5D mark II released !!

[mnealtx 0]

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Why? Besides the obvious weight/size, what specs of the 5d make it "MUCH better"?

ISO performance and weight. Those are the two major factors that make 5DMII much better.

Can you think of anything that makes 1DsMIII better in skydiving enviroment ?

I said "besides size/weight", thanks. How often are you having to use ISO 3200 or higher in a skydiving situation? If you're claiming that, I'm calling 'bullshit'.

The number of autofocus points, the greater number of 'cross type' sensor (lock onto horizontal AND vertical contrast lines) and the greater number of AF zones are a strong advantage to the 1D. Go look on the sideline of any pro sports game - 80+% of the cameras you'll see will be 1 Series Canons.

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Honestly, outside of the wanna-be-a-webcam stuff, I can't see where the 5d beats out the 30d, performance-wise.

Are you kidding ? Even the old 5D beats the crap out of the 30D.

Really? The only advantage the 5D has over the 30D are full-frame and the 'assist' AF points in regards to normal shooting. 5D MkII has higher ISO, but you're going to have to work hard to convince me that comes into play.

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It seems obvious you dont know what you are talking about, if you are calling the video feature: "wanna-be-a-webcam stuff"

Did you even read that blog ? Have you seen the quality of the video ?

I know plenty, thanks - I've done portrait, landscape and sport shooting for a few years, now. What's YOUR experience?

If I wanted a videocam, I'd buy a videocam. I give a shit less about getting point-n-shoot toys (live view/video) on what is considered a 'pro-sumer' DSLR.

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I have noticed a lot of photographers simply cant stand the fact that the 5DMII has the video feature. They are just saying videocamera is a videocamera and stillcamera is a stillcamera perioid. No arguments behind these statements.. Well if you dont want to use it.. then dont. If yo want to point out flaws in the video feature, feel free to do so. But please state reasons for your statements.

Off the top of my head?

Increased battery drain due to live view / vid buffer stream
Increased chance of buffer corruption due to constant data stream from video use.
AF system not optimized for video use
- or -
Possible degradation of 'normal' AF vs. dedicated DSLR AF system

What do you have on the plus side besides "ZOMG it takes movies too!!!!11!1!".

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[PhreeZone 15]

I shot a jump this weekend at 1600 ISO and wished I could have pushed it even further to 3200 since I don't jump with a flash but wanted to keep the shutter above 320 and the aperture above 5.6. I ended up getting ISO1600 with most shots at 8.0@320 with a good number of keepers. Going slower just results in too much motion blur in the jumpsuit.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[BMFin 0]

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I said "besides size/weight", thanks.

Besides size/weight ?

answer: ISO performance and picture quality in general.

Those are the two major factors. what more would you want ?

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How often are you having to use ISO 3200 or higher in a skydiving situation? If you're claiming that, I'm calling 'bullshit'.

I think theres a lot of times you need a high ISO value. I will give you a few examples:

Take a look at this photo and this photo that a friend of my took of us back in 2006

I can tell you they were shot with a 5D and the exposure time was 1/400 sec.

How much noise can you see in them ? I dont see much at all..

Secondly:

Not only being able to shoot clean high ISO is important but also being able to digitally correct the exposure afterwards with a low ISO value. Now a good sensitive censor will allow that also without adding much noise at all.

Third thing:

A crappy sensor like the 30D or 400D or similar, will produce a lot of noise even at low ISO values.

I will also provide you an example :

Now take a look at this photo I shot with ISO400 The outcome is prettymuch horrible in terms of noise.

Not only that it also applys in day light. Take a look at thisphoto I shot this summer with my 400D. It was shot in the middle of the day with 100 ISO and it still has a lot of noise in it. The whole picture is filled with noise. The photo in question is cropped to some extent, but less than 30% was cut out. Now Im positive, that a sensor like in the 5D would produce a beautifull clean nice and smooth picture with pretty much a non-existant level of noise.

