Question to experienced 4-way folks.

[Mad47 0]

I am trying to design a training plan for a new 4-way team that will be formed by people with 400-500 jumps (mostly RW) and very limited previous 4-way experience. After getting some advice from several experienced 4-way techs I designed a draw for 200 training jumps, however, I am still not sure what would be the most efficient strategy to practice the exits. Obviously with training 200 jumps we will be able to take each exit only 6 times during the whole season (16 randoms + 16 blocks for Intermediate division - 200/32~6). Intuition tells that we should probably start from the easiest (B, E, for example) and then progress to more difficult random and block exits. However I am not sure how we should distribute the exits throughout the whole training schedule. Any input from experienced 4-way folks will be appreciated.

Thanks.

[Samurai136 0]

I would try to focus more on training the blocks. Blocks will challenge your team's flying skills. If you spend your first 16-32 jumps doing a block every skydive you'll find which are the hardest for your team and you'll know which to focus on.

You may also be suprised how much the team can learn in one jump when you focus on one block for the entire skydive. Randoms, by comparisson, are easy to build. Use a coach or get a copy of Airspeed's Mindmaps 2003 CD-rom to figure out the engineering of the exits and turning blocks.

Ken

"Buttons aren't toys." - Trillian
Ken

[Mad47 0]

Thaks for the input.

Look at this if you have time
http://4way.org/cgi-bin/board/ikonboard.cgi?s=3fb02eac096affff;act=ST;f=4;t=120

[blazetailman 0]

My recommendation is more time on the randoms. Between every point is a radom move. Whether bolck to block or block to random its a on grip off grip stituation.

You are able to make up more time there. My coach joey jones taught us this and it makes a difference. You'll have time to practivce the blocks.

while traiing on Blaze (from Nor Cal 2000-2001) we did traing jumps all randoms, then later trained b2 blocks swapping the exits. Each traing jump was reapeated with a different exit from the dive flow. Worked good.

Depending on budget for you guys, a good coach and tunnel time will vastly improve your flying skills. The sooner you get one or each the more skills and knowledge you'll have for the season.

www.canopyflightcenter.com
www.skydivesac.com
www.guanofreefly.com

[Mad47 0]

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My recommendation is more time on the randoms.

Thanks!
That's exactly the plan and that's why I posted the link for Ron's article at www.4-way.org. The only thing I am still trying to figure out is how to distribute/practice the exits. In preliminary plan I classified the exits based on degree of difficulty planning to go through all of them from easiest to the hardest and then to concentrate on hardest. We will for sure work with coach and try to get at least one tunnel camp.

[quade 3]

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Intuition tells that we should probably start from the easiest (B, E, for example) and then progress to more difficult random and block exits.

For a first year and inexperienced team I think you've got the right idea. Considering that you're only going to do 200 or so actual jumps, you might want to consider designing your plan so that you only do some of the actual exits and then do transitions to the first scoring points rather than taking out all 32 of the intermediate exits. Obviously, this would need to be discussed with your team, but the time saved in nailing an "easy" exit and transitioning would need to be weighed against the risk and loss of time funneling a "harder" exit.

I've heard of first year teams doing as few as three different exits and transitioning everything else from those three solid exits.

Anyway, just a thought. Obviously you won't get the experience of learning all 32 exits, but when you only get to do them a total of 6 times over the course of the season, are you really learning them anyway?

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[Mad47 0]

Quote

I've heard of first year teams doing as few as three different exits and transitioning everything else from those three solid exits.

I have heard that too We should probably consider taking E instead of most difficult exits. On the other hand, I think we should go through them all in order to determine what works fine and what will most likely create a problem. Apparently there must be some compromise between very conservative plan to only take the easiest and very risky plan to try to nail them all. I think the correct ratio can only be determined by experiment.

[blazetailman 0]

And don't underestimate yourselves. just because its difficult for one team might be a snap for your team. And that's where a good coach comes in.

www.canopyflightcenter.com
www.skydivesac.com
www.guanofreefly.com

[Ron 7]

Quote

Thaks for the input.

Look at this if you have time
Clicky

I wrote that.

A team needs to spend its first jumps working out fallrates (which is much easier with randoms you can focus on this, and not turning your partner), building communication, getting comfertable with each other in freefall, and learning the randoms.

My first real team "Frost 98" we did 50 random and random block jumps before we did any piece work. We only did 120 total jumps.

My second team "Frost 02" we did only 70 block only jumps and never jumped a single random except competitions...However we did about 10 hrs of tunnel which was all random and random blocks.

Which dive do you think is harder to remember:

1. A 5 point random dive
2. A 3 point block dive

The randoms are harder to remeber, there are more points, and it is faster.

Yes, the second dive has 6 points, but not really. Its 3 points. Walk up to any 4 way person and say "Zig-Zag", and they will think "Marque". In fact I just use numbers and letters. The whole block is one move from build to break for me.

For your exit question...

You will not do all the exits 6 times. Some of them you will not need to do that many, and some you will exit for other formations. (EX. Meeker is a meeker, donut, Snow-offset, Buddies and can be Zig-zag- Marque.) Jump all the exits and time the exit to break times.

You will have:

1. Exits that funnel.
2. Exits that take a long time.
3. Passable exits.

Just like I wrote about the blocks the same thing applies here. Start working on the funnels till they work. Then spend your time working on the long exit to break blocks. Still jump your good exits so you don't loose them, but you may only do them a few times. In 2002 Frost only launched Open accordian twice.

Hope this helps.

Randoms win meets.

Edit to add: Majic is putting out a DVD. As I type this it is on the way to be burned. It was made by Brian Johnson and made with Majic. It has every exit and block move and is very well laid out. Majics continuity is simpler to copy than Airspeeds (Airspeed at times switches piece partners ect). I am waiting my copy to review, but I have seen the test versions and it looks like it will be a great training aid. It also has the Nationals rounds, and a bunch of training jumps on it.

Ron Hill
Frost 98- 12.6
Frost 02- 14.9
ZHills 03- 16.6

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[rehmwa 2]

I've just taken a group through at your level twice in the last 3 years. I group blocks and random moves into flavors as learning some moves will give you practice in the feel of others, so why do both if you are looking to learn all the moves??

But with the real firepower here already commenting, I got nothing more substantial to add except refinement.

I suspect we'll see some well defined input from portugal here soon too.
I agree with Ron's plan and my written plan is similar in goals but needs to highlight even more randoms. It helps to here these guys validating some of my thoughts since I've only been doing 4w for a couple years.

Also, sometimes 2 way drills are more effective when working individual issues. (i.e., the tail needs to sideslide practice, the OC needs to turn crisp and sometimes big, etc.) It doesn't hurt to pair off sometimes.

One thing to consider is mixing up transitions from long formations to round formations, long to long, round to round. These random moves can have a different flavor particularly if you guys don't grip cheat well. Intentionally practice these flavors will give you more insight into each type of move.

Oh - tunnel camps, 4 way camps, coaches. Of course.

The Golden Knights always have a current launch and block video, too.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[harryskydives 0]

I like Ron's advice. Are you guys doing the Sky league meets? Are you jumping right into the AA or AAA class, or starting at Rec or single A? That will define a lot of you options. My first team practiced a meeker exit and mostly randoms for our first meet. They did not have separate draws. We got coaching at the meet and did better than some more experienced teams, because we guaranteed our exit. Good luck forming your team, you might read the airspeed article about forming a team.

Don't run out of altitude and experience at the same time...

[Mad47 0]

Thanks again to everybody for the help.

Ron:
The preliminary plan I created was pretty much based on what I learned at 4-way.org (including your article
Rehmwa:
We will definitely use your advice to mix up transitions from long formations to round formations.

Harryskydives:
If everything works out as plannned, we will compete at Texas Skydiving league and Nationals 4-way Intermediate.

P.S.: Cool pic by the way.

[Ron 7]

If you need more just ask.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[markD16767 0]

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If everything works out as plannned, we will compete at Texas Skydiving league and Nationals 4-way Intermediate.

Cool! Who's on the team? Do you have a name yet?

Mark

[mjasantos 0]

Quote

(...) I suspect we'll see some well defined input from portugal here soon too.

Hi!

Robert De Niro, in "Taxi Driver", would say: "Are you talking to me"

OK... this is a complex issue and it is not easy to give an advice without knowing the team, its goals and its restrictions.

I got an e-mail from Igor (Italy) also telling me to be waiting for a post of mine about this subject... so here I am.

I've already sent to Anton, Matrix FS training plan, as I think their goals and number of planned jumps for the season are alike for what we had planned last year, before the team reached an end. So, I e-mailed him our complete team spreadsheet, including calendar, jumps plan, training schedule, individual goals for each jump, expenses worksheet, team meetings attended, ground training (including crreping, technical sessions with video and seminars), etc.. I think is a good tool to start an intermediate team, which I did it with all the precious help of Jack Jefferies and Dan BC, through several contacts we have held along the season, where they acted as "AWESOME online coaches".

