After reading a few of the later posts, I'm seeing a great example of what I was talking about.
There is a chance you may have been jumping gutter gear. Not that it is 'unsafe' but if you were jumping F-111 canopies, and they had been in service for awhile, then you would see reduced performance in the flare department.
You may recall seeing a post or two endorsing a technique called the two-stage flare. What this entails is flaring to about half brakes (chest level) allowing the canopy to fly level for a second, and then completing the flare. Some feel this is easier to manage, as you have two oppertunities to get the timing right, and in some cases they may be right. If you are indeed jumping old F-111 student chutes, then they are sadly mistaken.
The two stage flare does not apply to F-111, and all it would do is pile you into the ground even harder then a poorly timed one-stage flare. F-111 requires a well timed and forceful flare in order to be most effective.
This is why I suggested getting your training on the day of your next jump, when the exact canopy you will be jumping and the conditions you will be jumping it in are known.
I seem to recall you posting about much better landing performance out of a slightly different canopy on one of your jumps. If the DZ you are at has a mix of F-111 and Z-po canopies, then you will see vast differences between the two.
I also seem to recall you mentioning that you fall like an anvil, meaning you're on the heavier side. This being the case, I would investigate the type of gear being offered at your DZ. What you are looking for is a 'zero porosity' canopy, or a 'hybrid' canopy (which has a zero porosity top skin, and F-111 bottom skin for easy packing). If the DZ you have been at does not offer these types of canopies, jump elsewhere for the remainder of your student jumps. Worn out F-111 student canopies may work OK for lighter students, but they are not a friends to the bigger boys.
Try not to rely on just calling the DZ and asking. Any DZ is likely to tell you that their stuff will work just fine. Use your down time and DZ.com to network with some students and jumpers from surrounding DZs to find you what sort of gear they use for students.
Some might feel this is a drastic step, however, consider that you have already had a few hard landings, and now that you have had a tib/fib break, you're more likely to have another.
If old gear turns out to be the problem, you'll literlly be amazed at how easy it is to have a soft landing.
There is a chance you may have been jumping gutter gear. Not that it is 'unsafe' but if you were jumping F-111 canopies, and they had been in service for awhile, then you would see reduced performance in the flare department.
You may recall seeing a post or two endorsing a technique called the two-stage flare. What this entails is flaring to about half brakes (chest level) allowing the canopy to fly level for a second, and then completing the flare. Some feel this is easier to manage, as you have two oppertunities to get the timing right, and in some cases they may be right. If you are indeed jumping old F-111 student chutes, then they are sadly mistaken.
The two stage flare does not apply to F-111, and all it would do is pile you into the ground even harder then a poorly timed one-stage flare. F-111 requires a well timed and forceful flare in order to be most effective.
This is why I suggested getting your training on the day of your next jump, when the exact canopy you will be jumping and the conditions you will be jumping it in are known.
I seem to recall you posting about much better landing performance out of a slightly different canopy on one of your jumps. If the DZ you are at has a mix of F-111 and Z-po canopies, then you will see vast differences between the two.
I also seem to recall you mentioning that you fall like an anvil, meaning you're on the heavier side. This being the case, I would investigate the type of gear being offered at your DZ. What you are looking for is a 'zero porosity' canopy, or a 'hybrid' canopy (which has a zero porosity top skin, and F-111 bottom skin for easy packing). If the DZ you have been at does not offer these types of canopies, jump elsewhere for the remainder of your student jumps. Worn out F-111 student canopies may work OK for lighter students, but they are not a friends to the bigger boys.
Try not to rely on just calling the DZ and asking. Any DZ is likely to tell you that their stuff will work just fine. Use your down time and DZ.com to network with some students and jumpers from surrounding DZs to find you what sort of gear they use for students.
Some might feel this is a drastic step, however, consider that you have already had a few hard landings, and now that you have had a tib/fib break, you're more likely to have another.
If old gear turns out to be the problem, you'll literlly be amazed at how easy it is to have a soft landing.
obviously you dont follow Sangi' posts much.. altough he's seemingly a nice dude, he's even more so an expert on canopy-piloting, wingsuiting and apparently, and most annoying, at BASEjumping..
its quite understandable that people do get ANNOYED with his nonexistent knowledge, yet, he doesnt miss a chance to ask not so clever questions and give (rather poor) advice.. 
oh, and while your extreme skills at extreme sports might be valuable in those specific sports, mostly nothing translates into skydiving.. 
“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda
Yah I suffered from a transitory case of foot-in-mouth syndrome. I had misread who was being replied to and thought hte "post less, jump more" comment was towards the original thread starter.
And yes I understand nothing translates to skydiving directly, I mentioned them in regards to understanding that some skills can not be learned on the internet, however for many details, the internet forums can save someone months or even years of trial and error.
And yes I understand nothing translates to skydiving directly, I mentioned them in regards to understanding that some skills can not be learned on the internet, however for many details, the internet forums can save someone months or even years of trial and error.
