How much can main riser covers hold the freebag in the container?

[sundevil777 93]

I was wondering how much force is required to lift the freebag out of the tray when the main is still there, especially for some rigs with main riser covers that seem to overlap the profile of the reserve tray so much (seems like the Wings and Teardrop containers are especially like this). Probably more significant for the really small containers?

Of course the rigs have been tested-proven that it doesn't matter, but it just makes me go Hmmm...

I like the way my Infinity has a riser cover flap integrated into the reserve side flap - it so effectively does the job without "covering" so much of the reserve, so the main side flaps and upper riser covers only need to "cover" the reserve a little to give bulletproof protection.

Are there other rigs with this design? I haven't kept up with rig designs in the last 7 years.

What do you think?

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[crapflinger2000 1]

Hey, don't make any assumptions that ALL possible container, reserve size and main size combinations have been tested.... a few years back a well known manufacturer (currently making a popular type of rig) had some incidents where people were experiencing towed reserve pilot chutes. This was due to "brickish" containers and total mals... with the main still in the container, the compression on the freebag was sufficient to overcome the drag of the reserve PC...

__________________________________________________
What would Vic Mackey do?

[sundevil777 93]

Do tell more...

This shouldn't be a secret.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[crapflinger2000 1]

Well, I am not going to elaborate too much or name names of manufacturers for the following reason:

More than likely the problem was due to not 100% compliance with the manufacturers instructions... for example, if the reserve container is sized to fit a raven 150 (max), and somebody shoehorns a raven 1 in there... well, who is to blame?

there is generally some leeway in this... some folks can cleanly pack a reserve into a very small space, whereas others couldn't get the same reserve into the same container if their life depended on it... however, those folks cramming in the next size up reserve into a container it was not designed for are technically not following man. instructions and all bets are off....

I think my first reply should have been the conclusion to this reply....

if you stay within manufacturers recomendations for canopy (main AND reserve) / container compatibility, you will most likely be just fine...

if you go even one canopy outside the recommended range on either main or reserve.... bad shit can happen on SOME containers...

PM me if you want for specific incidents I am privy to, but you may not wanna bother, the gear I am thinking about is probably a bit old school...

__________________________________________________
What would Vic Mackey do?

[sundevil777 93]

If it can happen with too large a reserve, then the amount of force required (especially for some rigs?)to overcome a normal configuration may be much more than we might expect.

Anybody have more solid facts or opinion based on experience?

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[mikeat10500 9]

I look at buying a rig just like buying a car.
You can buy a new car with state of the art technology, shiny paint job, etc and get a block away only to have it towed back in because someone
screwed up! If you buy a car with 300,000 miles on
it...it must have served someone well!
My rig uses technology so old that on a progressive
DZ you would not find a rigger willing to pack the
reserve or a DZO willing to risk letting you jump it.
I bought it with 1500+ jumps on the rig and 1 one the reserve. I figured it would work for me!
I have over 500 jumps on it now and 3 on the reserve" 2 with main in place".
Trust comes with time and jumps.
P.S. I not saying new rigs are not safe just less proven.

-----------------------------------
Mike Wheadon B-3715,HEMP#1
Higher Expectations for Modern Parachutists.

[crapflinger2000 1]

what the f' is a bullet container?

Anyway, I think you are right to a degree. There are always teething problems with new designs... however, i think container design has reached a state these days that any reputable manufacturer's gear (note the qualifying "reputable" - there ARE some cheesedicks out there) is good to go...

if you are interested in CREW, you probably are soon gonna be faced with having no choice but jumping "older" gear... some of the newer rigs make no mention of installing or packing rounds in the instructions...

__________________________________________________
What would Vic Mackey do?

[PhreeZone 15]

Then you find those rigs out there that are old and have lots of flaws that were addressed by scrapping the idea and starting over. Older and worn is not always better and the newest is'nt always best either.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[mikeat10500 9]

Quote

Then you find those rigs out there that are old and have lots of flaws that were addressed by scrapping the idea and starting over. Older and worn is not always better and the newest is'nt always best either.

Yes I agree...old does not make it good...but mine
is air worthy so far!
Bullet is like wonderhog sort of...the reserve is lopo
26 on 2 risers , 2 bite diaper, lines stowed in pack tray...ugly deployment possibilities, but I will exit at
a grand any day and show ya how it works!
P.S. when it opens you can hear it from miles away
and I never have to search for free bag!

-----------------------------------
Mike Wheadon B-3715,HEMP#1
Higher Expectations for Modern Parachutists.

[crapflinger2000 1]

dude, i am not a new gear snob in the slightest, and while I would never say, "don't jump a round reserve..."

I WILL say,

I will never jump a sport rig with a two stow diaper...

Bad ju-ju IMHO

__________________________________________________
What would Vic Mackey do?

[wmw999 2,122]

Quote

I will never jump a sport rig with a two stow diaper...

Why? I've jumped both freepacked and diapered, and diapered makes more sense to me. I'll admit I probably won't run out and buy another round reserve based on the answer, but I'm still curious.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[mikeat10500 9]

>I WILL say,

I will never jump a sport rig with a two stow diaper...

I understand completely...my rigger tells me every time he repacks my reserve...mike ya know you need to get some newer gear...but I know it works!!!
P.S. reserves are round...if someone put a square
were you reserve goes than you have 2 mains.

-----------------------------------
Mike Wheadon B-3715,HEMP#1
Higher Expectations for Modern Parachutists.

[mikeat10500 9]

Wendy
I think crapflinger is saying her would prefer a full
diaper ,lines stowed on diaper only and so would I.
Some day I'll upgrade.

-----------------------------------
Mike Wheadon B-3715,HEMP#1
Higher Expectations for Modern Parachutists.

[crapflinger2000 1]

correct-a-mundo

round with full stow diaper good....

two stow diaper bad....

__________________________________________________
What would Vic Mackey do?

[mikeat10500 9]

Quote

correct-a-mundo

round with full stow diaper good....

two stow diaper bad....

me bad too! How do we feel about hand deploy belly wart w/no pc?

-----------------------------------
Mike Wheadon B-3715,HEMP#1
Higher Expectations for Modern Parachutists.

[riggerrob 558]

What's wrong with two-stow diapers?
They are a huge improvement on no diaper.

[skydiverek 55]

Quote

people were experiencing towed reserve pilot chutes.

Now, that SUCKS! Probably Racer is the 'best' container when it comes to not covering reserve flaps (especially Racer Elite).

[mikeat10500 9]

Quote

What's wrong with two-stow diapers?
They are a huge improvement on no diaper.

I'll say! but I'm not crazy about deploying from pack tray stows " can catch on reserve flaps, etc " or
how the diaper is locked closed with 1 line group"
uneven riser loading. "of course you know this stuff"
I'm no rigger, nor do I have your experience so correct me were you see fit.
But like I said...it always works for me!
P.S. Rob and Penny say hi" or something of that nature".

...mike

-----------------------------------
Mike Wheadon B-3715,HEMP#1
Higher Expectations for Modern Parachutists.

[riggermick 6]

Quote

If it can happen with too large a reserve, then the amount of force required (especially for some rigs?)to overcome a normal configuration may be much more than we might expect.

Anybody have more solid facts or opinion based on experience?

Riser covers.

Generally speaking the more bulky a pack job, the less likely the riser covers will stay closed even during normal use. Free bags with a triangular yoke emanating from the top of the bag to the bridle are less likely to hesitate in a closed riser cover situation (main total) than ones that the 2" bridle terminates directly at the top of the bag. This arrangement forms a "tee" junction with the bag top. Under extreme conditions it might and I say might, hesitate momentarily as the upper corners of the bag are still trapped under the reserve side flap/ riser covers. The triangular shaped yoke has a tendency to pull the upper corners of the free bag to the center of the container as the bridle comes under tension thus allowing the bag to leave the container unimpeded by the reserve side flaps/ riser covers.

Pilot chutes.

A few years ago some containers were designed for a narrow fit (for narrow people). Manufactures found out that not everything remained equal with this type of design, especially the reserve pilot chute. Some older style internal spring loaded pilot chutes had hard plastic tops covered with parapack. Due to narrow container/ pilot chute geometry the edge of the plastic top of the pilot chute could and sometimes did catch the reserve side flap stiffener edges stopping the pilot chute in it's tracks IE: a total. Elbows came in handy here to deploy the reserve. After several incidents of this type manufacturers started padding the tops of the reserve pilot chutes to smooth out any hard fixed edges, also better stiffener plastic covering helped eliminate the condition.

Hope this clears it up for you.

Mick.

[DJL 232]

Quote

if you are interested in CREW, you probably are soon gonna be faced with having no choice but jumping "older" gear... some of the newer rigs make no mention of installing or packing rounds in the instructions...

The "no choice" part of this isn't true. There's no reason someone getting into CRW shouldn't just hook their CRW canopy to their existing rig.

"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

[PhreeZone 15]

I would'nt want to be jumping a round while on CRW jumps since the spot is so deep. His choices are get a square reserve and a new container or get an older container and keep the round.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[hookitt 0]

Quote

What's wrong with two-stow diapers?
They are a huge improvement on no diaper.

Just an observation... huge improvement does not equal good. This goes for many things Not just outdated equipment.
-

My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

[crapflinger2000 1]

The "no choice" part of this isn't true. There's no reason someone getting into CRW shouldn't just hook their CRW canopy to their existing rig.

[mikeat10500 9]

Quote

what the f' is a bullet container?

Check out this site...and the company hist.
It's cool and Canadian

http://www.agt.net/public/flyhigh/

-----------------------------------
Mike Wheadon B-3715,HEMP#1
Higher Expectations for Modern Parachutists.

• Quote

[riggerrob 558]

P.S. Rob and Penny say hi" or something of that nature".

Hi Rob
Hi Penny
Sorry you could not make it out to CSPA's AGM last weekend in Pitt Meadows. We had a wet snowstorm to welcome all the Easterners.