I agree with most of the things told here, except for that mentioning to focus the training on the block techniques... as Ron and any other FS expert coach would say, a good Random Work is the core and foundation of all the Formation Skydiving... just remember this well known sentence: "shitty random, shitty block".

What could I add and share with the forum?

Well... at any of the training stages, we always did the same jump twice, allowing individual and team improvements after the video debriefing. Because we were packing ourselves and the budget was a restriction, we planned always por 6 jumps a day, 2 weekends a month (would be about 24 jumps a month).

What we did at Matrix FS, following JJ advice, was at first to concentrate on Basic Body Flight drills, where we did about 20 jumps.

At this stage we did things like:

- Level variations, 2 on 2;
- 90º & 180º turns, 2 on 2 (no grips);
- 90º & 180º turns;
- 360º turns to the right, 2 on 2;
- 360º turns to the left, 2 on 2;
- Bipoles built clockwise, 2 on 2;
- Bipoles built counter-clockwise, 2 on 2;
- Side slides, 2 on 2;
- Super-positioning, 2 on 2.

Then, before going into any block, we entered a Random Work training phase... about 40 jumps (we had 2 competitions somewhere in the middle of this phase, but we were focused on our Random Work). It shoudl have been the double of this number of jumps, but the DZ schedule changed, so we had to adjust our initial plans.

At his phase we started with 3 random jumps, then 4 random jumps, 5 random jumps and if we had the time we would have done 6 random jumps, to work memory (from the easiest to the most difficult).

Just as an example we did jumps like:

E - F - Q
B - O - J
H - C - F
A - E - D
B - J - C - G
P - Q - M - L
N - C - K - D
G - F - A - H
C - M - O - E
F - N - Q - G
J - P - L - K
H - A - D - L - P
K - B - G - J - O
M - A - Q - C - D
L - P - F - N - H
E - G - C - A - M
O - K - B - F - L
Q - H - N - P - G
N - C - K - B - Q
O - E - J - F - H
(...)

This way we went through the several randoms more than once, and practised every exit.

After this phase we entered a Block Technique training phase (should be about 44 jumps... 2 per block)... the ideal would be not having not more than one block per jump (alone or combined with a random - 3 points jump... later 4 points, making 1 block and 2 randoms or 2 blocks good for training combination).

We grouped the blocks according to their type and went along the training with that rational.

The rational according to our continuity plan http://www.mariosantos.com/po/continuity.htm, was this one:

REPEATERS
- Blocks with individual flight only, type 1+1+1+1: 9, 7, 15 and 14;
- Blocks type 2+1+1: 20 and 22;
- Blocks type 3+1: 2 and 4;
- Blocks 2+2 type: 6, 19, 21, 11, 8 and 18.

MIRROR IMAGE
- Block 3+1 type: 17;
- Block 2+2 type: 5 and 1;

NON REPEATERS
- Block 3+1 type: 3
- Block 2+1+1 type: 13
- Blocks 2+2 type: 10, 16 and 12.

After this phase should exist a Competition Preparation phase... jumping one or two 10 rounds draw. This would work as well as a test phase, to see if the team is within its goal average range. The jumps here should be done at 10,000 ft (it's different than jump at 13,000 ft).

The next season, we would have done a mix between Random Work and Block Techniques, combining easier to memorize jumps to work on speed, with most difficult ones to keep brain working and get used with longer sequences avoiding to brain lock. For example 2 random work jumps + 4 block jumps per day... according to the needs, you could go through a day of just Random Work or Block Techniques, to work some worst and most difficult transitions.

We were always very methodic on the ground preparation, going exactly as described here http://www.mariosantos.com/docs/briefing_structure.htm.

We also worked with the visualising (http://www.mariosantos.com/docs/visualizing.htm) and arousal level (http://www.mariosantos.com/docs/your_optimum_arousal_level.htm) concepts.

The debriefing structure was also as this one http://www.mariosantos.com/docs/debriefing_structure.htm but here I have to say that for some of the portuguese mentalities, this was too way advanced... people in general has problems with constructive critics... unless you have 5,000 or 6,000 jumps, which is unless you are a recognized "skygod", and if you are in charge of the coaching (without and outsider coach), it's tricky...

