BergerBag aka 'Bandless D-Bag'

[deaffreeflyer 0]

Sunpath's new Berger Bag aka Bandless Bag

BergerBag Pic #1
BergerBag Pic #2
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BergerBag Pic #5

It's not out yet but I'll look forward to it cos it'll save my time searching some bands and not looking after my sore fingers!
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[matttrudeau 0]

I've seen it in use already at our dropzone. Mike Swanson from Alchemy is jumping it. I guess it works great with the right size canopy in the right size bag. They're still testing it before they put it into production. So far, so good. I wonder if it could eliminate the chances of a bag lock?

[deaffreeflyer 0]

Will it be good for any 3 sizes of canopies?
If it's too small for bag then bag'll be useless, loose and unsecure?
Too big canopy for it - it might be difficult to close the bag?
If it's too tight (big canopy and small bag) to open - will this causes bag lock?

I am sure Sunpath thought about those.
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[John4455 0]

It doesn't look like it would hold the lines tight. My biggest fear would be line-dump hard opening.

How do ya like it Johnny?

[matttrudeau 0]

You won't get hard openings just because this bag has no line stows. The line stows on a normal D bag just keeps the bag from spinning off your back they don't have a huge impact on opening speed. Those little rubber bands won't slow down a 120mph plus opening. All I know is that it works and it will be in production soon. If you want more info from the Sunpath, contact Aggie. [email protected]

[John4455 0]

Try loosely stowing your lines and see what happens

How do ya like it Johnny?

[PhreeZone 15]

Try not stowing your lines at all like I do and see what happens. Guess what... I can't tell the difference between a freestowed opening and a supertight rubberband packjob.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[hookitt 0]

Quote

Try loosely stowing your lines and see what happens

If this is to imply there will be a hard opening I'll take that challenge.... again....still.

All that is needed is to keep the bag closed until line stretch. It doesn't matter who fast the lines pay out.

Locking stows just tight enough to keep the bag shut, Various methods of securing (or lack of securing) the rest of the lines. Openings are not affected.

My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

[Hazarrd 1]

This looks sweet, can't wait for it to come out. It's almost like an idiot-proof deployment bag :)

.-.

[matttrudeau 0]

It's True! Most people have been taught that the line stows slow down the opening but they have nothing to do with that. It's just not their purpose. That's what the slider is for. Jumping without a slider could kill you at terminal, jumping without lines stows and you won't even notice a difference.

[John4455 0]

The Bergerbag may be a great thing. I know what works for me, and will let others try it out first. If it starts to catch on maybe I will try it.
This is from PD copied from this very website;

2. LINE STOW METHOD
Lines should be released one stow at a time. That sounds obvious, but it isn't as simple as it may seem. When the pilot chute first pulls the bag out of the container, it rapidly decelerates the bag. At that instant, the laws of motion say that the lines stowed on the bag will tend to continue with the jumper, rather than decelerate with the bag, unless a force opposes that motion. That force is supplied by the stow bands.
If the lines aren't stowed to the bag securely enough, they can all slip out at once. That means the stow bands attached to the bag are literally yanked right off the stowed lines. This is known as "line dump", and can lead to a very dangerous out of sequence opening. If the locking stows fall off, the canopy is released from the bag, and will start to open before it has reached line stretch. It starts filling with air almost instantly, while canopy and lines go everywhere! When the jumper traveling at terminal velocity finally reaches line stretch, he already has an open canopy and receives a brutal opening shock. This scenario can damage lines, canopies, risers, and really cause serious injuries. To prevent this from happening, the stows must be held fairly tightly so that they are only released in the proper order. To check you stows on the ground, it should take between 6 and 12 pounds of force to unstow the lines when pulling the bag across a smooth surface by the bridle. Use a fish scale on the bridle to check this.

Larger, heavier canopies will require more force, as does a canopy deployed at higher speeds. You can tighten your stows if they are too loose. If you use Tube Stoes, look at the instructions included with them. Follow the instructions labeled "For tighter Tube Stoes". Rubber bands can be tightened in the same way. Replace Tube Stoes or rubber bands when they appear worn. Do not wait until they break! The Line stows must have between 2 and 3 inches of line through each stow. Some jumpers make shorter stows because they fear baglock malfunctions. That is not a good idea. Short stows don't prevent baglocks, but really do promote line dump. This is because they only have to slip a little before they are free. Remember, line dump is potentially more dangerous than a baglock, since it can lead to equipment damage and bodily injury, possibly incapacitating the jumper.

How do ya like it Johnny?

[Hooknswoop 19]

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Try loosely stowing your lines and see what happens

I have done exactly that with a PD-170 and a Stiletto 97. Nice openings on both. As long as the locking stows hold the D-bag closed until line stretch, it doesn't make any difference. The rest of the lines are stowed (in rubber bands on mains and a Velcro pouch on reserves) so that they don't snag on the container flaps during deployment.

In order for loose stows to result in a hard opening, the canopy must come out of the bag before line stretch (bag strip/ bag dump). This can't happen if the locking stows hold the bag shut until line stretch.

Derek

[rigging65 0]

Quote

If the locking stows fall off, the canopy is released from the bag, and will start to open before it has reached line stretch. It starts filling with air almost instantly, while canopy and lines go everywhere!

If you read the PD info carefully, you'll find that no where does it directly mention that line dump itself will harm you. It's bag dump that causes problems. There were several threads here that discussed this...at length...as well as several jumpers that post here (myself included) that have been jumping without line stows for quite a while. As long as the bag stays shut and keeps the canopy in place until you want it to come out (ie - line stretch) you'll have a normal deployment. All rubberbands do is keep the lines in order, they do nothing for openings.

I've been jumping a completely stowless D-bag since November and it's been great. It's my own design, but is very similar to the bag SunPath is putting out...this makes sense though, as it's a pretty simple, obvious design. I was a bit surprised how similar it was when I saw it at PIA last Feb, but like I said, it's simple...and that's why it works.

My comments (as I've posted before) are that the bag only really fits one canopy size well. Since you're using tuck tabs to keep the bag closed, I'd be afraid to under or over stuff it for fear of bag dump or tab failure.

I really don't think the bag is all that useful for a majority of jumpers...especially anyone who isn't very set in their canopy size. As I've mentioned, it limits the range of canopies you can put in your container (in that bag anyway). Perhaps SunPath has worked this out...I couldn't find a good way to do it, but then I'm not as smart as they are. If you're only going to jump one size canopy and not change (or are willing to spend an extra $120 or so on a new bag when you do change), then you might not run into this problem as much.

I guess it would be nice not to have to change out rubberbands, but before changing to the stowless bag I was using the black SkyBandz and they rarely needed to be changed out anyway. If you're not careful when tucking in your stowless bag tuck tabs (or if you use a packer who is basically working as fast as s/he can, so may not take the time to smooth everything out), they can get bent or distorted and then they need to be replaced or rebuilt...certainly more work then changing a rubber band. It's the same thing as a riser cover getting warped...but instead of just a riser cover flapping around, you get bag dump. Baaaaaad juju.

I haven't found a reduction in line twists, but then I rarely have line twists on my canopy, so I can't truly comment on that. Maybe it helps, maybe it doesn't, but my opinion is that line stows have only a very small input in causing line twists. There are many other reasons why we get line twists, most are easily gotten rid of without changing bags.

At the end of the day, the stowless bag, IMO, is a nice gimic that is cool because it turns heads. Again, IMO, it doesn't change much from a deployment perspective, although you can probably stow your lines a bit faster. It does limit your ability to try a buddy's canopy or demo another size wing in your rig using your bag and pc set up though.

I like mine. I'll keep jumping it. Some people will get them because they're a gimic. Some people will get them to save changing rubberbands. Some people will get them because SunPath has it's name on it. Whatever...do what you like...just be informed before you do it!

"...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward.
For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

[mjosparky 3]

John,
You are wrong, any stows after the bag locking stows have no effect on you opening. If you don't believe it, check how you reserve is packed.
Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[JackR 0]

I believe that one of the other concerns that PD is addressing in this instruction is a possiblity of lines getting entangled. If one of the stows close to the locking stows dumps as the bag is being lifted off your back you have all that line flopping around while the other stows are coming undone. It opens the possibility for them to entangle with other stows.

This usually isn't a problem because there is more line bulk near the locking stows due to the cascaded lines. I wonder if the Ground Zero canopies have had any issue with this since they are not cascaded?

The BergerBag, CReW Tailpockets, BASE containers, and reserve freebags address this by allowing the lines to deploy through one center openning. This allows the lines to stretch in order from the links to the canopy.

- Jack

Packin' Jack
42nd Lost Prairie: The Ultimate Answer to Life, the Universe, and Skydiving
25 Jul - 3 Aug 2009
2007 photos: http://www.skydive.com/prairie/pages/prairie.htm

[GroundZero 0]

The Precision GZ canopies (specifically a Xaos) was jumped in this bag a number of times in Argentina. Derek reported no problems and comfirmed nice openings. I think the Bag is terrific. Can't wait to get one myself, I hate replacing ruibber bands...

Because I Bird-Man all the time, I keep leaving more and more lines unstowed... currently I leave about 5 feet unstowed with great results... Line stows are not necessary, but they simply aid in a "neat" packjob.

Release the bag (or send me one for further evaluation...)

This is the bag of the future.

Chris

[rigging65 0]

I've been jumping a similar bag design with a Xaos for quite a while...no problems at all. I figure-8 the lines, fold the flap over them and away you go. Works great!

"...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward.
For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

[cobaltdan 0]

jumping without lines stows will not make for a hard opening (all except locking stows). having your canopy catch air out of the bag before you are at line stretch will make for a hard opening.

sincerely,

dan<><>
www.extremefly.com

Daniel Preston <><>
atairaerodynamics.com (sport)
atairaerospace.com (military)

[billdo 0]

Quote

jumping without lines stows will not make for a hard opening (all except locking stows). having your canopy catch air out of the bag before you are at line stretch will make for a hard opening.

sincerely,

dan<><>
www.extremefly.com

I understand the concept and everything that everyone says about line stows, but was surprised to hear Dan say it since he was the one who "taught" me to double stow my lines on my cobalt and it continues to recommend this on Atairs website.

WTF? Dan, double stow or not?

[Unstable 8]

I can see how the design works and it seems to me like it is a good idea- but as with anything in this sport: Change is Slow, as it should be. I will look into getting one only after they have been in service for a few years and have been proven to work effectivly and consistantly.
Same Thing with the New AAD's on the market: i"m not going to be a guinnea pig. Until they gain a reputation for being a quality product, i will stick to my cypress...

=========Shaun ==========

[John4455 0]

Quote

I can see how the design works and it seems to me like it is a good idea- but as with anything in this sport: Change is Slow, as it should be. I will look into getting one only after they have been in service for a few years and have been proven to work effectivly and consistantly.
Same Thing with the New AAD's on the market: i"m not going to be a guinnea pig. Until they gain a reputation for being a quality product, i will stick to my cypress...

My point exactly. I have always taken that approach.
You know what they say about the pioneers..........
They are the ones with the arrows sticking out of them.

How do ya like it Johnny?

[NeedToJump 0]

A lot of people have been demoing these for a while now. The Norgies were using an older version which they did not like, but the design has since changed. I just recently spoke with Jay Moledski from the PD factory team about his. He said that he loved it, but would still recommend a few small changes to it and that it will probably been at least another few months before it is released. It's close though!

Wind Tunnel and Skydiving Coach http://www.ariperelman.com