~Bones Knit, blood clots, glory is forever, and chicks dig scars.~
Sangi 0
QuoteQuoteWords from an expert.
Sangi, post less, jump more.
ok im new here so maybe I have no cause to speak on this matter but I've seen this response from several people on several different topics. I may be new to jumping but im not new to the internet or extreme sports (street bikes racing/stunting, scuba -advanced rescue certified, mountaineering, white water kayaking, etc) and it pisses me off to have people post things like this on a board that is DEDICATED TO LEARNING MORE ABOUT THE SPORT. This is like telling people to learn gun safety by shooting a lot.
Nothing can replace experience, this is true, but when people come asking for help it is ridiculous to basically tell them to fuck off and go learn it themselves.
*EDIT* shit, nevermind, I just realized the response I qouted was not meant to be towards the original poster but a reply to someone else instead.
Sigh... Cant you read? I'm not telling him to fuck off and learn everything himself... I'm asking how in hell did he manage to brake himself with a huge ass forgiving student canopy?
"Dream as you'll live forever, live as you'll die today." James Dean
QuoteSigh... Cant you read? I'm not telling him to fuck off and learn everything himself... I'm asking how in hell did he manage to brake himself with a huge ass forgiving student canopy?
Wow can you read? His post was not even directed at you! Btw you have no clue about what he was even jumping so dont sit here and ask stupid ass questions about how he can hurt his self under a big student canopy. Troll on Sangi!Nothing opens like a Deere!
You ignorant fool! Checks are for workers!
You ignorant fool! Checks are for workers!
I removed a lot of bickering from this thread.
Simply put: Stop it.
Ian
Simply put: Stop it.
Ian
Performance Designs Factory Team
shah269 0
I WANT TO LAND LIKE THIS!
http://vimeo.com/4712582
This is how I want my landings to look! Not the controlled crashes I've had thus far!
How do I do this?
Shah
http://vimeo.com/4712582
This is how I want my landings to look! Not the controlled crashes I've had thus far!
How do I do this?
Shah
Life through good thoughts, good words, and good deeds is necessary to ensure happiness and to keep chaos at bay.
The only thing that falls from the sky is birdshit and fools!
The only thing that falls from the sky is birdshit and fools!
skybytch 259
QuoteI WANT TO LAND LIKE THIS!
No you don't. That was not a good landing. She got lucky.
QuoteHow do I do this?
Flare too high, let it up a bit and then flare again. But really, it's far better to flare once at close to the right altitude and hold it...
Sangi 0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qbO6Eo3cQyI
"Dream as you'll live forever, live as you'll die today." James Dean
GaVak 0
OP -- I'm still working on my landings too. For every 2 I stand up, I have 1 that I flare too low/high and end up in a PLF. My brain hasn't gotten the knack for knowing when I'm supposed to flare... Though I must say, low flares hurt a hell of a lot more than high ones.
~Gav
~Gav
Life doesn't need reasons, just participants.
D.S.#21
D.S.#21
rlucus 0
QuoteOP -- I'm still working on my landings too. For every 2 I stand up, I have 1 that I flare too low/high and end up in a PLF. My brain hasn't gotten the knack for knowing when I'm supposed to flare... Though I must say, low flares hurt a hell of a lot more than high ones.
~Gav
...high flares have a much higher possibility of serious injury. Depending the height of the stall you can easily hit the ground with more speed than if you hadn't flared at all. (at best with no forward motion, which helps with a PLF. Also with possibility of falling backwards with a high chance of wrist and arm injury)
QuoteThough I must say, low flares hurt a hell of a lot more than high ones.
That's ture, if the follwing is true -
You know the stall point of your canopy, and you are careful not to get to that point at anytime near the ground. On student canopies, you may not be able to stall the canopy at all if the steering lines are set long, or your arms were made short. Either way, keep the canopy flying at all times at any altitude lower than you would want to cutaway.
Also, if you flare high, never put your hands back up. Ever. You can always stop your flare the moment you notice you are too high, holding your hands where they are at that time, and complete it when you get to a more appropriate altitude. Trying to put your hands back up and start over is a huge mistake that can end badly.
Lastly, whatever altitude you flare at, be sure to finish the flare before you make contact with the ground, and be ready to perform a PLF.
mdrejhon 8
Shah,QuoteGod I love free fall! I LOVE IT! I absolutely hate everything after that! It's as if I just don't have enough time to process what's going on! And so this, half flare, stabilize, review the situation and land full flare may be more for me.
Shah
This is a VERY important question:
What is the name, model and size of canopy you jumped? 7-cell PD, Manta, Sabre, Pilot, etc. Size 210, 230, 260, 288, etc?
Can you please look in your logbook and find out if the instructor wrote down the canopy you landed under? It should be there. Logbooks are supposed to contain this information. If this was not documented at all, you might want to consider going elsewhere to finish student training -- if you don't even know what parachute hurt you, and what parachute gave you the best landing? You mentioned you jumped 2 different ones.