Don’t ever forget the basics: LOOK AT WHERE YOU HAVE TO MOVE AT (remember your move, and repeat it, on the creepers) - MOVE – STOP – LOOK – GRIP – LOOK AT KEY PERSON AND BE PREPARED FOR THE NEXT POINT (ANTICIPATION) – KEY – FLASH – MOVE… the cycle continues... this is paramount... not doing it will not allow your team to progress.

Going FAST is not SLOPPY RUSH (many people don't know the difference)… the secret is going over all these steps but each time (as training improves) with smaller pauses… but the steps are always there and should be observed.

How FAST should you GO? This is a question asked too many times... GO AS FAST AS YOU CAN CONTROL, which means, GO AS FAST AS YOU CAN STOP! Don't throw your move momentum into your teammates... that's why you should STOP, before you GRIP. Even when creeping, stop your moves momentum, before gripping on your teammates!!!

The work on the ground is vital (if you don't do it, the jump will not go as well as it should): memorize the jump sequence, dirt dive, creeping all those phases (transitions, pauses, eyes closed), exit practice on the mock up after creeping and before boarding… visualizing all the time, with small breaks to avoid brain burning… visualizing as well on the climb up… when you get up to go to the door, check that your arousal level is at your best performance level, smile and think to yourself that it will be a great jump (think POSITIVE), you WILL do it FINE (don’t think about mistakes) and enjoy when you hit the relative wind… have fun but with concentration till you get back to the hangar for the team's debrief... the jumps only finishes after that...

Well, too many more things could be told, but I think this should be enough for now... sorry for being too long on my writing... I get enthusiastic all the time I think about it and remember my past FS experience... I wish I could be in the US: there is too much easier than here, to keep going along with FS teams and with all year round DZ's.

Blue Skies!

-----------------------------
Mario Santos
Portugal

[Ron 7]

Very good advice.

The only thing I would do different is to include the "Random Blocks" (7,9,14,15) in with the random training.

Then for my block training, I would do two block dives and then on the repeat I would exit the other block, unless the first exit was soup.

I had a XL spead sheet that tracked our block times, and gave me a deviation from goal.....I'll see if I can find it.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[mjasantos 0]

Thanks Ron!

"The only thing I would do different is to include the "Random Blocks" (7,9,14,15) in with the random training."

Actually we did something similar, because although these are blocks, while performing the block we have four individual pieces (instead of the usual 2 pieces)... that's why we put them at first.

I forgot to add, that if the training plan has enough jumps for it, we would include as well all those randoms corresponding to the 1st point of every blocks (e.g. Stardian, Monopod, Snowflake, etc.)... there is no interest in training the random of the second point of a block, where the 2nd point is different from the first one (e.g. Off-Set, Turf, Star, etc.).

"Then for my block training, I would do two block dives and then on the repeat I would exit the other block, unless the first exit was soup."

Actually this is how Matrix FS used to do it, just for the repeaters type of blocks. The solution I previously mentioned (2 jumps per block) would be a good one when we have enough jumps in the plan... because we didn't and we had to speed up through our block review, we did it as Ron said, combining 2 similar blocks.

Here's an example:

REPEATERS
9 7
7 9
15 14
14 15
20 22
22 20
2 4
4 2
6 19
19 6
21 11
11 21
8 18
18 8

MIRROR IMAGE (1 block combined with a random)
17 B
17 B
5 J
5 J
1 N
1 N

NON-REPEATERS (1 block combined with a random)
3 P
3 P
13 O
13 O
10 H
10 H
16 E
16 E
12 Q
12 Q

Regarding block times, if you go through our continuity plan linked pages (which included all the randoms and blocks) - http://www.mariosantos.com/uk_us/continuity.htm, you'll be able to find for most of the blocks the information about block times.

Have a look at this example http://www.mariosantos.com/uk_us/blocks_09-15.htm#13 - Hammer - Hammer

Block Times: On the Exit, On the Hill and At Terminal
... and regarding teams level: World-Class Top Teams, Open/Advanced-Class Teams and Intermediate-Class Teams.

Blue Skies!

-----------------------------
Mario Santos
Portugal

[Ron 7]

Quote

"Then for my block training, I would do two block dives and then on the repeat I would exit the other block, unless the first exit was soup."

Actually this is how Matrix FS used to do it, just for the repeaters type of blocks.

I would just use the chart you will make with the last 10 block averages. And then use the deviation from your best and work on them...If they are slot switchers, or mirrors I would not worry about that...You have to train the slot switch anyway.

