rhys 0 #1 October 16, 2004 i was suggesting to someone in another thread to dock and spin a tandem for extra fun, many people replied to this suggestion with positive and negative comments! what do you think? i think it adds to the customers expreience, is fun, and looks great on video (and photo's with a wide enough lense) customers have told me it was the best part of the skydive. has anyone had any problems? if so explain how they happened. "When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
StevePhelps 0 #2 October 16, 2004 As with most things in skydiving, it can be "safe" or dangerous depending on who is doing it (like swooping) Safe is not something I would use to describe it, but neither would I describe swooping as "safe". Heck, I wouldn't describe skydiving as "safe" IMHO -- If the TI is okay with it and the student has been briefed -- have fun! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zee 0 #3 October 16, 2004 I'd say I dock and spin the majority of the time. I've never had a TM say "Oh no, that's too dangerous!!" to me, and until that happens I'll continue to do so. I've had lots of very positive feedback from both paying customers and Tandem Masters alike. I don't really see it as much of a safety issue. The way I see it, if you're not good enough to perform a controlled dock on a freakin' tandem, you shouldn't be filming them in the first place. Peace, Z Action©Sports Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
djmarvin 2 #4 October 16, 2004 In my opinion it c an be done safely. Just make sure the TI is ok with it and brief the student to what you are going to do. I would only dock with one hand. (Usually my right hand to their right hand, spinning the tandem paircounterclockwise, this puts less stress on their arm. As a TI I will turn in the direction the camera man goes to help keep the tension light.) I only dock one hand, because I have hada student or two not let go. In that case I can smack their hand with my free hand. They let get the hint real quick. These are my opinions and probably don't mean a thing, not even to me :) DJ Marvin AFF I/E, Coach/E, USPA/UPT Tandem I/E http://www.theratingscenter.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #5 October 16, 2004 I've let video guys dock and spin in the past and it really didn't do much of anything for the video. Out of all the videos he did like that (there were quite a few), I think there was maybe 3 (maybe) customers that liked it. My overall point here and in the other thread is this. Yes it *can* be done safely. Yes you should be able to do that as a video guy. However, do not assume you can do it and do not assume you can do it on every jump. Also, if you're a new video guy do not assume you can do it at all. As a newbie video guy you don't have enough experience to see when the TI is really fighting a student or know student could turn out to be a complete fuck head creating problems later on in the dive. Docking on a student can be dangerous too. Allowing the student to grab you in any fasion is dangerous (like the "handshake" hold). If a video guy is "stuck" to my student because of something like that and I have to suck it down while trying to get the student to let go, guess who's getting their ass kicked? If a video guy does something like that and I have to deploy with him still "hanging on" *shaking head* its not going to be a pleasant and pretty day. The way I look at it is at that point you crossed the line, you seriously endangered my student and myself. Sure you didn't know the student was going to latch on, but you shouldn't have presented the opportunity. Enjoy, sorry for the rant of sorts, at the end of the day it doesn't matter what my opinion is about this issue unless you're my video guy.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zee 0 #6 October 16, 2004 I don't know how many tandems you have under your belt, Dave, so speaking from my own experience, I can only say this; I've done well over 1,000 tandem videos and I can't recall a single time where a student has latched on to me in such manner that it could ever be considered as "dangerous" The student doesn't grab anything - I initiate the dock. I don't let the student put me in a fuckin' head lock, Dave - It's just a hand shake, and as such, it's only a simple matter of letting go. As for it not adding anything to the video or pictures, that's a matter of opinion. Take a quick look at the faces on the students in these pics Shake1, Shake2, Shake3 and tell me that they didn't think it was an extra bonus to shake hands with their video guy in freefall. It's been my experience that it does add a certain level of excitement for the student and to the video. In the end, it all comes down to the Tandem Master; he's the one who sets the guidlines and I won't do anything that makes him feel uncomfortable. I think we've just about beat the shit out this dead horse - anyone else agree? Peace, Z Action©Sports Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #7 October 16, 2004 As of now I've got about 450 tandems, so I am a relative newbie to tandems, but I have a little bit of experience as well. QuoteIt's just a hand shake, and as such, it's only a simple matter of letting go. Students can do odd things, though. I had a student that completely wigged out and froze upon exit. No biggy, except he froze in a really bad and very hard to fly body position. So I leg locked and grabbed his forearms to move him into a proper body position. I couldn't move him. This little scawny tandem student that weighed about 160lbs wouldn't budge. I bench over 300lbs for reps and deadlift over 400lbs for reps, I'm a very strong guy, literally twice this kid's size. I still couldn't move him. My point is students can surprise you and when fear is involved, they can become quite strong and even more surprising. QuoteI think we've just about beat the shit out this dead horse - anyone else agree? Awwww man, and I just and got my good dead horse beat'n stick out of the garage...