MPEG4 Camera

[jcosta 0]

I was looking for a really light weight video camera. I have two sony mini-dv cams now but I was wondering if anyone has ever tried to use one of these? DXG-305V

http://www.jr.com/JRProductPage.process?Product=4027174&JRSource=nsa&nsa=1

It says they record at 30 fps but I am not sure if they can take an external lens or how long they would record for.

I was looking at it just for shooting student video. You can get them for less than $90 bucks! At that price I could buy 4 and not worry about tearing it up to much!

Anyone try these yet?

[mccordia 73]

Most of these cheep mpg4 cams shoot at a mediocre quality..
Blocky video, at half the resolution of normal DV, and washed out colours..

But for reviewing a jump, and also being able to jump fulltime without a ton of heavy camera-gear on your head its quite ok..

JC
FlyLikeBrick
I'm an Athlete?

[DSE 3]

The camera you linked to is a pretty poor camera. You can find them on most tradeshow floors for about 50.00 and they're barely worth that much.
MPEG 4 doesn't have to be poor quality if the bitrate is high enough. This camera has an exceptionally low bitrate, so macroblocking and skips are going to be the norm.
On the flip side, Sony and Panasonic have just announced the AVC-HD format camcorders that are technically MP4, and can record to static media. Just got a pre-production model and will report on the quality as soon as I'm allowed. The Sony models allow a lens adaptor on the front.

[LukeH 0]

i thought the two cameras they released are DVD and HDD? neither of which are particularly suited to Skydiving, and probably cost in the region of $1,500

[DSE 3]

You're right about the cost...quality of any sort will cost a lot more than 80.00 Street price on the UX1 is expected in the 1300.00 range.
The HDD cam is one I probably wouldn't jump frequently, although I'll be jumping it for testing as soon as a preproduction model arrives. The UX1 will be jumped as soon as weather leaves us alone. It's DVD, yet I've jumped a DVD cam before without issue. Definitely not ideal, but...
The static storage cams have been announced, but nothing has come up just yet, so I'm not sure when we'll start seeing pre-production on those. However, Panasonic is also making rumblings that they'll be releasing the static sooner than Sony, so maybe we'll see those sooner than later.
BTW, the Sanyo HD1 isn't bad, but it's also not great. Downsampled from 720p to widescreen SD, looks very impressive for the size/cost. I'd like to jump it more, just haven't had the opportunity.

[bob.dino 0]

Do you know if Panasonic will be releasing an AVCHD camcorder before the end of 2006? Flash/HDD/DVD?

[DSE 3]

I could tell you, but then I'd have to kill you.
Panasonic is expected to announce an AVCHD camera in the *very* near future according to insiders. Folks that know for sure are under NDA.
Suffice it to say that there are four major video shows coming up, WEVA, IBC, NAB East, and DV Expo, all of which are prime shows for announcements. Caveat tho...they announced the HVX and then took over a year to ship in spite of announced shipping dates.
I kinda don't think Sony is done for the year tho.

[edit]
On the subject (sorta) of new cameras, not sure if anyone/everyone caught the new Canon replacements for the GL series. A bit heavy for the typical tandem, but great for other shooting, such as RW, advertising, etc.
http://www.dvinfo.net/canonxh/articles/xhpressrelease.php
24p isn't terribly useful for skydiving overall, but all other features on them is great.
JVC is expected to have a couple new small HDV offerings as well. NAB East will be interesting, as will WEVA later this month.

[pcalandra 0]

I'm waiting patiently for a Sony HDV cam that records to compact flash! God I hope they don't try to stay with the Memory Stick format.

[DSE 3]

You'll be waiting for the rest of your life.

HDV by definition, HAS to record to tape. That is the entire basis for the format. While they might at some point come out with a 25Mbps camcorder that records to some static storage format, it won't be HDV.

[bob.dino 0]

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HDV by definition, HAS to record to tape. That is the entire basis for the format. While they might at some point come out with a 25Mbps camcorder that records to some static storage format, it won't be HDV.

Isn't the whole idea that AVCHD will replace HDV? I haven't done a huge amount of research into the different encoding algorithms, but I'd be genuinely surprised if you couldn't get AVCHD to look as good as HDV.

[quade 3]

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HDV by definition, HAS to record to tape. That is the entire basis for the format. While they might at some point come out with a 25Mbps camcorder that records to some static storage format, it won't be HDV.

Isn't the whole idea that AVCHD will replace HDV? I haven't done a huge amount of research into the different encoding algorithms, but I'd be genuinely surprised if you couldn't get AVCHD to look as good as HDV.

Hehe . . . it's pretty much the same codec, just different levels of compression.

The HDV level of compression just wouldn't allow much time on current memory cards so tape is preferred for storage density.

Conversly, the AVCHD level of compression will look -very- good first generation, but in order to edit it, it will need to be recompressed and therefore will lose generational quality, so really will be unsuitable for editing.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[DSE 3]

Quade,
I don't want to get into an argument with you, but AVCHD to HDV is a Xaos to a Navigator.
Yes, they're both video codecs, yes, they both carry an HD resolution-compliant stream.

