Knee width

[Kat1221 0]

I am a small girl, and do mostly RW, so I wear 14 lbs of lead usually. This puts me at a pretty average fall rate. Last weekend I was talking to a very experienced RW guy and he said that 14 lbs is way too much, and that my fall rate was probably slow because my knees are too far apart. He said that they should be no more than shoulder width apart. This makes a lot of sense, but I've never heard it before.
I'm just wondering how common this is and if your legs are supposed to be shoulder width apart, why are they wider on creepers?

[riggerrob 558]

Yes, I see this problem all the time with junior jumpers. Guys are especially bad at flying with their knees too wide.
The problem is that when your knees get too wide, you can no longer arch through your hips (i.e. stretch out hip flexor muscles). This wide knee position results in a de-arched, knees low position that slows your fall rate.
A good coach will tell you to jump with less weight, while compensating with plenty of stretching exercises that will help you arch more through your hips.

[Kat1221 0]

I'm definitely not flying de-arched, and my knees aren't low. I have video of several jumps, and my knees aren't really wide or low, but definitely a bit wider than shoulder width. I have jumped with less weight, and I can keep up, but I loose a lot of mobility in that position.
My question is, will bringing my knees together a bit more make enough difference to loose a few pounds of lead, and if the ideal width is less than shoulder width apart, why are they further apart on creepers?

[rehmwa 2]

Unlike Bob, I've noticed this more on women than guys - guys may do this later as they move to this to slow down unconsciously. But for new people, very common in women.

Wide knees can force a little hip/pelvis cupping. It's less of a dearch and just more of a cupping. You won't feel or notice it if you don't know what to look for.

Best way to find out is to try.

Really exagerate a few jumps and try to fly with your thighs and knees almost touching/rubbing/sliding/etc. You can still manuver fine and turns, etc are doable. (I do this also for skiing to practice keeping my knees together....) For RW, I try to consciously target leg turns to try to make sure my inner grippers rub past each other. This has brought my legs together much better. I just wish I had more tunnel time to keep working this exageration.

It will help with your fall rate range. It will help you on center point turns.

Are you flying mantis? That also can provide more range on both fast and slow ends.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Cookie 0]

Tell Jonny Eagle that he flies with he knee's to wide apart they are definetly wider than his shoulders, He is a good example of what ever it takes to move fast.
I think a wide stance is good. You are definetly more solid and have a good grip if you know what I mean. I do agree that this position is also prone to catching air if you knee's are down. A to big of an arch can restrict you movement when trying to super transition, This will create popping as you modify your arch to move.
I know wearing a lot of lead sucks, but if your tearing it up in the sky whilst remaining on level, I would hang in there. Also those lead weight belts are great for getting on and off and they can go over the top of you suit.

Rip it a new sky hole
Cookie

[rehmwa 2]

Jason - Have you heard of the 4-way team "Whoosh"? Clare is a good friend and former teammate..... I'm not sure if they are out of Toogoolawah or another DZ.

(Yeah, I know, it's a lot like you asking me if I know "Gary" from Florida, but I'll take a shot since I understand Whoosh is doing good on the Oz skydiving circuit....)

I find wide knees makes it very hard to brake at the end of a move - harder to dig the knee if you know what I mean. It's a hard habit to break for sure, I had a pretty wide stance and enjoyed the leverage, but still 'swirled' out a bit every time I tried to brake. It took tunnel coaching for someone to identify it for me. That said, my point man has ridiculously wide knees while flying and he's awesome regardless, almost too dynamic.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Kat1221 0]

I'm not complaining about wearing lead - at my weight under a 150 I need all the help in the wingloading I can get! And without it, I do pop up every time I move, which makes any RW really frustrating.
I'm not cupping, and haven't had any problems with my body positioning at all, I was just wondering how much of a difference it makes. My knees aren't very wide as it is, but I'll go out and play around with having them closer on the next couple of jumps to see if it makes a difference. Thanks for all the replies!

[Cookie 0]

Yeah I have met Clare, I think she is hanging out in Sydney. Team Whoosh are doing some go shit also.

