Newb packing and rubber bands / stows

[skip 0]

Dho, another naive newb packing question!

So I went out this past weekend and packed for myself a couple times. I’ve got the pro pack fold down pretty well,,,I think. Getting it in the bag was a little tougher, however I am definitely creating my own little tricks and it is becoming easier each time. And my saber even opened fairly nice, a little off heading but I think I’ve identified that problem.

SO I’m at home practicing, and POP I brake a rubber band (a stow band as apposed to a locking stow band, is that the right terminology?). No problem I’ve changed rubber bands with a packer a few times. So I grab my stock and replace the rubber band however my rubber band is smaller then the bands we have been putting on at the DZ. So much so that it was difficult to get it attached, but then easy to make the stow. The stow is significantly tighter then the rest. My thinking is that all the stows should obviously have the same tension on the lines, however for learning sake what effects could having a tighter stow combined with looser stows have on my canopies openings?

Again thanks for anything you have to offer on the subject. I’ve learned a whole shit load about my canopy in the last few weeks, and wow it just keeps coming.

.:skip

[slotperfect 7]

The small "mini" rubber bands are designed for Spectra microline. I have 825lb microline on my canopy, and I use standard size rubber bands for the locking stows (correct terminology BTW), and mini rubber bands for the rest of the stows.

You are correct that all of the line stows should hold the line bight with the same tension. One stow band that is significantly tighter than the others could cause the bag to hang up slightly as that stow pulls out, resulting in a rotation of the bag, which could end up causing line twists.

There have been lots of other threads about choosing stow bands . . . try searching the forums for more.

Arrive Safely

John

[SkySlut 0]

I use the large rubber bands for everything, locking and regular stows. I double stow everything too, including locking stows (recommendation from PD packing seminars) The myth that you should never double stow locking stows is false...the only thing that you shouldnt do is double stow tube stows. By the way, stay away from tube stows. Slotperfect is right though, continuity between bands and tightness of the bite will keep you less likely to get linetwists. I use the same size band, wether its a locking stow or regular stow.

[rredman 0]

Just curious... why "stay away from tube stows"?

This is the first time I have heard this. I had heard not to double them, but to stay away from them..

Thanks,
Ross

[SkySlut 0]

Tubes stoes and "superbands" are supposed to last longer. Think of what the purpose of a linestow is??? Its made to hold the lines in place, right??? Well, it should also be made to break if there is a problem, hence the chances of getting baglock are minimized when using rubber bands that are more likely to break when compared to something that is stronger and last longer. Rubber bands are CHEAP and it really doesnt take too long to replace a rubber band, I would gladly replace all of my rubber bands on every packjob rather than unnecessarily risk (in my opinion) a highspeed mal by being lazy and using a superband or tubestoe.

[Hooknswoop 19]

Quote

The myth that you should never double stow locking stows is false.

I recently had a bag lock on a tandem because thge lines had been double stowed.

I have used tube stows for a long time and have never had a problem with them.

Hook

[SkySlut 0]

I am talking sport rigs. Tandem lines & tandem rubber bands (although they too are designed to break) are a different animal. Different thicknesses.

[Hooknswoop 19]

The main was packed with normal, sport, rubber bands, not he extra wide & thick tandem bands. True, tandems are a different animal, but I have seen a few bag locks on sport rigs from double-stowing too. Some people have double stowed for a long time without a problem too. I just don't see a need to hold the lines that tight and use the smaller rubber bands when I put other people's gear together.

Hook

[SkySlut 0]

I never use the small rubber bands. I only use the large ones. I find that, depending on the type and size of your lines, the small rubber bands dont hold well enough with one stow and they are too tight if you double stow them. The large rubber bands are really nice to double stow them. Not too tight, not too loose with either the locking stows or regular stows.

The Pappa bear said "This stow is too tight."
The Mamma bear said "This stow is too loose."
and the Baby bear said "This stow is juuuuuust right!"

[AggieDave 6]

Moral of this story: Find whats works for you and your gear best, with the understanding of the repercussions of each senerio.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[SkySlut 0]

PD does recommend large rubber bands for sport rigs though. Double stowed.