That's by FAR where they end.

You can theoretically get AVC HD to look as good as HDV, just like you can theoretically get HDV to look as good as HDCAM, just as you can theoretically get HDCAM to look as good as HDCAM SR.
I've proven in very high end venues that in the right hands, HDV cannot be visually differentiated from HDCAM. On multiple occasions. AVCHD in the VERY right circumstances, can be made to look very, very good, but getting it to HDCAM level...not a prayer. Not even with some of the most powerful hardware and software tools available.

AVCHD is in no way at all poised to replace HDV.
First, it isn't as robust a color sample.
Second it's MAXIMUM bitrate is 24Mbps and that includes a 7.1 audio stream or two PCM audio streams.
Second, AVC HD has no bit redundancy, which HDV has.
HDV was designed as a low end professional format, just as it's also a high end consumer format.
Yes, it is to HDCAM what DV is to Beta SP. However, differently than DV, the color sample is twice the value at 88% greater resolution. AVC HD is one quarter the color sample at the same resolution.
AVCHD can somewhat be edited, you'll be hearing a lot more about this very soon from leader NLE companies, but for the moment, there is only one app that can natively handle AVCHD without a DI, and it's not terribly efficient. The decode can't currently be managed by hardware, including graphics cards, and you'll likely never see an accelerator for AVCHD like there already are for HDV.

AVC HD compared to HDV first generation on a switcher isn't remotely the same. You also have to take into account that AVC HD is aimed (currently) exclusively at the consumer market. HDV is barely aimed at the consumer market.
AVC HD currently uses lower grade glass or plastic in the lens. It uses significantly less DSP to get the great image. It also isn't a constant bitrate (currently)
I keep saying "currently" because even though consortiums agree on specs, someone inevitably breaks the spec, and there are already rumors of one consortium member moving up the bitrate, but those are just rumors for now. Maybe at NAB East/Post Plus we'll hear something more concrete.

In another thread, someone asked to see skydiving footage shot with HDV. Well....Performance Designs entire demo reel is shot with A1U's, the Wild Weddings episode is done with A1U's and Z1's, Joe Jennings and Ed Dickenson have shot exceptionally beautiful footage with it. I've shot b roll for several broadcast pieces in the air.
On the ground...All of the BTS for King Kong, Miami Vice, Fast and Furious, Charlies Angels, and many others are shot with HDV.
HDV is used as first cam on many Discovery, Food Network, MTV, Nightline, VH1, and other broadcasts. HDNet just recently carried a bunch of my own motoX footage captured on bike and sticks.
In other words, HDV is very much being used in broadcast in spite of the ignorance that seems to surround it. Is HDCAM better? Absolutely, if you're compositing. If not, I challenge anyone (and have done this with people like James Cameron, Bob Redford, Robert Rodriquez, and other directors at Sundance) to tell the difference in a side by side comparison.

I use HDV alongside our 750 virtually every day, and am now using my XDCAM in place of my 750 almost every day, preferring the look of the XDCAM HD over HDCAM. I'm not the only one of this opinion or experience. Many shooters such as Jodi Eldred, Todd Lincoln, Marshall Hicks, Kevin Sweeney all prefer the image over HDCAM.
I'll also combine another comment from another post. Someone made the comment about "true HD" being related to imagers that are 1920 x 1080. Uhh....not even the HDCAM offers this as native resolution. Might as well say that HDCAM, VariCam, LDK series cams aren't "true HD" either, and they're the workhorses used for just about everything broadcast in HD up til recent months. The ATSC spec is very clear on what is HD and what isn't. HDV absolutely meets the spec.
HDV in the pro end is good enough for "West Wing," "24," "House Arrest," "Cathouse," "Monster Garage," "American Chopper," but it's not good enough for skydiving? Yet most skydivers are happy with the image from their 100/109's? Are you serious?

Sorry for the long post and semi-rant, but it chaps my ass to read "opinions" vs real world experience. I might as well start pontificating on swoop techniques (of which I know nothing about) or similar.

I invite any of you to NAB Post Plus in November as my guests, (classes are around 900.00 per day) to sit through some editing sessions with folks like Thelma Schoonmaker, Walter Murch, and/or myself. See what HDV is doing to the film industry along with other low-cost 1080 formats.
If you're in Oz, (bob) you're also invited to be my guest at the HD Power Production Techniques classes from New Magic.

[quade 3]

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AVCHD is in no way at all poised to replace HDV.

NEVER said it was.

Go back and reread what I wrote.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[bob.dino 0]

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Hehe . . . it's pretty much the same codec, just different levels of compression.

HDV is MPEG2 at 19Mbps (720p) or 25Mbps (1080i). Bitrates are video only.
AVCHD is MPEG-4 AVC/H.264 at "up to 18Mbps".

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The HDV level of compression just wouldn't allow much time on current memory cards so tape is preferred for storage density.

The difference between 18Mbps and 25Mbps really isn't all that much.

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Conversly, the AVCHD level of compression will look -very- good first generation, but in order to edit it, it will need to be recompressed and therefore will lose generational quality, so really will be unsuitable for editing.