You cant beat tunnel coaching either to iron out body position stuff. I had a stint in Deland in 1999 with a team. Ended up with 6 hours of Tunnel time and 140 jumps for the 3 weeks we were there. Felt very current when we left.
Keep at it Katie, one day while your going at it your problem will no longer be there. Then you'll be asking about smooth vertical transistions.

Cookie
Capture the Blue Room Experience!

[rehmwa 2]

Quote

Yeah I have met Clare, I think she is hanging out in Sydney. Team Whoosh are doing some go shit also.

Yup - she sent me a note on a 19 they scored in competition. pretty cool. I'll have to remember that phrase "doing some go shit"

"Whoosh" is a good story. 3 years ago Clare was jumping with me or our first 4-way team and we were getting training at a regional meet from Shannon Pilcher. (Shannon is the best)

We were on creepers working the dive and Shannon's giving us good info as always. He stops and asks, "so what's different here than in the air?". We think he was looking for an answer like "nothing, we should be visualizing this as actually being in the dive". Or something like that.

Instead I answered "The big Whooshing noise?"

We cracked up and apparently Clare brought that story with her back to Oz.

I'm pretty thrilled that she's found a great team to work with. I'm hoping they can be national contenders.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[ltdiver 3]

Quote

The problem is that when your knees get too wide, you can no longer arch through your hips (i.e. stretch out hip flexor muscles).

This information is correct. However, it was interesting to me, when reviewing film from a Perris event (Battle of the Sexes on February 14) that the two very highly experienced 4-way competitors, Nina Kubler from the Swiss team and Jacquelen O'Brien from the U.S. Women's 4-way team had their knees wider than all the rest!

Check out this picture from my web page.

Nina is the one black on black to her left is Jaquelen in the blue with red rig.

Makes one wonder what else they've done to keep their arch, yet keep their legs wide and powerful.

Here is a picture of Synchronicity and the Swiss Team, Endeavor

ltdiver

Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon

[Luv2Fall 0]

Just curious.........for a fast faller like me, would widening the knees not be a bad idea?

[Ron 7]

I teach knees to be about shoulder distance apart...Or less.

Smaller moves faster.

With your knees in close you can arch better.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[wilmshurst 0]

Yeah, from having seen Airspeed in the tunnel and having just checked out some of the photos on their website, it is fair to say that some of the team members definitely fly with their knees wider apart than their shoulders. This position would seem to produce more lateral stability and stillness.

Also, there is more than one way to stop forward movement - 'digging in' the legs is just one option.

Hey Cookie, your profile says that you jump at Toogoolawah. I plan to spend a few weeks there later this year - would be nice to 'know' someone. Are you a Broncos fan??

The only thing worse than a cold toilet seat is a warm toilet seat.

[Cookie 0]

A big Bronco's fan.
I've been hanging out at Toogoolawah since 1991.
Very cool place and people.
Drop me a email at [email protected] and let me know when your coming so I can hook you up with the locals.
I'll diffinetly be at the Equinox boogie in October and next week all the Aussie chick are doing some bigway RW and freefly record stuff.
Toogoolawah has it all, kangaross,koala's,3xcessna caravan's and a great fun vibe.
See you there.

Cookie

[karlm 0]

Wide knees are good for stability but will slow you down a bit. I agree with most of the posts here, keep them shoulder width apart.

You should never jump with more than 10% of your body weight in weights. (well thats my opinion).

Another suggestion is to fly elbows down, while in the mantis position, rotate your elbows so your forearms face up, this will increase our fall rate, but not ability to pick-up grips etc.

I have used this technique on the"bigger guys" dives and it works well, I also get my lighter students to do so while on coaching dive.

And as said above a good hour stretch in the morning before jumping is essential to good body movement and flexibility, no matter how fast or slow you fall.

Hope that helps a bit.

Better never to have met you in my dream than to wake and reach for hands that are not there.

[rehmwa 2]

Quote

Also, there is more than one way to stop forward movement - 'digging in' the legs is just one option.

