Recovery Arcs on intermediate canopies.

[DebaucheroRdrgz 0]

Hey there every one. I was hoping that whoever felt like it could give me their opinion on what the recovery arcs were like on the following canopies from shortest to longest:
Stiletto
Nitro
Pilot
Safire2
Sabre2
Cobalt
XFire2
Katana

From the wildly conflicting reviews that I've read that's about what I gather... Please correct me if I'm wrong. Also I know that this has been asked in the past, but which one of the above might be most suited to learning HP landings and why?

[AggieDave 6]

That is an interesting list you have put together.

Short:
Stiletto
Nitro

Slightly longer:
Cobalt
Pilot

Medium:
Cobalt
Sabre2
Safire2

Long:
XFire2
Katana

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which one of the above might be most suited to learning HP landings and why

Depends.

I would recommend that people learn the foundations of swooping on what they are jumping now. The foundation of swooping is not built with a front riser, but with canopy flight in general. You will never be a good swooper or a safe swooper if you are unable to accurately fly a landing pattern. If you don't understand recovery arc and don't have a firm grasp of how your canopy turns and stalls. This is so much more important then buying a "swooping" canopy for someone who is learning and beginning!

So beyond that you can break the canopies down by manufacture to step you up in performance as you progress. For instance, a really good progression would start you off on a Sabre2 until you get enough jumps and experience to get to about 1.7:1 and you're wringing the piss out of that canopy. Then you would move onto a Katana until you get enough experience to be around 1.9:1 and you can swoop the piss out of that canopy. Then you move on to the Velo.

For Icarus a similar progression would have you jumping the Safire2, to the XF2 to the VX.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[AggieDave 6]

Another thing is that I wouldn't put the XF2 and the Katana down as "intermediate" canopies. Those are advanced canopies that take a very experienced canopy pilot!

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[DebaucheroRdrgz 0]

Thanks a lot. That's some interesting input... But now I'm kind of curious to find out something else. Of those canopies listed there are some that seem to be a little more obscure (i.e. nitro and cobalt), and maybe that's for a reason. Could anyone tell me what their experience has been with the openings of the cobalt and the performance of the nitro?

[AggieDave 6]

I've actually jumped everything on that list, including the Nitro and the Cobalt. Although bear in mind that my experience with the canopies will be a little different then others, since I'm a big guy and load up larger canopies.

The Cobalt opened horribly bad. It flew OK, though. Sort of like a slightly quicker Stiletto with a slightly longer recovery arc. Over the last 7-8 years the skydiving community has basically found out that if you jump a good opening and flying Cobalt, keep it, since the quality control is the issue. The manufacture, Atair, has seemingly all but walked away from the sport skydiving industry to focus on military development.

As for the Nitro, it opened ok and reminded me a lot of a cross between a Sabre2 and a Stiletto. It didn't turn as quick as a Stiletto, but it had a Stiletto like recovery arc. All in all it would be a good all around jumper canopy, but I wouldn't count on it to help you transition to modern long recovery arc swooping canopies.

Are you in a location that would give you the opportunity to call up manufactures and get demo canopies? You can listen to 100 different opinions and they will all tell you something different. You can also demo canopies that are appropriate for your skill level and come away with your own opinion.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[CanuckInUSA 0]

I'm not so sure I would put the xFire2 as a long recovery arc. That is unless you want to put the Katana in as an extra long recovery arc. I have competed against a few guys flying Katana's and they dive almost as much as their cross-braced counter parts. I would agree with your list if you created the extra long recovery category and put the Katana in it.

For sure both the xFire2 and Katana are advanced canopies.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[DebaucheroRdrgz 0]

Seems to me like I might enjoy a Sabre2.

Also just for my own curiosity... is the purpose of crossbracing just to make the wing more rigid so that it can be loaded more heavily?

And, what design characteristics make those swoop monster canopies like the velos, jvx's, and xaos' dive so much other than the trim of the line set?

Also what is the purpose of a 21 cell canopy as opposed to a 27? And along that same line of thought, are there any non-crossbraced seven cells that have been used with much success in swooping?

[AggieDave 6]

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I'm not so sure I would put the xFire2 as a long recovery arc. That is unless you want to put the Katana in as an extra long recovery arc.

The Katana 150 I jumped had a similar recovery altitude as the XF2 149 I jumped. It wasn't a HUGE difference, but there was a difference and the Katana was a bit longer. The Katana 170 had a similarly long recovery arc. The Katana 135 I jumped dove a bit longer then the XF2 139. The Katana 120 dove like a dump truck driven off a cliff, but I was over loading it pretty significantly.

For comparison, the 150 was loaded 1.9:1-ish.

I would love to put together a second rig with a Katana 150 in it for every day skydiving. That would be so much fun!

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[CanuckInUSA 0]

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Seems to me like I might enjoy a Sabre2

The Sabre2 would be an excellent canopy for you to be considering now as an intermediate canopy pilot. It is an excellent all-purpose canopy. Please don't be thinking of anything more high performance at this time. Learn on the Sabre2 (or something similar to the Sabre2) ... then once you know the Sabre2 you will know what is good for you next.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[CanuckInUSA 0]

I actually have never jumped the Katana and the Katanas I am referring to were flown by much smaller canopy pilots than yourself. But I was uber impressed with how much these smaller Katanas would dive. It was almost as if they were cross-braced canopies. But without a doubt the Katana is an awesome canopy for the advanced canopy pilot who does not want to be under a cross-braced wing. In fact due to my lack of currency I should sell my JVX and pick up a Katana. How do you feel about flying a JVX 87 Dave? haha ... no I should sell it to someone smaller.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[AggieDave 6]

Well, JVX's like to be loaded up and I would only load it at 3.44 and some change...why not?

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[JohnDeere 0]

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Well, JVX's like to be loaded up and I would only load it at 3.44 and some change...why not?

You could almost be another Bruno!

Nothing opens like a Deere!

You ignorant fool! Checks are for workers!

[DebaucheroRdrgz 0]

I'm also curious to know how a competition cobalt differs from a regular cobalt and how it would fall into a our line up here.

[AggieDave 6]

A comp-cobalt is one that I haven't jumped. Drop IMGR2 a line, he was heavily sponsored by Atair for a long time, he would have a decent amount of experience on one.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[phoenixlpr 0]

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I'm also curious to know how a competition cobalt differs from a regular cobalt and how it would fall into a our line up here.

Triangulated ( H-modded, restricted) nose. That makes the airfoil even more rigid and the recovery even longer than that standard.

I can not compare to anything, because I have not jumped anything else on that wing load.

I think it works fine, it opens OK, flies great and it has a nice flare on WL 2.2+.

[davelepka 4]

Are you really jumping a Stiletto 135 at 140 jumps? If so, who the hell sold you a Stiletto 135 when you had less than 140 jumps?

[BMFin 0]

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Are you really jumping a Stiletto 135 at 140 jumps? If so, who the hell sold you a Stiletto 135 when you had less than 140 jumps?

this is classic

Here we go again...

However, instead of getting my pop corn ready, I think I will find something more constructive to do...

Have fun !

[davelepka 4]

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this is classic

Here we go again...

I'm surprised nobody touched on that point earlier in the thread. The guy is certainly asking some leading questions, and then a peek at his profile, looks like a duck to me.

[DebaucheroRdrgz 0]

"Oh my god look at your profile... I can't believe anyone would allow you the opportunity to look at a high performance canopy with those jump numbers... Ugh, these people are beneath us. I can't even remember the day that I had that many jumps because I have millions now."

The response I just wrote above doesn't look too unlike some of the ones that I've read from you know it alls... but what I wonder is what are you really trying to accomplish with this whole business of being a stuck up dick?

I like parachutes, I like to take risks from time to time. If you like parachutes cool, but if you want me to sit around and stroke your ego because you can afford lots of jumps then take a hike. And for the record, as dangerous as you may think people like me are, I have never had anything other than a nice stand up landing. I can't be too dangerous.

Go knit a sweater somewhere ya big Sally.

[JohanW 0]

See you in Incidents.

I've had my 36 hours of Pain, and I was lucky, not good, enough that it wasn't worse. I was jumping something more forgiving than a Stiletto. I hope you only break a leg and not kill yourself, unlike the friend to whose funeral I went. He was jumping a Stiletto, and he had a lot more jumps than you.

I wish that on *nobody*, not on anyone I know and not on you either, even if I don't know you. And sometimes, like when I still hear the hurt in my twin brother's voice when he, very occasionally, talks about performing CPR on the guy that starred at mentioned funeral, I really wish you would *listen*.

Johan.
I am. I think.

[davelepka 4]

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I like parachutes, I like to take risks from time to time. If you like parachutes cool, but if you want me to sit around and stroke your ego because you can afford lots of jumps then take a hike. And for the record, as dangerous as you may think people like me are, I have never had anything other than a nice stand up landing. I can't be too dangerous.

Go knit a sweater somewhere ya big Sally.

Interesting response.

Good luck out there, Chuck. You're gonna need it.

-sally out-

[ianmdrennan 2]

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"Oh my god look at your profile... I can't believe anyone would allow you the opportunity to look at a high performance canopy with those jump numbers... Ugh, these people are beneath us. I can't even remember the day that I had that many jumps because I have millions now."

The response I just wrote above doesn't look too unlike some of the ones that I've read from you know it alls... but what I wonder is what are you really trying to accomplish with this whole business of being a stuck up dick?

I like parachutes, I like to take risks from time to time. If you like parachutes cool, but if you want me to sit around and stroke your ego because you can afford lots of jumps then take a hike. And for the record, as dangerous as you may think people like me are, I have never had anything other than a nice stand up landing. I can't be too dangerous.

Go knit a sweater somewhere ya big Sally.

Disappointing, but typical, response.

My guess is, based on past experience dealing with attitudes like this, is that the posters are spot on with their assessment.

Note: This is not a comment supporting, or condemning the canopy choice, but rather that attitude that is displayed by the OP.

Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[danielcroft 2]

I was tempted earlier to write a response in this thread thanking the OP for asking a question that I'd been thinking about myself. I didn't because I reminded myself that no one really gives a crap about what I think and just read.

I'm not sure how the OP is going to learn anything if he doesn't respect the people who's advice and opinions are being asked.

You might not agree with their assessment of your canopy choice but that doesn't make them wrong (or right necessarily). I would hope that you've taken a more consultative approach with your canopy progression than you have with your efforts to become a rigger (even if you don't have a lot of options on that front).

[DebaucheroRdrgz 0]

See that's the problem with this website/ forum. No one really gives a crap about what anyone with less than a thousand jumps thinks. If someone asks questions that some skygod thinks are too advanced for him to know then they are chastized for it and ridiculed.

By the way I learn plenty by being inquisitive and devouring information. And I respect the opinions of those who have experience. I also stand up for myself when someone tries to throw off hand comments in the mix in an egotistical manner. But that I guess makes me a little bit of a thorn in some people's asses. People get butt hurt and then do their best to feign disinterest. I don't blame them though. I'd probably do the same to save face.

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I would hope that you've taken a more consultative approach with your canopy progression than you have with your efforts to become a rigger (even if you don't have a lot of options on that front).

BTW What are you talking about?

PS Hope you all get a kick out of my profile now.

And if there are any curious low time jumpers out there that want to learn who happen to read this, don't let arrogant people keep you from asking questions.

[gearless_chris 1]

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I'm also curious to know how a competition cobalt differs from a regular cobalt and how it would fall into a our line up here.

Triangulated ( H-modded, restricted) nose. That makes the airfoil even more rigid and the recovery even longer than that standard.

I can not compare to anything, because I have not jumped anything else on that wing load.

I think it works fine, it opens OK, flies great and it has a nice flare on WL 2.2+.

I believe the lines are longer also, like almost as long as the next size bigger canopy.
To me, my Comp Cobalt 150 dives harder and faster than the Stilleto 150 I jumped (W/L @ 1.8). It also isn't quite as twitchy, but then I had to add 5 inches to the brake lines, so that may have taken some of the twitchiness out of it.
Masterrigger1 (Mel) is also a source for Cobalt info.

"If it wasn't easy stupid people couldn't do it", Duane.

My momma said I could be anything I wanted when I grew up, so I became an a$$hole.