I don't know enough to comment.

[DSE 3]

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AVCHD is in no way at all poised to replace HDV.

NEVER said it was.

Go back and reread what I wrote.

what you wrote was:

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Hehe . . . it's pretty much the same codec, just different levels of compression.

The HDV level of compression just wouldn't allow much time on current memory cards so tape is preferred for storage density.
.

I should have been more specific in what I quoted, since I was responding to multiple comments.
No, AVC HD is not at all the same codec, compression method, or anything else similar to HDV other than 1080 HDV is 25Mbps and AVC HD *can* go as high as 24Mbps but currently is aimed at 18Mbps including audio. They're both compressed formats, but so are most video formats.

MPEG is a brand, just like Coke, Adidas, or Performance Design. It's not a single form of compression; it's simply a form that the Motion Picture Experts Group approved, developed, and license. It can be packaged in many wrappers, and found in a number of formats.

[quade 3]

Ah . . . I see the issue you're having.

You seem to think that when I say "pretty much" I mean "exactly the same".

I don't.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[DSE 3]

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Ah . . . I see the issue you're having.

You seem to think that when I say "pretty much" I mean "exactly the same".

I don't.

My apologies if I misunderstood. I assumed being accurate was important.
Blue is "pretty much" the same as green then?

[quade 3]

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Blue is "pretty much" the same as green then?

If you were to look at the entire spectrum of electromagnetic waves -- yes.

I did notice you used the terms "blue" and "green" which, in and of themselves, are pretty ambigous but "pretty much" what most people mean when they want to describe the color of the ocean AND sky or grass AND pistachio ice cream.

The terms are not exact. Which, in light of your previous picayune comments, I find hilarious.

Personally I refuse to deal with any lighting or art director or really much any color professional that doesn't specify in RGB, CMYK, Pantone or some other color space coordinate to where there is no confusion.

Innocent, non-professionals . . . I cut them a wide amount of slack . . . both grass and pistachio ice cream are "green". Most simply don't care about that much detail.

Some will care and for those, continue to write to your heart's content. Meanwhile, I will continue to write what -I- think is understandable to the others.

Between the two of us we'll probably cover it.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[DSE 3]

If you need to take differences of "blue" and "green" to a level of 'electromagnetic waves, pistachio ice cream, oceans and the sky' in order to divert focus from the point of the discussion...I don't have an intelligent response.

Congrats, you win on humor, and everyone else is less informed yet probably more entertained for having read the thread thus far.

[PhreeZone 15]

Actually.. i found to to be pretty useful. Keep conversations like this going and a few of us might end up in the broadcast field

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[quade 3]

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. . . in order to divert focus from the point of the discussion...I don't have an intelligent response.

YOU are the one that opened the blue vs green door. Sorry if you didn't like what you found on the other side of it.

You did manage to get one thing right though.

And I am DONE trying to reach out to you.

Have fun.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[DSE 3]

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. . . in order to divert focus from the point of the discussion...I don't have an intelligent response.

YOU are the one that opened the blue vs green door. Sorry if you didn't like what you found on the other side of it.

You did manage to get one thing right though.

And I am DONE trying to reach out to you.

Have fun.

If you're "reaching out to me" then please enlighten us on how the formats cited above are "pretty much the same?" YOU opened that door, but seem to be unwilling to walk thru it for some reason. I'm not the one talking about ice cream.
I'm here to learn, and share what I know, not have topics shifted to ice cream and oceans.
That said, I've always been interested in whatever is behind the green door.

[edit]

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Personally I refuse to deal with any lighting or art director or really much any color professional that doesn't specify in RGB, CMYK, Pantone or some other color space coordinate to where there is no confusion.

So now I'm really perplexed. You "refuse" to discuss lighting or color without specifics, but you can suggest that MP4 and MP2 are "pretty much the same." Isn't that hypocritical?

[cobaltdan 0]

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I'm waiting patiently for a Sony HDV cam that records to compact flash! God I hope they don't try to stay with the Memory Stick format.

its been here for some time...just not sony:

we use the mini dv pro from fast forward video with a high resolution bullet cam.

http://ffv.com/


the unit is about the size of a pack of cards and digitizes analog video directly to two compact flash cards. we use two 4 gig cards. the compression rate is adjustable from better than beta cam quality to mini dv to fischer price... this is the unit that shows like fear factor use for their helmet cams....

one flaw: they're $3k


.

Daniel Preston <><>
atairaerodynamics.com (sport)
atairaerospace.com (military)

[EricTheRed 0]

There's also this http://catalog2.panasonic.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ModelDetail?displayTab=O&storeId=11201&catalogId=13051&itemId=93120&catGroupId=34401&modelNo=AG-HVX200&surfModel=AG-HVX200

Anybody got 6G they can spot me?

illegible usually

[shropshire 0]

Hi.
I've been think of an MPEG-4 camera and recently saw a SANYO xacti C6 clicky being used by a hangglider (fastened to the boom) - the shots looked great and really clear. It's a great looking small camera and may work really well side mounted on my helmet.

Thoughts? Experiences?

.

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome