Am I a Jerk because I am a camera man?

[davidpanal 0]

I kind of asked this question but I am asking it again. I can say that I am a very nice guy. When someone needs help I am there as much as I can, I help new skydivers with anyway I can. I can say that I am good with everyone. Problems started after I started to do video and still. People keep asking photos from me for free.Since I do not have a official business yet I do not know what to do. I asked some fee but you should see them when I told them I sell the photos, like " heyy you were a nice guy now you are a asshole" By the way my work is very good as the equipment I use, I spend about 2300 euro $2700. Any idea what to do about it?
An other thing is one tandem master is using my photos in his website against my will. I did the photos of friends sister who I did not charge. Then I saw this tandem master whom I have problem with is using my photos. Since I have no official business can I do something about it?
One last thing I see more and more independent tandem masters getting video man ( I would not call them video man) with as low as 150 jumps and asking them to do tandem video. Is it right? Is it legal?

[DSE 3]

this isn't just a skydiving question...it's an "every industry" question.
You have something everyone wants; the ability to visually preserve memories with a creative flair. Just like some people think it's OK to use copyrighted music in their video, create compilation discs for their friends, etc., there will always be people that expect you to give away your talent and use your equipment without them paying for it. One guy at my DZ saw a huge blowup of a shot I took, he asked what it cost. Thinking he meant "how much did it cost to print that" I responded with "$225.00."
He replies with "OK, so for 245.00, you could do that for me?" Sorry, the cost of the slot and print don't quite cover it. He was pissed.
So yeah, if you want to be paid at a rate that allows you to recover gear costs in a reasonable amount of time, that at least recognizes your skills in the air (or on the ground), and gives you at least enough afterwards to buy a cold drink...yes. you're a jerk.
There is always someone there with lesser quality gear with lesser quality skill that will do the shot for less.
As far as tandems getting their own video man who has very few jumps? If the TM is willing to accept the risks of jumping with them, I don't think there is much you can do. In the US, it's legal. Maybe not right, but legal.

[tonyhathaway 0]

Buy a Van Halen CD, it cost $15. Ask Van Halen if you could use their $15 CD to use in a soundtrack for a Jim Carrie movie, do you think they would charge you $15 and give you a disk and say go ahead? Its the same CD and music. You don't pay for what they give you,(a cheap plastic disk) you pay for what you get. (the ability to use it for something other than just listening to it) This goes for a company wanting you to shoot a tandem video for their commercial. you do the same thing, go out and shoot a tandem they expect to pay $50 since thats what the "fun" tandems are paying. They aren't paying for what I'm DOING (though that is part of it) they pay extra for what they GET out it, meaning the advertising.
My long winded reply is that it doesn't matter if you are a professional with many jumps or a beginner. If you shoot photos that someone wants, that means they are good enough that someone wants them, and if you want to charge for them there is NO reason not to. If you as a shooter wants to put one on YOUR wall, it cost you.If anyone else wants to put one on THIER wall (or advertising) then they can share in the cost as well. If someone doesn't want to pay, and you don't want to give them away, then you will always have the people who don't like that. Get used to it really. I still deal with it sometimes. There are always people who want me to get a 9-5 job so I can afford to give away my photos. Just my opinion........

My O.C.D. has me chasing a dream my A.D.D. won't let me catch.

[jtval 0]

Yes. You are an asshole, BUT when you consider those who think that you'll be ok.

(That probably doesn't make as much sense when you read as when I say it.)

To ME you Are NOT an asshole but to people who EXPECT you to give everything away you ARE. I wouldn't worry too much about THEIR feelings since they don't care about yours.

As hard as it is to do you HAVE TO charge your friends.(and obviously strangers)
If you click the Mesquite link in my signature block you can see some of my stills and vid that I did NOT charge the DZO to use. I also give LOTS of pictures and video away...to those that help me out in return.

There was a couple that started jumping at my DZ a while ago who used up the patience I set aside for them. I am totally done with them. It will cost them money just to ask me a question from now on.

but for the TM/rigger, DZO and select few I am like a secondary storage facility of photos and video....But they also hook ME up in return.

My Rigger/TM gives me discounts on rigging and he is giving me two free tandems when My family come to town. He is TOTALLY hooking me up enough for me throw him videos and "the money shots" for his website.

While some would say that the cost of his advertisment doesn't of set the occasional discounted jump or rigging. I feel it is.

But when some jackass asks me to "hey man, can you burn me a dvd/cd?" I say "Sure" tand tell him how much it will cost. if they get offended I am okay with that. it's THEIR LOSS, because I take some damn good shots and it didn't take 8 jumps to get that ability.

NOW, if I ask someone if I can jump with them and take pictures/vid and they'd like to have, all they have to do is cover my cost.
When someone asks to me film their jump they get charged more due to the fact that I am actually WORKING to get specific shots.

