. But I would like to TRY head down once or twice, that’s it and then I will go back to sitfly. Once I am able to be stable in sit no matter what situation, I will get a coach to help my on HD.

Now the answer to your question, that is if I remember physics class. Coaches should be in front or side of you. So if I loose control and go on my belly, he should be traveling at the normal head down speed of around 160-200, of course off the flight path. That means he will be traveling to the ground faster then myself. And say that I need about 5 seconds to recover even. If I am traveling at 120 and you at 180, that means with 5 seconds you will be 440 feet away from me. So I would pick the answer “D”. Of course that would be entirely different if the instructor was close to me, but we all know a good coach would not think of getting near someone that is new to HD.

Again thanks for your comments.

#148 Sonic Scrat
"Have you ever kissed a rabbit between the eyes?" Woodpecker pulling out his pants pockets to the waitress

[mr2mk1g 10]

I wasn't saying you should have been held back as a student (I'm sure that's enough for a whole other thread) I was just doing a little maths based on what was normal for a student to have undertaken. If you followed an unusual student progression then that maths is based on the flawed assumption that you followed the same progression as most others and therefore the same conclusions can't necessarily be reached.

For the silly quiz, of course D is hopefully the correct answer so long as your coach also hasn't made a human error. But then they're human - I personally try to rely as little as possible on other people not screwing up in order for me not to die. Of course that's sometimes necessary... but why do it though if it's not absolutely necessary?

The facetious quiz was simply me being an arse and trying to illustrate just one reason why most people want you to at least be competent at sit before learning HD.

As for just trying out HD I hope you got some tips, I'm sure you'll get more. If some here also try to help you out on how to best learn HD because you asked about "learnin head down", then that's our bad.

[sclosoma 0]

You don't need a coach to learn how to freefly if your an exceptional student then you should be able to find someone that would be willing to just help you out. Not everyone charges you to go on a jump with them. Maybe you should ask someone to go with you. Its not going to hurt to ask, but it might hurt not only you but someone else if you don't. The one thing you have to always remember is that its not only you up there and even if your just trying something it could end up very badly! Just try asking.

"Don't mistake common stupidity for common sense"
-Bill Dause

[Zoter 0]

Quote

I suppose I could have added you'll know if you're doing it close to alright cause the horizon wil be steady

Can I quietly suggest you check the horizon in front of you and to your side.....
If its 'flat and stable' in front of you but 'flat and angled' to the side of you.......you are travelling dude....

[woodpecker 0]

YEEEHAAAAA,

Sounds like someone has found that nerve fitz hides from the rest of us and tugged the s%$* out of it. Funny listening to him vent though. I agree with everything everyone said and took alot from this thread. I also appreciate the safety other jumpers are trying to instill in us all but think sometimes the safety gets a little overwhelming when they have never jumped with us and know exactly the skills. Yes, i was kicked out of an AFF class...of course i had over 100 jumps already and doing it for a refresher and a promise to the guy that still cant get out of a spin but i am an exceptional student. I've been jumping with fitz since he started and he's and exceptional learner....I'm sure there are tons of people that are past the learning curve and in stead of holding them back, please get us where we would like to be. I know everyone isnt safe in their progression but let me be the first to say that fitz doesnt do things balls out that he doesnt know or cant do yet. He want to try heads down to experience it...then progress with his jumping. Thats all......and i'm gonig to try it with him. Thanks for all the input and safety. Much appreciated and hoping to jump with you all at a DZ and have you help us out personally.

Answer D......your physics teacher would be proud fitz.

SONIC WOODY #146

There is a fine line between cockiness and confidence -- which side of the line are you on?