[Hooknswoop 19]

PD also says Sabres don't open hard.

Hook

[AggieDave 6]

I want you to post me a link to the article where they recommend this.

Here's all I've found in their articles when it talks about line stowes:

Quote

To prevent this from happening, the stows must be held fairly tightly so that they are only released in the proper
order. To check your stows on the ground, it should take between 8 and 12 pounds of force to unstow the lines when pulling the bag across a
smooth surface by the bridle. Use a fish scale on the bridle to check this. Larger, heavier canopies will require more force, as does a canopy
deployed at higher speeds. You can tighten your stows if they are too loose. If you use Tube Stoes, look at the instructions that were included with
them. Follow the instructions labeled "For tighter Tube Stoes”. Rubber bands can be tightened in the same way. Replace Tube Stoes or rubber
bands that appear worn.

http://www.performancedesigns.com/docs/hrdopn.pdf

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[SkySlut 0]

Call PD or talk to Scott Miller. He can be reached at Skydive Deland. You can get his email from PDs site, I believe...if you can find it, PM me and I will give you his email or call him at Delands manifest.

[Samurai136 0]

I've been to several PD Packing/ canopy control seminars, one of them given by Scott and he said there is no need to double wrap locking stows.

Why would you double wrap them? They are the last 2 stows. As long as the stow is 2"-3" and the Mil-spec rubber band is holding, there is no need to double wrap any stow.

I also know of 2 friends who have had to chop Bag-Locks because of double wrapping locking stows. I hope as an AFF instructor you're preparing your students for cutting away bag locks after you tell them to double wrap locking stows.

Ken

"Buttons aren't toys." - Trillian
Ken

[Dolemite 0]

Are you suggesting that skyslut is intentionally misinforming and possibly endangering his students??? Thats kinda aggressive coming from someone who doesnt hold ratings. Just my opinion. I agree that not all instructors know everything, but just an observation.

I double wrap the locking stows with large rubber bands as well...its a myth about that you cant double wrap your locking stows, unless you are using tube stoes. I wouldnt double wrap small rubber bands, but large ones are fine. I have sat in on at least 2 seminars with scott miller and 1 with jon leblanc, both of which mentioned that you can double wrap the locking stows with large rubber bands for most sport canopies, unless you have special lines...dacron or other larger lines.

-Dolemite

"Officially disapproved by the man"

[AggieDave 6]

Alright, here's the dealio.

I called PD today and discussed this very thread. Here's what I learned:

What I posted earlier, IS PD's offical stance, pull force standards. Also, they do NOT recommend to double stow, but they don't recommend not to. Basically they said which ever you do, be within the pull force. Furthermore, I was told NEVER to double stow small rubberbands.

So basically, what I was saying is correct.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[cssriggers 0]

First of all, apologies to the original poster for being so off-topic. Your first response from slotperfect was great, and agrees with what I have always seen/understood - one small, tight (non-locking) stow with all the rest looser will result in a slight hang-up of your main deployment bag, which could result in line twists. Your goal should be good retention of the lines, and even tension and length side to side. In a word, symmetry.

I've always been confused about all the various line stow products & methods controversy. I have double stowed small rubber bands many a time on microline, HMA and Vectran when I am beyond the cascades and a single stow seems too loose. I sometimes triple stow large rubber bands in the same situation. I've scale tested the release forces on all, out of curiosity. Never had a problem, and I pack a lot of mains.

Obviously if you have large rubber bands and small grommets, double-stowing locking stows could be a huge problem, especially with tandems. On a sport rig, it's impossible to make generalizations unless you know grommet size and rubber band width (for instance, our student rigs have four locking stows. Sometimes, depending on the fit of the canopy in the bag, we double stow the outer 2 locking stows. The grommets are large, with thin rubber bands. No problems in thousands of jumps.)

I personally like tube stoes very much, and it is simply untrue that they don't break (actually they usually pull apart at a seam.) They are easier on the packer's hands, last longer, are easier to change (debatably) and the theory is they are less "wear and tear" on lines since they "roll" off. (Not sure how I feel about that - we've never seen rubber band line damage in our loft.)

If you are like me and have heard various positive and negative comments about various stow products and are curious, do what we did. Some rainy day, take a fish scale or force-tester, and TEST them!! First, test the product iteslf until it breaks, then "install" them on a fixed object, just like you would on your dbag, and see how much force it takes to break them.

I was surprised to find that in our (admittedly unscientific) testing, tube stoes came apart either simultaneously or with a little less force than mil-spec rubber bands (20-25 lb.) Some other stows on the market took more than 60 lb. of force to break.

Of course, whether you have mil-spec rubber bands to begin with is another story ...

[AggieDave 6]

Quote

Of course, whether you have mil-spec rubber bands to begin with is another story ...

Would the bands bought from PD be mil-spec rubber bands?

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[cssriggers 0]

Quote

Quote

Of course, whether you have mil-spec rubber bands to begin with is another story ...

Would the bands bought from PD be mil-spec rubber bands?

I don't know - you'd have to ask them I would assume so, but Mr. Sherman got me to wondering about that whole issue a few years ago ...

Alpha Mike Foxtrot,
JHL

[sundevil777 94]

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tube stoes came apart

Was the tube stow "joint" placed in the middle of the knot? I would not have expected the tension to be able to pull apart the tube stow there if properly assembled.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[cssriggers 0]

Quote

Quote

tube stoes came apart

Was the tube stow "joint" placed in the middle of the knot? I would not have expected the tension to be able to pull apart the tube stow there if properly assembled.

Good question!
We tested "installed" tube stoes in each of the three configurations (regular tighter, tightest.) 20 lb. seemed way more than enough force to stretch the stow so that the "joint" was no longer in the knot area around the webbing, and was free to separate if need be. The overlap area in the construction of the stow seemed to allow for this.

Again, our methods were unscientific, but they were enough to convince me that tube stoes are safe enough to recommend them to our customers (we have used them for years.) Enough tension to hold the lines well, but willing to come apart if need be.

But feel free to do your own experiments ...

In my experience, 20-25 lb. is more force than most people expect it to be.

Alpha Mike Foxtrot,
JHL

[imdskydiver 0]

An observation that i have made while re-packing my parachute (pulling it out of the bag by the bridle )was that on single wrapped stows the bag snapped from one stow to the next and on the double wrapped stows the the bag would spin and then snap to the next stow. (3" stows double wrapped with small rubber bands )This maybe a good reason for a canopy spinning up on opening . On the other hand i could be totally wrong !

[f1freak 0]

I have never and will never double wrap any stows....
I have for the most part always used small bands and have bitched at them when they seem to tight....
but i have never had a problem with them, i always change them @ 4 or 5 jumps and they always have treated me right.
Ifyou have the right size canopy for the bag you might have to work at it but you'll get small bands to work (yeah, my 120 is VERY tight in my bag)
I have seen more than 1 chop from double stows and a TON of hard openings from old tubestows...
so i think it is well worth changing my bands every few jumps....

HAVE FUN...
...JUST DONT DIE

[NoShitThereIWas 0]

I used to be a packer for a living and if I were to guesstimate I would say I have packed at least 9,000 or more pack jobs. So far (knock on wood) hehe I said wood I have not packed any mals. I would say that is a pretty decent average.

On that note, everyone has preferences and opinions. Me personally, I hate tube stows AND small rubber bands. I always have and always will use the normal sized rubber bands. I always single stow the first two stows to prevent a baglock and double stow all the rest.

My experience with small rubber bands especially on my own rig which has microlines, is that single stowing the lines causes them to fall out of the stows because the stows aren't tight enough and double stowing them scares me that they are too tight. I find the regular rubber bands have just the right amount of elasticity.

Also as a helpful packing tip, to "save" the amount of rubber bands you go through, instead of pulling them through the grommets sideways where they are the weakest and most probable to wear down and break, pull them through the grommet on the flat thick side for more surface area. When I started packing I went through rubber bands quickly and now I rarely have to replace them

Hope it helps, blue skies.

Roy Bacon: "Elvises, light your fires."

Sting: "Be yourself no matter what they say."