--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zee 0 #8 October 16, 2004 Yeah, some students freak and do stupid shit - When I see stuff like that I tend to back away very slowly I was filming a guy once who froze like that too - only this guy froze flat - arms and legs straight out. The poor TM was spinning so damned fast I backed off just so I wouldn't get kicked in the head. The TM finally got hold of the dudes hands and pinned them behind his head in the Felony Arrest position, stopped the spin, and dumped. Needless to say, I made no attempt at docking on that one Action©Sports Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jimmytavino 16 #9 October 16, 2004 on the camera person, the TM and yes,, even the student..Fall rate factors should be kept in mind...You do NOT want to sink out,,, or conversely float up and over,,, To do it "spur of the moment" shows inconsideration and lack of communication.... A camera person/ TM are for sure... a TEAM when on a tandem jump together....as AggieDave points out.... They must already be tuned into one another, must communicate with "looks" and other visual cues and need to be on the same page....... This takes time,, practice, and of course,, Hundreds of jumps together wouldn't hurt.....The dive should be discussed prior to boarding,,,( i know i know...) time is tight, it's seems to always be... "hurry hurry hurry"... Well then,,, get together whenEVER you can and "dirt dive" the next tandem(s) that you will make together.... Each member of a tandem team has His/Her own jobs to do,, but they are NOT exclusive to one another,, and there are Many Many times,, when the two MUST be " in sync." for example .. when the airplane rotates,,, and the camera is looking for the student...( the TM must anticipate this "shot" and be sure the student looks to the camera......)..the timing on exit. the coordiantion of the landing.. ( it just kills me when a TM goes and lands off 50 yards away from where the video guy has been standing and waiting,,,, to catch the landing..) ( especially when it is just as easy to land AT the camera ) The camera person can also dock,,, and NOT turn the pair.... I sometimes dock with my altimeter hand,,, and take a good look at that grip (to get an altitude reference for the video,,,) and then go immediately to the students smiling face.... You have to fly well,,,do what your TM Expects you will do,, resist the temptation to "freestyle".. Be sure that YOU have the controlling grip,, and if the student grabs you..... shake them off and back away,,,, grinning..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zee 0 #10 October 16, 2004 Quoteand if the student grabs you..... shake them off and back away,,,, grinning..... Perhaps we should all carry one of Aggie Dave's Dead Horse Beatin' Sticks with us in freefall... just in case Action©Sports Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhys 0 #11 October 16, 2004 *** I think we've just about beat the shit out this dead horse - anyone else agree? Quote nah i wanna hear stories of people being entangled in the drouge. someone said that could happen. can't imagine it myself, although i have only jumped with strongs. i have seen the footage of a racer tandem they go fast and vector has a smaller drouge too. fallrate could be a problem but once again if you can't stay at the same level you shouldn't be doing it! i have jumped with children(7 years old. ah no bullshit there is no age limit for tandem students in new zealand) of 35 kilo's(dunno lb's we brushed them off in the 60's) and i have jumped with 120kg fat f**ks, needless to say i didn't dock with them either! "When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jimmytavino 16 #12 October 17, 2004 [reply I was filming a guy once who froze like that too - only this guy froze flat - arms and legs straight out. The poor TM was spinning so damned fast I backed off just so I wouldn't get kicked in the head. The TM finally got hold of the dudes hands and pinned them behind his head in the Felony Arrest position, stopped the spin, and dumped. Needless to say, I made no attempt at docking on that one hmmmmm I just re read this thread and it is good that most are all on the same page... however.. I also have been on tandem skydives where a spin began.... in each of the cases,, I didn't "make no attempt to dock"... rather I closed on them,,(,we had boo--koo altitude. these problems all started shortly after exit..) and I planted a hand on the side of the TM's leg and helped stop the turns.....A camera person should recognize that part of his/her job is to be an air monitor and lifeguard of sorts,,, should anything unusual occur..At least that's the way I feel... Another jump found me looking at a main deployment bag, bouncing around in the slipstream above the TM... somehow the container opened, perhaps on exit, yet the drouge release 3 ring was still intact...anyway the TM had NO idea what was going on and when I started seeing suspension lines bouncing around,, I swooped him.... waved like I would at opening... then pointed to him with my left arm,, while I simulated a reach to My pilot chute with my right arm... I think I also yelled PULL a couple of times...hahahaha.. we were around 8 grand.. Fact Is... he got the idea, pulled the d release handle and got the bridle up over the D bag,, just in time,,, ( no canopy material had gotten out of the bag,,, yet ) I dunno know if I would have closed on them and tried to pull,, But for sure if a tm is having problems,, I will respond, will help, will succeed........ there have been times when a tm has a bridle wrap around Himself/Herself, or part of the student... for sure I would move in to help..and would do my best to clear it... why??? cause hell,, most of the Tandem Instructors with whom I skydive are close personal friends...and the students who skydive at our dropzone,,, deserve nothing less.. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Billy 0 #13 October 17, 2004 JT I like what you said,, It is a jump by jump thing with lots a variables and common sense needs to be part of the big picture. I do this without wearing a wingsuit tho, and am wondering if you guys that wear wings can still dock or does it cause you to float up??? edit: docking with the left hand to see the alti,, cool! Have to do that one,, thanks Natural Born FlyerZ.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites TALONSKY 0 #14 October 17, 2004 [replyI also have been on tandem skydives where a spin began.... in each of the cases,, I didn't "make no attempt to dock"... rather I closed on them,,(,we had boo--koo altitude. these problems all started shortly after exit..) and I planted a hand on the side of the TM's leg and helped stop the turns.....A camera person should recognize that part of his/her job is to be an air monitor and lifeguard of sorts,,, should anything unusual occur)] IMO As a tandem instructor I would rather not have a camera man get involved with fixing an out of control tandem. Main reason, one option is to pull and if the camera man is flying in it could create a worse situation. I only have 200 tandems but I would be upset if the camera man came in to fix a skydive. If you happen to see something the tm does not you should let them know by somekind of signal .. Kirk Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jimmytavino 16 #12 October 17, 2004 [reply I was filming a guy once who froze like that too - only this guy froze flat - arms and legs straight out. The poor TM was spinning so damned fast I backed off just so I wouldn't get kicked in the head. The TM finally got hold of the dudes hands and pinned them behind his head in the Felony Arrest position, stopped the spin, and dumped. Needless to say, I made no attempt at docking on that one hmmmmm I just re read this thread and it is good that most are all on the same page... however.. I also have been on tandem skydives where a spin began.... in each of the cases,, I didn't "make no attempt to dock"... rather I closed on them,,(,we had boo--koo altitude. these problems all started shortly after exit..) and I planted a hand on the side of the TM's leg and helped stop the turns.....A camera person should recognize that part of his/her job is to be an air monitor and lifeguard of sorts,,, should anything unusual occur..At least that's the way I feel... Another jump found me looking at a main deployment bag, bouncing around in the slipstream above the TM... somehow the container opened, perhaps on exit, yet the drouge release 3 ring was still intact...anyway the TM had NO idea what was going on and when I started seeing suspension lines bouncing around,, I swooped him.... waved like I would at opening... then pointed to him with my left arm,, while I simulated a reach to My pilot chute with my right arm... I think I also yelled PULL a couple of times...hahahaha.. we were around 8 grand.. Fact Is... he got the idea, pulled the d release handle and got the bridle up over the D bag,, just in time,,, ( no canopy material had gotten out of the bag,,, yet ) I dunno know if I would have closed on them and tried to pull,, But for sure if a tm is having problems,, I will respond, will help, will succeed........ there have been times when a tm has a bridle wrap around Himself/Herself, or part of the student... for sure I would move in to help..and would do my best to clear it... why??? cause hell,, most of the Tandem Instructors with whom I skydive are close personal friends...and the students who skydive at our dropzone,,, deserve nothing less.. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Billy 0 #13 October 17, 2004 JT I like what you said,, It is a jump by jump thing with lots a variables and common sense needs to be part of the big picture. I do this without wearing a wingsuit tho, and am wondering if you guys that wear wings can still dock or does it cause you to float up??? edit: docking with the left hand to see the alti,, cool! Have to do that one,, thanks Natural Born FlyerZ.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TALONSKY 0 #14 October 17, 2004 [replyI also have been on tandem skydives where a spin began.... in each of the cases,, I didn't "make no attempt to dock"... rather I closed on them,,(,we had boo--koo altitude. these problems all started shortly after exit..) and I planted a hand on the side of the TM's leg and helped stop the turns.....A camera person should recognize that part of his/her job is to be an air monitor and lifeguard of sorts,,, should anything unusual occur)] IMO As a tandem instructor I would rather not have a camera man get involved with fixing an out of control tandem. Main reason, one option is to pull and if the camera man is flying in it could create a worse situation. I only have 200 tandems but I would be upset if the camera man came in to fix a skydive. If you happen to see something the tm does not you should let them know by somekind of signal .. Kirk Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jimmytavino 16 #15 October 17, 2004 roger that... good point. I'd respect any TM who feels as you do..... no problem... just saying what my natural reaction would be and pointing out the couple of times when it happened,,, and when it went well.. of course each situation is unique.. but some guidelines specific to each dropzone,,, are likely a very very good idea... now as for " fun jumping" with tandems ,, docking etc ...be sure everyone knows what to expect and when to expect it. dirtdive the jump each time... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zee 0 #16 October 17, 2004 I'm not sure that I would interfere with a TM in a spin like that. For starters, if a tandem really gets going in a fast spin and you try to stop it, there's a good chance of someone getting a camera helmet in the face - Not to mention, you don't know what the TM is going to do. For all you know, he could dump without a moments notice. Not a good option no matter how you look it. I have a good friend who pulled for a jumper who was knocked out in freefall - he ended up with a broken finger and a torn rotator cuff. Second, I'm not a TM - I don't know if you are or not Jimmy, just speaking on my own behalf - I've seen TM's do some pretty incredible stuff, and the one thing I can say is that in the emergency situations that I've seen, they've all acted in a very lucid manner and I think it's best to let the TM take care of the problem as he was trained to do. I like Doc Musgrave's video of when he handed the TM a loose handle - but the tandem was by all indications stable - in that situation I would like to think I would do the same thing. The simple fact is that every situation is different - How you react is a matter of training and circumstance. But, as a general rule, I'll let the TM take care of the student - As anyone who knows me will tell you, I have my hands full just taking care of myself Peace, Z Action©Sports Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
flyhy 0 #17 October 19, 2004 I really don't see any problems! I've grabbed hands ever since swooping tandems, it does look good on videos (spinning background in slowmo!) and it's good fun for the people. And docking makes the filming easier cuz you can just hang off the tandem get right underneath them get the faces (esp on vector tandem rigs, bloody drogue attach!) Sure you're not gonna force it, if the situation is not right (freaking passenger, hands too far back, etc.) you just stay clear and do a standard video.. but that's just common sense aye. So what's so dangerous about it??? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bigway 4 #18 October 19, 2004 i always thought it was part of the job to at least shake the tandems hand while in freefall. I guess it could be dangerous...but so could jumping out of a plane strapped to a bloke you dont know with a parachute on his back .Karnage Krew Gear Store . Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydiverton 0 #19 October 19, 2004 NEVER EVER TRY TO INTERFERE WITH A SPINNING TANDEM. There is way to much momentum in the spin. You might need your cypres if you get hit by a leg. Also there is always the possibility of the tandemmaster deciding to open the main to stop the spin ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Using your droque to gain stability is a bad habit, Especially when you are jumping a sport rig Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
flyhy 0 #20 October 21, 2004 yea well it's about docking first and then spinning the tandem. if the spin get's too fast (very unlikely tandems fall like rocks try to interfere as a silly single cameraperson) then just let go and the old cannon ball effect will throw you out in a safe distance to all spinning-tandem's limbs Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #21 October 21, 2004 Do you even have a tandem rating?---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wingnut 0 #22 October 21, 2004 QuoteI do this without wearing a wingsuit tho, and am wondering if you guys that wear wings can still dock or does it cause you to float up??? it's not that difficult for me, but then againi don't fly with huge wings like some people do.. it isn't like wering my freefly suit though either... i'll every now and then give the passanger a hi five while shooting video if they are with it enough (ya know, not zoned out) to actually get thier hand out here...... that's about as far as i go for docking while actually shooting the video that counts.. ______________________________________ "i have no reader's digest version" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydiverton 0 #23 October 21, 2004 Quoteyea well it's about docking first and then spinning the tandem. if the spin get's too fast (very unlikely tandems fall like rocks try to interfere as a silly single cameraperson) then just let go and the old cannon ball effect will throw you out in a safe distance to all spinning-tandem's limbs Agree there is controlled dock and spin (I will not allow you to do it) and the uncontrolled spin due to passenger body position. Do not try to catch such a tandem it's not an AFF-student ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Using your droque to gain stability is a bad habit, Especially when you are jumping a sport rig Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DJL 232 #24 October 21, 2004 Quoteit really didn't do much of anything for the video. I shake in most video jumps. I also swing them around occasionally. The reaction most of the time is the big grin on their face getting even bigger. As for the video, the best affect is gained when there are things in the background such as clouds or a low sun."I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