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The number of autofocus points, the greater number of 'cross type' sensor (lock onto horizontal AND vertical contrast lines) and the greater number of AF zones are a strong advantage to the 1D.

Yes. And as I have said earlier in this thread, 1D series propably and most likely is superior to the 5D in terms of AF.

However, in skydiving photography AF is not nearly as important. Lots of people use manual focus anyways. Thats why I dont consider this as an issue at all.

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Go look on the sideline of any pro sports game - 80+% of the cameras you'll see will be 1 Series Canons.

Again, while this is correct it has no argument in this conversation. The main reasons for the 1d MIII being superior in sports photography is the AF and the 10fps speed. Two factors that arent NEARLY as important in freefall photography.

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Really? The only advantage the 5D has over the 30D are full-frame and the 'assist' AF points in regards to normal shooting.

Well first of all being Full Frame isn´t an absolute value. Some photographers like bird photographers for example prefer a cropped censor for its advantage with the focal distance. FF has its drawbacks and advantages. Personal preference does vary.

Secondly including the better AF, pretty much every other thing is also superior in the 5D than in the 30D. Perioid. This thing is pretty much self evident.

The only thing where the 30D outperforms is the price.

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5D MkII has higher ISO, but you're going to have to work hard to convince me that comes into play.

I already brought out a few arguments conserning the ISO performance. I guess I need not to copy paste that here anymore.

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It seems obvious you dont know what you are talking about, if you are calling the video feature: "wanna-be-a-webcam stuff"

Did you even read that blog ? Have you seen the quality of the video ?

I know plenty, thanks - I've done portrait, landscape and sport shooting for a few years, now.

Now you didnt answer my question. did you actually even read the blog by Vincent Lafarette I posted. I also asked if you have actually seen any footage shot with 5DM2 where you simply answer : "I know plenty, thanks" which is IMO quite a weak argument trying to prove he is talking bullshit when he says this is propably the most exiting thing happening in the industry in a LONG time..

but if you have seen the footage shot with the 5DM2 PLEASE OH PLEASE tell me if you can do that with the 30D and if theres any flaws or things you dont like in the quality of the 5DM2 footage PLEASE point them out..

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What's YOUR experience?

My experiense is very short. I bought my 1st SLR in the beginning of this year and so far I have only shot about 9000 (more less well selected) frames with it.



I might also ask you what is your experience in freefall photography, but I doubt anyhow it has any relevance in this question neither does my experience. If you think I am mistaken or wrong with any of my opinions or facts, please feel free to disagree and prove me wrong. The only thing I see as relevant here is to reason your arguments with facts and logic rather than just saying: "i know plenty, thanks" or " I've done portrait, landscape and sport shooting for a few years" .. To me it has no argument value at all..

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If I wanted a videocam, I'd buy a videocam. I give a shit less about getting point-n-shoot toys (live view/video) on what is considered a 'pro-sumer' DSLR.

Ummm.. ok... What you personally like isnt really relevant here either. What would be relevant would be that if you would reason your statements suggesting the low quality of the video.

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Off the top of my head?

Increased battery drain due to live view / vid buffer stream

On top of my head I guess you could turn off the live view if you dont want it.

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AF system not optimized for video use

-or-

Possible degradation of 'normal' AF vs. dedicated DSLR AF system

According to my knowlege, REAL video cameras dont even have AF. They are full manual. (some one may correct me if Im mistaken)

However, the 5DM2 has AF for video if you need it, and the technique is based on contrast. So your guess about it interfering with the DSLR AF is a miss..

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What do you have on the plus side besides "ZOMG it takes movies too!!!!11!1!".

In a nutshell, most of the reviews I have read so far says that the picture quality of the camera is best among the canon lineup so far. Also the video feature is being predicted to revolutionize the whole industry.. Hows that ?!

[DSE 3]

According to my knowlege, REAL video cameras dont even have AF. They are full manual. (some one may correct me if Im mistaken)


In a nutshell, most of the reviews I have read so far says that the picture quality of the camera is best among the canon lineup so far. Also the video feature is being predicted to revolutionize the whole industry.. Hows that ?!

Consider yourself corrected. XDCAM HD (most common HD cam in the ENG/EFP market today) has autofocus. Canon is building most o their lenses for future with auto-focus ability. It no longer is "taboo" to use autofocus, particularly with HD.
The concept that the "video feature is predicted to revolutionize the whole industry" is a prediction made by someone who doesn't shoot video.
It *is* a sweet feature, but essentially meaningless in the grand scheme of things.
However, I do agree with you that the new 5DMKII is a serious step into the realm of the 1D. But...Canon has some sweet things up their sleeve. Wait'll CES 09'

[BMFin 0]

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Consider yourself corrected. XDCAM HD (most common HD cam in the ENG/EFP market today) has autofocus. Canon is building most o their lenses for future with auto-focus ability. It no longer is "taboo" to use autofocus, particularly with HD.

I stand corrected.

However, the mainpoint with what I said still applies. It doesnt matter even if the video AF is not optimized for video use (like mnealtx claimed), since a lot of REALLY pro video cameras dont even have autofocus.

May it be that the newer HD cameras have AF, it doesnt mean that you could no longer call a videocamera without AF as a pro camera.

Do you agree ?

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The concept that the "video feature is predicted to revolutionize the whole industry" is a prediction made by someone who doesn't shoot video.

Yes, you are right. However, that someone happens to be a pulizer price winning photographer. I would be suprised if he´d be totally clueless about video industry in general and still making such predictions.

If you have predictions, opinions or reviews on the 5DM2 made by someone who you consider as a accomplished videographer, please post them I would love to hear more..

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It *is* a sweet feature, but essentially meaningless in the grand scheme of things.
However, I do agree with you that the new 5DMKII is a serious step into the realm of the 1D. But...Canon has some sweet things up their sleeve. Wait'll CES 09'

If you mean the 1D(s)Mark IV, I assume it will be a sweet camera, though perhaps not so intresting in my point of view mainly because of the price and size+weight..

[DSE 3]

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Yes, you are right. However, that someone happens to be a pulizer price winning photographer. I would be suprised if he´d be totally clueless about video industry in general and still making such predictions.

If you have predictions, opinions or reviews on the 5DM2 made by someone who you consider as a accomplished videographer, please post them I would love to hear more..

Well....if that's your criteria...I'm a multi-Emmy Award winning producer, Peabody and DuPont recipient...none of those things mean much when it comes to opining on a camera, IMO. I'm just as full of shit as the next guy at times. Just look at Bonfire as one example.
I think the 5DMKII is a sweet cam from what I've seen of it. I think it's a great cam for serious skydiving photography. I think only an idiot would use it for tandem and grunt work. Too much camera, too much weight...But that's just me. Ask Norman or Laszlo for their opinion, it's more valid in the realm of skydiving photography.
Would NEVER consider using this camera as a video camera.
Now you're getting into some weird semantics. Define a "really pro" video camera. You're suggesting for example, that HDCAM or XDCAM HD aren't "really pro?" Mneal is correct in his assertion about autofocus and video.
We're a LONG way off still, from video and stll cameras being one unit.