My problem is that I LOVE FILMING AND SHOOTING. SInce i bought my helmet there has only been about 5 times that I didn't wear it. Most of the those jumps were when I jumped new gear.

Once I decided that I was a CAMERA FLYER, as opposed to a guy with a camera on his head, I decided it was toime to charge people.

My photos

My Videos

[Feeblemind 1]

Wow I get the opposite at my DZ. I am new to the video/still arena and jumped a lot of camera on my own money to develop my skills (and I still do so today) I now find that when I arrive at the DZ I am often asked to fly camera and have to be an asshole and decline when I am there to free fly. I have gotten a few good shots and the jumpers that want them eagerly offer to pay me for them. i have given some work away to folks that have allowed me to film them why I was learning (yes, I crashed through a group or two).

I guess at My DZ they understand a the following:

FTP: $700
HC5: $1000
D70 $800
W/A lens $500
Assoc Hardware $200

Total $3200


I now rarely give work away as it dilutes the market from the camera flyers that are making a living at skydiving. I am still new also and I won't "ALWAYS" get the shot, if they want 100% of getting the shot, I send them to one of the DZ staff video flyers that I know will get it for them.

Fire Safety Tip: Don't fry bacon while naked

[freefalle 0]

I think that every one of us on here has gone through the exact same thing you are lamenting over. When I first started shooting video and stills, from time to time I would just give them away, until one of the video guys at the DZ looked at my work and said "your work quality has reached a level where you need to start charging for it" From time to time people still say "hey can you email me that picture" and I politely remind them that I well my photos and video to offset my cost of gear and training. My prices aren't outrageous but there what I have set. Perhaps you might want to get business cards made up, when someone asks you for one of the prints hand them a card with the prices on it and your email address, tell them to let you know which one they want to but and have them email you their address so you can send them the print or make arrangements to drop it off to them.

It amazes me they number of people who will say dude were "friends" I ant believe you wont just let me have that picture. I usually respond you are friends with your packer right, try asking them for a free pack job, hell your friends with the dzo too right, try asking him for free jump tickets.,,,,,

[quade 3]

When I first started skydiving I ran into a camera flyer by the name of "Mr. Scott". One of many people that have influenced my camera flying.

Mr. Scott is a damn interesting fellow. Has done a lot of things, seen a lot of stuff, jumped camera for some interesting people. He's also got this aura around him that he projects that some people find a little off putting. Obviously, he doesn't give a rat's ass and in fact he promotes it -- heavily.

He sat me down one day and we talked a bit about "the business". He handed me what he calls his "list of demands" that he gives teams and folks that want to purchase his services. He spells out exactly who owns what, how things are to be dealt with, how much he gets paid and reserves the right to leave the group at anytime he doesn't like anything even remotely connected to a safety issue.

Well, he didn't just pull this list out of his ass. Over the years he had learned that if you don't command respect up front, you won't get it and teams will nickle and dime the cap out of you and walk all over you. You may serve them, but never place yourself in their servitude.

Is Mr. Scott perhaps an extreme example? Sure, but I'll tell ya one thing, I respect him and he's a hell of a nice guy once you're able to break through that aura.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[AndyMan 7]

I'm more than happy to let other people give away their photos. I don't.

I get some flak for it, sometimes. People complain when I charge for my prints when others at the DZ hand out 8X10's for free. The complaints don't really bother me - I'm more than happy to pull on my RW suit if nobody wants to buy my photos. Not only are those electronics expensive, but they're also quite heavy, so I'm happy to leave them on the ground.

_Am

__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[Feeblemind 1]

Quote

I'm more than happy to let other people give away their photos. I don't.

I get some flak for it, sometimes. People complain when I charge for my prints when others at the DZ hand out 8X10's for free. The complaints don't really bother me - I'm more than happy to pull on my RW suit if nobody wants to buy my photos. Not only are those electronics expensive, but they're also quite heavy, so I'm happy to leave them on the ground.

_Am

Right On Brother!!! I would much rather Freefly myself!!

Fire Safety Tip: Don't fry bacon while naked

[jtval 0]

I USED TO give all kinds of stuff away.

but it was fucking ridiculous when people would ask me for shit and not so much as thank me.

Well, fuck them.


I still give stuff to people...but there's a price involved.

I am trying to come up with a fair price, though.

My photos

My Videos

[AFFI 0]

"Am I a Jerk because I am a camera man?"

Yes, but only to skydivers who want something for nothing.

Mykel AFF-I10
Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…

[namgrunt 0]

being a CAMERA MAN is
art
skill
ability
being able to SEE the picture
expensive equipment
but most of all being able to do something most cant even see..its a CAMERA MAN thing

I have over $36,000.00 in my gear and would give away my work if only I could afford to ..but charge what it is worth to break even

and yes its free to those that do favorers to and for me.

..

59 YEARS,OVERWEIGHT,BALDIND,X-GRUNT
LAST MIL. JUMP VIET-NAM(QUAN-TRI)
www.dzmemories.com

[AFFI 0]

Quote

charge what it is worth to break even

There is a trick that is very difficult to pull off...

Mykel AFF-I10
Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…

[Zee 0]

Quote

Just like some people think it's OK to use copyrighted music in their video

And you'll find that practically every DZ on earth puts copyrighted music on tandem videos...

Perhaps you can shed some light on this for me?

#1, If I go out and purchase a CD at the store and then use the music that I just paid for, to add some flair to a compilation video that will not be sold or used for any commercial purpose whatsoever, am I in fact breaking the law?

If I post the same video on my personal web page, Skydivingmovies.com, or even YouTube, am I now committing a copyright violaton?


#2, I do some photo work at the track when I'm out practicing and often sell shots under a "personal use" license to a friend of mine that runs a site that sells t-shirts and he posts them on his site under the "Racing" section. It's just a link to a page that documents his progress in the local racing series.

I don't have a problem with it since he did pay for the pictures, he asked my permission first, and they're really not being used in advertising....directly anyway.

The same guy bought some pictures off another guys website - Unlike mine , his site doesn't offer an option to choose commercial or personal license and there is no legal documentation on his site at all. My buddy posted one of his pictures in the "Racing" section as he had done with mine, and the guy got his panties in a twist.

Is he committing a copyright violation?

Just thought you might have a better understanding of this stuff than most with your musical and editing background...

Thanks,

z

Action©Sports

[DSE 3]

Quote

#1, If I go out and purchase a CD at the store and then use the music that I just paid for, to add some flair to a compilation video that will not be sold or used for any commercial purpose whatsoever, am I in fact breaking the law?

If I post the same video on my personal web page, Skydivingmovies.com, or even YouTube, am I now committing a copyright violaton?

Absolutely you're violating copyright. Doesn't matter if you're profiting from it or not. In fact, copyright violation (once a civil-only offense) is now a criminal offense as well. You didn't pay for the music, you paid for the right to listen to the music. You own a shiny silver disc but you don't own it's contents. Only the writer and/or publisher own the content.

Quote

The same guy bought some pictures off another guys website - Unlike mine , his site doesn't offer an option to choose commercial or personal license and there is no legal documentation on his site at all. My buddy posted one of his pictures in the "Racing" section as he had done with mine, and the guy got his panties in a twist.

Is he committing a copyright violation?

yes, he is. It would be odd to sell pictures on a website without spelling out the license granted, though.
Example; I shoot pix of a race, and I have a particularly cool pic of a nose over the finish line.
I sell the shot as a print. This is my right of course.
The person that bought the print scans the print and uses it on a website, Tshirt, or whatever. That person is now in violation of copyright. I allowed them to "license" one copy of the picture, the copy that I provided them. I didn't give them the right to scan it and use it elsewhere. This is no different than using a song from a popular (or unpopular) CD.
I for one, will not use copyrighted works. Not only is it unethical, but for me...there is too much at stake. I either write my own, or use royalty free. Last month I attended a NARAS gathering where they showed us song-identification software that can find songs on Youtube, LiveLeak, etc. It can also identify the IP from which the content was uploaded. Eventually, the RIAA *will* be coming after you. Maybe not today, maybe not next week or next year, but bet the farm that you are a target in the future for using copyrighted works.
Google for "My Voice, My Choice" and you'll find an article I wrote on this subject a while back. it provides explicit examples of violation.

[Zee 0]

Very good info.

Thank you!

z

That's a great article, by the way..

Action©Sports

[Shyandinnocent 0]

Quote

Yes. You are an asshole, BUT when you consider those who think that you'll be ok.

(That probably doesn't make as much sense when you read as when I say it.)

Had to read it out loud once or twice to get your meaning

Agree with jtval!
YES you are an asshole. Don't worry, there are many of us!

When people expect to get something for nothing, and think you're a jerk when you won't give it to them... Tell em to get f....d!
It's YOUR gear, and YOUR jumps. You do what you want to do!

IM

(edited for spelling)

It's never too late for a low turn!

[Icon134 0]

being a budding camera flyer myself... I certainly don't think you're a jerk... I regularly go on fun jumps flying camera but I won't give away footage (I will let people review the jump.)

Generally if a local fun jumper wants the video (or stills) I'll offer to burn them a DVD for a nominal fee.

I more or less do camera jumps for fun so I'm not bent on making a ton of money but that doesn't mean I haven't put in time and money to gain skills, put together helmets, and am taking a chance being over RW groups that could easily kill me (just last weekend one of the jumpers on a 4-way I was videoing discovered his reserve handle floating after opening... while watching the video we noticed that it was floating most of the jump...)

Livin' on the Edge... sleeping with my rigger's wife...

[riggerrob 558]

Ass, grass or gas, nobody rides for free!

Does that make me sound like a grumpy. old hippy?

Good!

Seriously, if they are really your friends, they will give you lemonade, pizza, beer, rides to the DZ, etc. in return for "free" photos.