I've landed mediocre under one brand/size, while I land near-perfectly under a different brand/size, at a specific skill level. It may make a massive difference, assuming the comments are accurate. But we need to know the model and size of your canopy. (distinguished from the name of the container/rig. A 'Vector' or 'Javelin' isn't a parachute, for example.) Additional bonus point if you manage to obtain age information about the canopy (number of jumps it had). Age information is usually not recorded into logbooks, but may have some contributing role in your injury. Even an adequately-maintained 260-sqft canopy with over 1000 jumps could, in some cases, end up being more dangerous than well maintained smaller 210-sqft canopy with under 100 jumps. Despite the wingloading difference. (In fact I've seen new 210's float down more slowly than a 260 -- due to age of fabric, permeability of fabric, etc)
You come into the forum barging in like going onto a motorcycle forum complaining how you got hurt under a borrowed motorcycle of a brand and model you don't even mention because you don't know what you rode. (Was it a Harley? Was it a Suzuki?)
Nudge, nudge -- you know?
Same thing here...
(in the 'keep us in the dark' sense.)
So.... What did you jump?
shah269 0
I'm getting info on the gear now.
Give me a sec
Give me a sec
Life through good thoughts, good words, and good deeds is necessary to ensure happiness and to keep chaos at bay.
The only thing that falls from the sky is birdshit and fools!
The only thing that falls from the sky is birdshit and fools!
Shah269,
What size canopy are you jumping? A 9 Cell doesn't say much but if you want soft landings you should be jumping a 230 sq ft canopy of just about any manufacturer.
I have been jumping for 37 years and being about the same weight as you, I too had hard landings on several of the canopies I tried over the years. Back in the 80's, the squares I jumped included the para cloud's and the cruise air/lite's. These were F111 fabrics and I could shut them down to a tip toe landing every time.
With the introduction of the zero P's, I noticed a lot of differences including the forward speeds when landing which forced me to run. Having a bad ankle which doesn't allow me to run, I proceeded to test a lot of different parachutes out there. I concluded there are only a very few models that you can shut down even in no wind. The Silhouette which is made by PD is one of those canopies, however the timing when flaring is critical. The best one out there is the PD Spectre. It's a 7 cell and has great performance with nice flare that isn't as critical as the Silhouette. You can go to their web site and request a demo which they let you use for 2 weekends, even longer if you need it.
I actually have both canopies and if the winds are 10 or better, I fly the silhouette and for very light or no wind, I use the Spectre.
Stay with it and try a few canopies, but make sure they are 210, 220 or 230, they will let you down easy.
Good Luck
What size canopy are you jumping? A 9 Cell doesn't say much but if you want soft landings you should be jumping a 230 sq ft canopy of just about any manufacturer.
I have been jumping for 37 years and being about the same weight as you, I too had hard landings on several of the canopies I tried over the years. Back in the 80's, the squares I jumped included the para cloud's and the cruise air/lite's. These were F111 fabrics and I could shut them down to a tip toe landing every time.
With the introduction of the zero P's, I noticed a lot of differences including the forward speeds when landing which forced me to run. Having a bad ankle which doesn't allow me to run, I proceeded to test a lot of different parachutes out there. I concluded there are only a very few models that you can shut down even in no wind. The Silhouette which is made by PD is one of those canopies, however the timing when flaring is critical. The best one out there is the PD Spectre. It's a 7 cell and has great performance with nice flare that isn't as critical as the Silhouette. You can go to their web site and request a demo which they let you use for 2 weekends, even longer if you need it.
I actually have both canopies and if the winds are 10 or better, I fly the silhouette and for very light or no wind, I use the Spectre.
Stay with it and try a few canopies, but make sure they are 210, 220 or 230, they will let you down easy.
Good Luck
You live more in the few minutes of skydiving than many people live in their lifetime
shah269 0
I'm still waiting on data as to what I jumped with.
But so far I haven't gotten any data. Oddly no one is telling me...which is kind of strange. But I'm sure it's because they are just too busy.
But yeah I'm looking to "walk" away from my landings.
No need to swoop...I have a motorcycle for that!
But so far I haven't gotten any data. Oddly no one is telling me...which is kind of strange. But I'm sure it's because they are just too busy.
But yeah I'm looking to "walk" away from my landings.
No need to swoop...I have a motorcycle for that!
Life through good thoughts, good words, and good deeds is necessary to ensure happiness and to keep chaos at bay.
The only thing that falls from the sky is birdshit and fools!
The only thing that falls from the sky is birdshit and fools!
One of the things Brian said in his class (I did it @ jump 15) was that you get better at stuff you love. The more you hate flying your canopy, the harder it will be to get good at it (to paraphrase).
I love flying my canopy, sometimes that's all I want to do. ; )
Good luck, hope you heal up well, go chat to your instructors, even before you're ready to jump again.
Share this post
Link to post
Share on other sites