I have attached a sample of the type of chart we used.

At the top of the chart is the block number in bold.
The next 10 lines are the times of the block from key to key (To include the hold times). When you get to the bottom, just start again at the top.

The yellow is the best single rep you have ever done that block in....The goal can be your best times, or the times of the last team that won that class, or what ever you coach tells you. We had both our best time and deviation , and Airspeeds times and deviation from them.

The deviation lets you see how you compare to your best, and the other group. So if you are really close to your best, but really far from the Goal that block still needs work.

I didn't add the hill blocks on this, I had another 5 jump chart for that, and exit to break times for all the randoms.

But for most teams this is too much. Like I said before you have 3 types of blocks:

1. Soup
2. You have the idea, but are missing the catches, or just not getting the technique right.
3. Blocks you need to speed up.

This is a good tool for 2 and a great tool for 3. But it does not do much for #1.

Enjoy

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Mad47 0]

I feel like I owe a lot of beer to a lot of people

[Jiggs 0]

One thing that I loved about skydiving is that it is always possible to see someone more obsessive than yourself!

Excellent info.

"Don't blame malice for what stupidity can explain."

"In our sleep, pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart and in our despair, against our will comes wisdom" - Aeschylus

[Mad47 0]

I am only beginning to understand what obsession's like. Designed a bunch of random dives yesterday night and then went through them all in my dreams ...

[ZoneRat 0]

Quote

I am only beginning to understand what obsession's like. Designed a bunch of random dives yesterday night and then went through them all in my dreams ...

Oh, great.
My captain's an obsessive freak with a dinner plate for an avatar...

(What the hell have I signed onto here...)



Naw. I'd like to add my thanks to Anton's for all the advice provided for this our first serious attempt at 4-way. (And reinforce the fact that Antone does indeed owe you all a lot of beer. )

“There are more things in Heaven and Earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophies.”

[mjasantos 0]

Quote

... Designed a bunch of random dives yesterday night and then went through them all in my dreams ...

At least your mental training has already started! Cool!

And I bet on that "visualization" the dives were AWESOME, as they should be! Thinking positive is half-way to get it done right!

If in your thoughts you aren't able to see it going right, then it won't happen right! That's why all the visualization training you can do is never too much! But don't over heat your brain... take some pauses, but keep coming back to visualizing... it's like stretching: after a while you'll find out that visualizing it's becoming easier and that day after day, on that imagery you're able to find details that you didn't "see" before... every time gets more accurate and clear... and soon, when jumping, you'll realize that what's happening up there in the skydive has already gone through in your mind prior to the jump.

If for some reason on your visualizing you reach a point where you mistake (or "brain lock") in the "mental skydive", continue from there as if you were really skydiving... if you have a mistake always at the same point or transition in your mental dirt diving, think "STOP" to yourself and take a 30 seconds pause... then before you visualize the all skydive again, go to the point where you were having trouble and repeat it mentally (and in the right way) 3 times... now that you got it right, visualize again the all skydive...

And when you go to the door, don't get worried about brain locks or about forgetting the sequence... that's the moment you are most prepared to... you did all the prep and visualizing... so, you'll do it right (don't think even slightly about mistakes or the possibility that something could go wrong... thinking in advance, at the door things can only go right)!

All you need is a proper climb out as in the mockup (exactly the same places for all those feet and hands in the door... if that don't happens means that you need to train more exits at the mockup... it's for free and it's better than having a funnel just because the team wasn't comfortable to have a good climb out and exit)), smiling all the time, focused on the count but ready to have fun and enjoy the "ride down".

It seems your team folks are as well looking forward to it! Motivation is always GOOD!

Blue Skies!

-----------------------------
Mario Santos
Portugal

[Mad47 0]

Mario,

I have been visualizing on the ground for a while, however I was not really doing it systematically until recently. As always, when you start to learn something it takes time to understand how to learn it right Now I really feel how applying systematic every day visualization and monitoring arousal levels on the way to the altitude improve the actual skydives and help to understand the mechanics of FS. Even my colleagues at work are now used to occasional 360 spins on the office chair

P.S: Thanks again for the file. It helped tremendously to design our own plan (it is now almost completed … took much longer then expected)

[harryskydives 0]

I assume you guy have established a continuity plan. 200 jumps is great for a new team, liveing in Tx that is very do able. But establish your continuity plan so you get comfortable with knowing just what a specific point looks like from your slot.

Don't run out of altitude and experience at the same time...