[Laszloimage 0]

Man...
You can't even compare the image quality of the 30D vs. 5D. The difference is huge!
The 30D has faster burst rate and maybe better AF, but I wouldn't look at that part of the specs. as "superior".
The 5D has a13MP full frame sensor vs. APS size 8MP on tthe 30D.
For jumping using wide angle lenses the AF doesn't really make any diffrence since I use DOF calculation and set it manually (it works!).
For fast and accurate AF the good lens is the most.
I use my XT (yes the 400D) every day for tandem landing shots and I use only ONE focus point out of the seven (seven AF points considered not the best AF). but I use a very good lens. That's how it works the best.
I agree that when you're journalist and not really a photographer you'll need the best auto features to get the shot. But in skydiving (where we suppose to know the "nature of the game"), nature photography,
fashion photography, and so on... the real measurment for the camera is resolution, signal/noise ratio, color tone, dynamic range, DOF (which has lot to do with the size of the senzor), and lot more which determines the actual image quality.
For example the XT (400D) takes exactly same quality photos as the 20D or the 30D. The 30D has better AUTO features but not better picture! Because of its 13MP full frame CMOS image sensor the 5D is far ahead of the 20D, 30D, 40D, maybe even the new 50D. Also you need a very good lens to make worth your camera. Further more I prefer as much manual setting as possible vs. "super duper" auto features and burst mode. (...yes that's when the knowledge plays important role) Using auto setting the camera takes the image. Using manual settings (as much as possible) the photographer takes the photo.
-Laszlo-

[FreeflyChile 0]

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According to my knowlege, REAL video cameras dont even have AF. They are full manual. (some one may correct me if Im mistaken)


In a nutshell, most of the reviews I have read so far says that the picture quality of the camera is best among the canon lineup so far. Also the video feature is being predicted to revolutionize the whole industry.. Hows that ?!

Consider yourself corrected. XDCAM HD (most common HD cam in the ENG/EFP market today) has autofocus. Canon is building most o their lenses for future with auto-focus ability. It no longer is "taboo" to use autofocus, particularly with HD.
The concept that the "video feature is predicted to revolutionize the whole industry" is a prediction made by someone who doesn't shoot video.
It *is* a sweet feature, but essentially meaningless in the grand scheme of things.
However, I do agree with you that the new 5DMKII is a serious step into the realm of the 1D. But...Canon has some sweet things up their sleeve. Wait'll CES 09'

Damn it...I'm sure you are bound by NDAs to not say anything but I really want to know!!

So how long til the 5D Mark 2 is actually in stores?

[DSE 3]

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Damn it...I'm sure you are bound by NDAs to not say anything but I really want to know!!

So how long til the 5D Mark 2 is actually in stores?

I'm told by Xmas season, which is Thanksgiving or sooner

[BMFin 0]

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Well....if that's your criteria...I'm a multi-Emmy Award winning producer, Peabody and DuPont recipient...none of those things mean much when it comes to opining on a camera, IMO. I'm just as full of shit as the next guy at times. Just look at Bonfire as one example.
I think the 5DMKII is a sweet cam from what I've seen of it.

Im sure you are very competent videographer, but what I didnt know is that you have already seen it.

Did you shoot video ? How did it perform? Care to post a sample ?

What made you decide you would never consider using it as a video camera ?

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I think it's a great cam for serious skydiving photography. I think only an idiot would use it for tandem and grunt work.

Mostly I agree. I wouldn´t use it everyday either. Not so much because of the weight. (comparing my current 400 D + 10-22 set up to 5DM2 + 15mm canon it would be only 250 grams heavier..), but mostly because I would be too afraid to break it or otherwise jeopardise an expensive piece of equipment only for some tandem customer to whom we hand away the pictures for free anyway... (20-50 bucks a set of such unique fotos is ridiculosly cheap)

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Now you're getting into some weird semantics. Define a "really pro" video camera. You're suggesting for example, that HDCAM or XDCAM HD aren't "really pro?" Mneal is correct in his assertion about autofocus and video.
We're a LONG way off still, from video and stll cameras being one unit.

No you misunderstood me completely.

This is what mnealtx claimed:

"AF system not optimized for video use"

In other words hes claiming that 5DM2 serves no purpose as a video camera BECAUSE it doesnt have a proper auto focus.

Now my answer to that was:

Not all proper video cameras have autofocus. It doesnt mean its a micky mouse camera only because it doesnt have auto focus.

As I have understood most of the big production movies (filmed with panavison equipment for example) are more less filmed with using autofocus. Does it mean they were shot with mickey mouse cameras only because theres no auto focus ?

[BMFin 0]

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Damn it...I'm sure you are bound by NDAs to not say anything but I really want to know!!

So how long til the 5D Mark 2 is actually in stores?

I'm told by Xmas season, which is Thanksgiving or sooner

Here in finland it was announced by one retailer that the 1st ones will arrive 19.10.2008

[DSE 3]

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As I have understood most of the big production movies (filmed with panavison equipment for example) are more less filmed with using autofocus. Does it mean they were shot with mickey mouse cameras only because theres no auto focus ?

What lens can be used on a Panavision, Genesis, or Viper that has autofocus? Measure and mark, never autofocus. Panavision isn't HD.
Autofocus for moving pictures is different than autofocus for stills. There are other issues as well, but bottom line is, still cameras aren't video cameras. People who shoot stills want as many megapixels as they can get and don't care at all about fps. Those who shoot videowant fps and care nothing about megapixels.
We *do* often use still primes on video cameras with devices such as the Letus, RedRock Micro, etc, but the compression, storage, etc of a still camera don't get us there. yet.
Having or not having auto-focus doesn't define a professional vs consumer camcorder. It might be a consideration, but by no means is a baseline.
Look...if you wanna use it for a video camera, go for it. I wouldn't. It's a very sweet camera tho, one I plan on owning.
I can't post footage, because I don't have any. Seeing it at a press event/announcement isn't the same as having one in the field.

[FreeflyChile 0]

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Damn it...I'm sure you are bound by NDAs to not say anything but I really want to know!!

So how long til the 5D Mark 2 is actually in stores?

I'm told by Xmas season, which is Thanksgiving or sooner

Sweet!

[BMFin 0]

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What lens can be used on a Panavision, Genesis, or Viper that has autofocus?

You tell me, your the "multi-Emmy Award winning producer, Peabody and DuPont recipient" Thats pretty much the point I was making. Those top of the line cameras dont necessarely have auto focus..

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Panavision isn't HD.

So what ?

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Autofocus for moving pictures is different than autofocus for stills.

Yeah.. and thats why I was saying it wont matter that the video mode doesnt have a decent AF. The still camera it self has a pretty decent AF however..

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Having or not having auto-focus doesn't define a professional vs consumer camcorder.

That was exactly my point when we started to talk about the meaning of not having AF optimized for video..

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Look...if you wanna use it for a video camera, go for it. I wouldn't.

Still you havent, nor anyone else, been able to tell me what exactly is wrong with the video ?

So far theres not a single thing said in this thread about whats wrong with it, other than the line of :

"I dont like the idea of having them both together, that just isnt right"

or

"If you wanna use it, Fine use it.."

[DSE 3]

The camera can't guarantee sustained rates of data. That's critical.
The form factor is not conducive to video.
YOU'RE the one that brought Panavision into the discussion. Panavision isn't HD, nor is it video, unless you're talking about SR taps. At that level, you're so far out of the skydiving realm, we may as well be talking about IMAX.
You're either talking in circles or I'm an idiot, cuz I surely can't' understand what the hell you're trying to say. First, you think it's a great video camera, now you say it might not be a great video camera but the stills section is great. I'm not following your argument.
Bottom line from my perspective, you've convinced yourself this is a great camera even though you've not seen it. I think it's a great STILL camera, and I have seen it. I don't think it's a great video camera, and I have seen it.
I also am of the opinion that we're a long, long way off of convergence. Be great when we're there, but we're a long ways off. I see the video feature as more of a note-taking feature for photographers than an alternative to a video camera on a helmet.
Your opinion may be different, just as your requirements may be. I fully intend to own one, but fully intend to use it as a specialized still camera.