I meant more digging a knee (dropping a knee) to stop turns more than translational moves. If I'm spread out too much, it's much harder to drop a knee straight down. My stops are much cleaner now. Still learning, still improving - tunnel in April...

Edit for the original poster - Karl's note is a good one - I have our 'super light weights' actually pull their forearms completely under their torsos for fall rate boost - think about grabbing your breasts while pulling back the shoulders (most skydivers do anyway, helps to practice it a ton on the ground in front of lonely freeflying males - just kidding, it really does work). It really has surprised some of our slow falling jumpers how dramatic the fall rate response is - but it's a big move and takes your hands out of play, so best for getting down quickly, not for taking grips.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Ron 7]

Quote

Yeah, from having seen Airspeed in the tunnel and having just checked out some of the photos on their website, it is fair to say that some of the team members definitely fly with their knees wider apart than their shoulders.

Yes, and some fly narrow. It is a personal choice how you fly. I teach and fly narrow, and have had long discussions on this with John Hoover and members of Majik. Like I said personal choice.

Quote

This position would seem to produce more lateral stability and stillness

Yes wider is better (Ref: Pontiac GrandAM commercials). And I do think if your goal is to be still and "stable", wider is better. However, if your goal is to move quick a little bit of instablity in your body position is good.

Think about it...You have two Airplanes. One is a Cessna 182 (A very stable plane) and the other is a Pitts Special (Not so stable). Depending on what you want to do depends on what plane you take. If I want to have a nice "cruise" I take the Cessna. If I want to have quick movements I take the Pitts.

Not saying that the Pitts is not stable..But it is not inherently stable....It has to be flown stable. Just like you can take a normal class plane and do Acro with it (Re: Bob Hoover in his Commander). It is much easier to do Acro in the Pitts than a Cessna.

The same is true for the Mantis position...It is not inherently stable...you have to fly it stable. But the instability is what makes it fast.

Stable is for Tandem masters

Of course use what works for you.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Zoter 0]

in reply to a previous post .....is widening the knees a 'good' technique for us big fellas to slow down our fall rate a bit...? or would you recommend something else?
And if you are using wide knees to just keep a slow av fall rate ...whats the best thing to do with your arms and torso at the same time??

Thanks

[rehmwa 2]

Quote

in reply to a previous post .....is widening the knees a 'good' technique for us big fellas to slow down our fall rate a bit...? or would you recommend something else?
And if you are using wide knees to just keep a slow av fall rate ...whats the best thing to do with your arms and torso at the same time??Thanks

You'll find what works best after you get a few more jumps under your belt. Two questions - Have you had tunnel coaching yet? and do you fly mantis? There's a lot of ways to control fall rate, the trick is not to do something that backs you into a corner where manuverability is compromised.

At 73 jumps, you're just starting and likely you fall rate will level out. (It's usually less big guy vs little guy as much as body position and level of relaxation).

Do a search here on mantis (nice pictures in one) and slowing your fall rate. There's plenty of good hints. If that doesn't help, send a note.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Zoter 0]

No I have not had any tunnel time yet.....but have my first trip hopefully in the next few weeks (Paris)

No I dont fly Mantis...

I just seem to have difficulty pushing my thighs down to slow down.....I guess your right...early days and all

[rehmwa 2]

It'll come in time. Keep having fun and get coaching if you can afford it. If not, there's still a lot of things to try: Like I said, lots existing threads on mantis and fall rate control.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Remster 24]

I have found that bringing my knees closer together slowed me down.

I'm 1m88 and 100 kg

Remster

[Cookie 0]

A good analagy with the Cessna and the Pitts. I totally agree, but why not have both.
From a random build where your wide and solid as you transition you get your extremeties in ie get small, make that snappy move and as your applying the brakes start extending your extremities to be solid for that next random build.
A good block description is Sidebuddies x 2 (Sorry I only know the names) I think it's #10
If your are on the sidebody it's hard to to have a mantis posiion as it is a sidebody and that extra room between you and your piece partner is good for cogging the block, so a wide stance etc is needed aka Solid!
When you key with your opposite I firstly get small so I can turn faster ie arms in/legs closed slightly dearched.
On the close I'm getting big, this helps slow the turn and aids in a good sidebody random build.