[DSE 3]

Here ya go Check out the image skew in the past 10-12 frames. Sensor timing can't handle it...
Completely understandable, too. To demosaic 21MP, average it, resample to 1920 x 1080, then compress to h.264 is a HUGE amount of processing, making for a hot camera, making for less efficiency, making for all sorts of problems.
If you divide the sensor in half, it remaps to 2808x1872 very nicely. This may be what they're doing, because the camera can't shoot in crop mode when working with video. This would easily resample to 1920 x 1080 p30.

It's sure a helluva lot closer to reality than the RED Scarlet I'm still chuckling over in another thread, but still won't be a video camera for me.
Side note, talked to an audio cat in NYC that is already developing a stereo audio input for this cam. It might spawn a nice cottage industry...

[cj1150gs 0]

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Anyway, I wonder what a 2MP screengrab from a SLR would look - this is all quite new and very exciting! I can't download the 200 MB sample files available on dpreview, but i'd sure like to see a few framegrabs!

Jesus! I've looked into this dude's LaForet video, making of and blog and I am stunned! The downsized framegrabs are amazing!

Quoting the man himself:

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Also Max - the quality of this video is so high - that I see you pulling stills from it - and not needing to shoot still unless there are special circumstances ( i.e. you need to run the image vertically on a cover… or you need to stop fast action such as sports) That is unless you can set this camera to faster than 1/125th of a second in terms of video shutter speed… heck you may be able to… I just don’t know… and we shot only at night so I didn’t test it out for that… remember: they didn’t give me a manual (at Canon) and hadn’t had a chance to play with it themselves prior to letting me leave the building with it…
Comment by Vincent Laforet 09.20.08 @ 4:40 pm

Sure, he used a nice array of lenses, but the result is amazing! Exciting times, that's for sure!

Carlos Martins
Portugal www.cj.smugmug.com

[cj1150gs 0]

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It is possible to take stills while recording video, but the camera will pause the video rec for the time it takes to shoot the stills.

How long could that be? If it just steals a few frames from the 30 fps everytime you press the shutter, that coud be OK.

Kept reading the comments on the blog and answering myself.

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Vincent, I noticed your comment:

“The camera does momentarily pause of course when you take a picture - but it takes right back up after the picture taking is done and keeps rolling…”

Are you talking msec here or what time frame?

Thomas - I’d say under a second - you can notice the break in the video of course… but given the quality of a 1920 X 1080 video clip… you really have to ask yourself… why would anyone want to shoot a still in the midst of a video shot (unless you ‘re in the examples I gave above..) or shooting a sporting event where you needed to shoot action.

Well, that would be our case

Carlos Martins
Portugal www.cj.smugmug.com

[tonyhathaway 0]

Laci shoots some of the best photos in the world, and many of them are done with a "crappy" old rebel 6mp camera with crop factor and slowish burst rate. Give him a shoe box and aluminum foil up there and something nice would come out of it.

My O.C.D. has me chasing a dream my A.D.D. won't let me catch.

[flow 1]

http://www.usa.canon.com/dlc/controller?act=GetArticleAct&articleID=2086

There is a videosample on Canon's homepage. Pretty sweet if you ask me.

I was just editing SD video when I saw this clip and finally I think I need to get myself a HD-cam...

[Laszloimage 0]

Thanks Tony!
...I got a few ideas from you too though.

[DSE 3]

Nice review from someone I work wth on the Canon 5DMKII.
He had access to the Ducati card; I didn't. That's a nice commentary on speed...

[BMFin 0]

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Nice review from someone I work wth on the Canon 5DMKII.
He had access to the Ducati card; I didn't. That's a nice commentary on speed...

The link you posted brings me to 50D review, not 5DMKII

[DSE 3]

oops, grabbed the wrong thread. Thanks for the catch!

[BMFin 0]

Zacuto seems to make nice video equipment for the 5D mark II

http://vimeo.com/2223602

1st production models were delivered already some time ago and theres a lot of test videos around.

For example here

Looks very promising.