I must say this thread has been great for outlining the many ways people go about being a slick/mean fast mother#@*er of a rel worker. Bring it on!!

Cookie
RUN IT!!!!

[Ron 7]

Quote

A good analagy with the Cessna and the Pitts. I totally agree, but why not have both.
From a random build where your wide and solid as you transition you get your extremeties in ie get small, make that snappy move and as your applying the brakes start extending your extremities to be solid for that next random build.

#1 answer is it is not needed. You can be very stable in the mantis...It is just not naturally stable, it must be actively flown stable...Just like the Pitts must be flown stable. A Pitts will fly MUCH more solidly than a Cessna. But you have to have your hand on the stick. In a Pitts if you roll it upside down, it will stay upside down. A Cessna will roll back over. You pick your aircraft based on what you plan to do with it...You should pick your body position based on what type of skydiving you want to do. All RW I use the manits. Tandems, I use the box, a BIG box.

The other good reason not to bounce from one position to another is this...Fall rate. Changing from mantis to box will change your fall rate. 4 people changing fall rate will quickly become a pain in the butt.

Third reason (And the last one I will send out this morning) You can't take the time to change from box in a random to mantis to make a move. My last comp we did a 15.4 avg. Thats around 2.2 seconds per point. Avg random speed for some jumps was 1.1 seconds per transition. You can see round two here http://www.4way.us/NSL/TVFSLTeiwaz.WMV .We did a 19 on that one. Thats 1.8 seconds per point. I think block 4 was taking us 2.3 seconds? (I don't have my stopwatch, and the video is kinda choppy). So our random speed had to be around 1.4 or so per point. Thats not enough time to change from a box to a mantis and back.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[rehmwa 2]

Sidebuddies (Buds) = Block 7. This is likely my favorite block (although being in the tail piece of diamond bunyip is fun, although I like 1 (SF-OS) and 22 (T-ChiT) a lot.

Turning the bit fully in Mantis will be quicker for you. Particularly if you think about a clean stop which Mantis gives. The stop in Mantis is a definitive braking move. The stop in Box Man is a stability stop and can't be as crisp. (analogy is stopping at the bottom of bowl - Mantis, you accelerate down the hill and hit the brakes - boxman, you accelerate down the hill and then put the car in neutral and wait for it to wash back and forth for a second - one and you also let go of the steering wheel and only correct after you go off onto the shoulder.) But I don't have any opinions here....

For us it's about sequencing the move (particularly for the 2 with the grips) and clean starts and stops. When I have the grips (depending on the draw we might spin the molars instead of align like a zig zag - I have grips when we are molar) - I break and turn a bit, I coast until my point gets his turn started and then bring my legs through his side body (the far side from the one he had) - kick it around and then roll into his finish to pick up grips. It looks like a single move, but it's really three distinct steps and when it's fast, it's really cool - and it can't be done if you go wide everytime you aren't "snapping". Cogging like that is a gas.

When I'm the head of the thing (I'm OC), I just try to anticipate the release and get my turn started clean so the point doesn't have to hesitate (I actually try to chase his armpit through with my leading knee), then as I finish my turn I try to synch with his sidebody so when I close I only have to worry about presenting my grips and cross referencing the IC. No presentation necessary if the tail cogs it nice.

Edit: That said, I've only been doing this for 3 years and have just begun to get coaching, so take that with a grain of salt. But I completely disagree that Buds can't be fully built and run in the Mantis - It's perfect proportioned in mantis and the legs need to be narrow so the spins don't bump each other. Sounds to me like you have a good mix anyway.... Oh, and I've done it both ways and discover that when we aren't in synch, a little bump in boxman knocks me a lot farther of center than a little bump in mantis, but I've also gotten better so that might be me rather than the body position....

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants