Yeah....soft landings? How do you do it?

[shah269 0]

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Two stage flare probably isnt the best thing to be advising on an F111 student canpopy...!

I know from the ones I jumped they had to be flared in one positive motion or else they 'lost' their flare power and you struck terra firma quite hard!

You don't say...looking at right leg!
Hell half flare doesn't even work on these things! And I think that's where I was. Down draft was bringing me down, too much info to process at wonce and my hands didn't pass my belt line. Which for this fat bird was half flare!

Life through good thoughts, good words, and good deeds is necessary to ensure happiness and to keep chaos at bay.

The only thing that falls from the sky is birdshit and fools!

[parachutist 1]

In your original thread you mentioned a downdraft that you experienced while you were at low altitude. Downdrafts don't just appear out of nowhere. There are telltale signs you can learn to guide you toward smooth air.

Another riding analogy that fits here: It's like when you first start riding in a busy city environment... cars are everywhere and you trying to predict what they're each going to do seems impossible. After years of experience however, you feel like you're one step ahead of their actions. You see signs of what motorists are planning to do. Example: A car ahead of you starts drifting slightly to the left... good chance it's cause he/she is looking in the mirror and soon going to change lanes to the right. So a little red flag goes up in your head.

How that relates to canopy flight - supposing you're at 1500 ft and you notice the winds changed in the last few minutes.... so you're rearranging your landing pattern. Maybe you picked a great spot to land in earlier, but now that winds have changed, the same area may be treacherous now because of obstacles that are upwind of your landing area. A red flag should go up in your head and you should pick an area that has no upwind obstacles.

While you're on the couch instead of in the sky, I'd say take this opportunity to learn. There are books and videos available at your favorite skydiving stores. You can develop skills much more quickly using tools like those.

[shah269 0]

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While you're on the couch instead of in the sky, I'd say take this opportunity to learn. There are books and videos available at your favorite skydiving stores. You can develop skills much more quickly using tools like those.

That's the plan, can you point me in the right direction?

Life through good thoughts, good words, and good deeds is necessary to ensure happiness and to keep chaos at bay.

The only thing that falls from the sky is birdshit and fools!

[NWFlyer 2]

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While you're on the couch instead of in the sky, I'd say take this opportunity to learn. There are books and videos available at your favorite skydiving stores. You can develop skills much more quickly using tools like those.

That's the plan, can you point me in the right direction?

You've had at least two people in this thread recommend Brian Germain's book. Here's a third.

http://www.bigairsportz.com/publishing.php#parachute

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[shah269 0]

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While you're on the couch instead of in the sky, I'd say take this opportunity to learn. There are books and videos available at your favorite skydiving stores. You can develop skills much more quickly using tools like those.

That's the plan, can you point me in the right direction?

You've had at least two people in this thread recommend Brian Germain's book. Here's a third.

http://www.bigairsportz.com/publishing.php#parachute

ordering it jsut this morning. But someone mentoined a video? But the book will be a great help.

Life through good thoughts, good words, and good deeds is necessary to ensure happiness and to keep chaos at bay.

The only thing that falls from the sky is birdshit and fools!

[mdrejhon 8]

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mdrejhon
I'm also 190lbs with out my rig.
Do you think I still qualify as lightly loaded?
And yes...the thing needed aggressive flares to do anything.
Ok thank you so much for your help. I'll relay this info back to the DZ. I can't wait till i jump next spring.
Shah

Wingloading is a formula based on weight and size of parachute. Your weight can either be lightly loaded or heavily loaded, depending on parachute size.

Your fully-geared-up weight is probaby 220lbs (190lbs + 30lbs student gear/suit). As a result, divide your weight by canopy size

220lbs ÷ 260sq ft = 0.846

This is usually fine for a student on a good ZP, but I would probably not recommend this wingloading for a student of landing difficulties on Z111, especially if it's well worn like most student gear is, AND especially if you're a short guy of extra weight (you even mentioned as such). Short guys have difficulty using the full flare power of a Z111. And you're heavy for a guy of your height.

I think it's a good idea to not jump the same gear again. Go bigger and/or ZP, ideally both.

Also, be aware when relaying info back to the dropzone, many dropzones will tell you not to listen to dropzone.com (though a balanced answer from an instructor may be that there are so much good and bad information on dropzone.com, and it's a bit risky for students to come to their judgements without the instructor's help).

I think it's reasonable to summarize these factors certainly didn't help:
- F111, especially if worn, isn't friendly to late or partial flares. Enough said.
- Half flare as you mentioned. Student error. But good big student parachutes shouldn't easily break legs on a half flare.
- You as a short-but-heavier guy may have more difficulty flaring to full extension. (Instructors sometimes actually miss this one). So you may even actually have done less than a half flare.

I think your life of landing will be easier, and more pleasant with these recommendations:
- Do not jump the same gear again! Just to be safe.
- Try to get ZP and/or bigger canopy -- Lighter wing loading and better flare power. That way, a half or partial flare isn't as dangerous. Definitely try to get ZP, it makes a difference.
- Try to confirm with dropzone that the lines aren't too long on the next rig you jump, explaining you're a short-and-heavy guy so you don't have the flare stroke distance of a taller guy.
- Next jump could be a canopy practice jump with higher pull altitude, and dozens of practice flares (extra jump, not for AFF advancement)
- Some study, such as Brian Germian's book. That's a fourth recommendation. Skip the latter chapters for now, this book is usually for licensed skydivers. The info in this book can be a little dangerous if too early but in this case, it shouldn't be, and is helpful study while you're grounded. Listen to your instructors, not the book, but the background will help you be confident and may fill what the instructors didn't fill in.
- Hang out at the dropzone on the ground. You learn lots just hanging out.
- Visit another dropzone or two, to discuss gear, and get a feel for how accomodating they are. Tell them everything, heavy guy, short flare stroke, F111, half flare. They may actually be familiar with this and have have good ideas for you, and put you on the equivalent of easy-rider student gear that's got good performance (maybe a Sabre2 260 parachute or similiar) which may be reason enough to start AFF again at a different dropzone. It may become like riding a tricycle in comparision. You'll probably feel relieved to fly most ZP-based 260 or bigger, especially if not well worn, and especially if they are willing to adjust the toggle brake line lengths slightly for you (offer to pay the cost of this temporary adjustment) - one or two inches can make a big difference for short arms, (or at least a line length re-verification, as ZP with properly adjusted lines is reasonably friendly to a soft-touchdown with just a half flares by itself on light-to-moderate wind days)

[dharma1976 0]

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A 265 Falcon. No clue as to the number of jumps on her.
But I think she may be a little old.

Man why can't I have landings as soft as the girl in the video. I just want to walk away. NO ass skidding, no hard lanings, I just want to walk.

she was old when I started jumping there in 2005

Dave

http://www.skyjunky.com

CSpenceFLY - I can't believe the number of people willing to bet their life on someone else doing the right thing.

[shah269 0]

mdrejhon,
Thank you so much for the amazing insight!
I trust my instructor and friend Sim with my life.
I know he gave me the best help he could. But some times the dice....well they can be loaded.
And I agree, short arms, and a well worn bit of kit didn't help me much.
In fact I'm talking with the DZ and we are already talking about importing a larger more modern chute.
And don't laugh but man I took notes from your post.
As soon as the leg gets better off to the DZ I go with a case of soda and a note book.
Thank you so much for your help guys!
I can't tell you how grateful I am!
God I can't wait to fly and be able to simply walk away from a landing and thank the sky gods for giving man the gift of flight!

Life through good thoughts, good words, and good deeds is necessary to ensure happiness and to keep chaos at bay.

The only thing that falls from the sky is birdshit and fools!

[parachutist 1]

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But someone mentoined a video? But the book will be a great help.

Canopy Control: Core Essentials is a good video, all about learning your canopy and your flying environment. It's available at several skydiving retail stores.

disclaimer: My opinion of this video may be biased because I helped write it and produce it.

Here's a third party review of the video. This review was recently featured on Dropzone.com's front page:
http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/safety/detail_page.cgi?ID=714

[mdrejhon 8]

Ooops, two minor errors in my post:
- I meant 265, not 260 square foot. But the wingloading is similiar.
- I meant F111, not Z111. (But hopefully you figured that one out)

Make sure your notes reflect this, if you copied anything for the dropzone to review. As always, make sure the instructor reviews and not to try anything new from this forum independently without instructor approval.

It sounds like the dropzone would be easily able to agree to jump you on a more modern and forgiving canopy, especially with the short arms and extra weight, adding well-known additional risk with an older F111 canopy. You can always at least refuse to jump if the dropzone tries to put you on the Falcon 265, and I recommend you are clear about not jumping the Falcon 265 again. (Even though it might be pretty safe for a more lightweight person with longer arms than yours)

Either way, you'll probably, in all likelihood, have a pleasant surprise, similiar to the pleasant surprise you got with Skyventure Montreal improvement over Niagara Freefall (Flyaway technology), which you recently visited both and how you remarked the tunnel was better.
Trust me on that one -- new/fresh ZP is *that* much of an improvement over old F111 That said, study up buddy -- it's still not a perfectly safe sport. And you will probably need to forget most things about what you learned about flaring an old F111, since the ZP flare procedure is different. (But it will, on average, be more forgiving, even if only do a half flare).

[dharma1976 0]

sim is a great instructor and will look out for you in many ways :-0

Tell him Junky says whats up

Dave

http://www.skyjunky.com

CSpenceFLY - I can't believe the number of people willing to bet their life on someone else doing the right thing.

[shah269 0]

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sim is a great instructor and will look out for you in many ways :-0

Tell him Junky says whats up

Dave

Yeah he's da man! And boy can the boy fly!
If it wasn't for him....I would not even consider even going back inthe air!

Life through good thoughts, good words, and good deeds is necessary to ensure happiness and to keep chaos at bay.

The only thing that falls from the sky is birdshit and fools!

[wmw999 2,121]

Para-Gear has a number of videos, as well as just stuff to look at while you're healing.

When you come back, after your recurrency jump, dedicate a few skydives just to canopy control. It'll give you confidence, and you'll progress faster in the freefall when you're not as worried about the canopy flight afterwards. Any good instructor will help you with that.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[k-dubjumps 0]

I asked for some flaring advice back in June. I received a lot of really good feedback. I just got back to jumping again after 7 weeks off due to an ankle sprain. It helped me, maybe it will help you when your back up again.

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3588795;page=unread#unread

Adrenaline is my crack

DPH #3
D.S. #16 FAG #12 Muff Brother #4406

[shah269 0]

Thank you so much every one! Greatly appreciate the help!

Life through good thoughts, good words, and good deeds is necessary to ensure happiness and to keep chaos at bay.

The only thing that falls from the sky is birdshit and fools!

[shah269 0]

OK! After speaking to the guys at the DZ who were there at the time of the accident....it was all 100% my fault.
Yes I was blown a little to the right due to some turbulence but the accident was all my fault.
As I came down I went to flare but somehow my brain froze and I only went half way, hands to belly button and not all the way past my belt. And as such I was not fully flared out.
According to people I "bounced" up due to the half flare and then the canopy moved over my head and past me due to what I think would be called a stall..
So it was all may fault, way too much data process for my brain and to slow a reflex add to a windy day and now I have a bum leg.

Life through good thoughts, good words, and good deeds is necessary to ensure happiness and to keep chaos at bay.

The only thing that falls from the sky is birdshit and fools!

[dharma1976 0]

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OK! After speaking to the guys at the DZ who were there at the time of the accident....it was all 100% my fault.
Yes I was blown a little to the right due to some turbulence but the accident was all my fault.
As I came down I went to flare but somehow my brain froze and I only went half way, hands to belly button and not all the way past my belt. And as such I was not fully flared out.
According to people I "bounced" up due to the half flare and then the canopy moved over my head and past me due to what I think would be called a stall..
So it was all may fault, way too much data process for my brain and to slow a reflex add to a windy day and now I have a bum leg.

I left a divot there myself man, its where I gained my titanium ankle I will post a great picture of me and my friend matt gimping across the grass on crutches at some point...

Team left foot titanium

D

http://www.skyjunky.com

CSpenceFLY - I can't believe the number of people willing to bet their life on someone else doing the right thing.

[Sangi 0]

Well, who's else fault could it be? You're the one flying the canopy

"Dream as you'll live forever, live as you'll die today." James Dean

[shah269 0]

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Well, who's else fault could it be? You're the one flying the canopy

Well for a while we were blaming the very very old rig.
I recall some one indicating that the chute was something like 10 years old and very pours.
I my self was blaming wind gusts and me being too eager to jump and not patient enough for calmer weather.
It is a hit to ones ego when one has to admit that it was ALL their fault. And talking to the guys at the DZ and sitting down and really thinking of what happened....it was all my fault!

Life through good thoughts, good words, and good deeds is necessary to ensure happiness and to keep chaos at bay.

The only thing that falls from the sky is birdshit and fools!

[shah269 0]

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I left a divot there myself man, its where I gained my titanium ankle I will post a great picture of me and my friend matt gimping across the grass on crutches at some point...

Team left foot titanium

D

OUCH D! Wow how long to fix that! I hear ankles are a real bitch to fix.
I don't know, when I dropped my bike i knew it was my fault and I was able to practice and de learn the behavior that caused my accident. But things on a bike happen slower and you can repeat them over and over on a simple street.
But the proper flare the proper landing...the more I think about it....what 5 seconds?
I'm going to take the canopy class a soon as it's given and read as much as i can (as soon as that stupid book shows up) and watch people land on student rigs....but honestly....I don't know..the more I think about it the more freaked out i get.

Life through good thoughts, good words, and good deeds is necessary to ensure happiness and to keep chaos at bay.

The only thing that falls from the sky is birdshit and fools!

[Baksteen 84]

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It is a hit to ones ego when one has to admit that it was ALL their fault. And talking to the guys at the DZ and sitting down and really thinking of what happened....it was all my fault!

But it is a huge point in your favour to step up and admit it. It would be all too easy to refuse to listen to the guys who were there and keep blaming all the other things that were discussed previously.
Well done, Shah!

"That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport."
~mom

[dharma1976 0]

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It is a hit to ones ego when one has to admit that it was ALL their fault. And talking to the guys at the DZ and sitting down and really thinking of what happened....it was all my fault!

But it is a huge point in your favour to step up and admit it. It would be all too easy to refuse to listen to the guys who were there and keep blaming all the other things that were discussed previously.
Well done, Shah!

Knowing who is there, I would trust what they said :-)

talk to Ryan, hippie, or Sim, they know a lot about how to stay in decent shape and how to fly canopies.

Dave

http://www.skyjunky.com

CSpenceFLY - I can't believe the number of people willing to bet their life on someone else doing the right thing.

[shah269 0]

They are really good guys! Very smart very on top of things!
But I'm told as DZ's go it's a little on the smaller side?
Ah what ever it was my fault, and that just well tickes me off....how could I have fazed out like that?
Only half flare? Hands down to my belly button....what a dumb ass move!

Life through good thoughts, good words, and good deeds is necessary to ensure happiness and to keep chaos at bay.

The only thing that falls from the sky is birdshit and fools!

[Rstanley0312 0]

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They are really good guys! Very smart very on top of things!
But I'm told as DZ's go it's a little on the smaller side?
Ah what ever it was my fault, and that just well tickes me off....how could I have fazed out like that?
Only half flare? Hands down to my belly button....what a dumb ass move!

Brother... I have watched that happen more than a few times and even know a jumper with 1000+ jumps that still doesn't know how to flare properly..... he hits hard everytime. It is only a matter of time before he breaks something. Good for you and I hope you heal quickly!

Life is all about ass....either you're kicking it, kissing it, working it off, or trying to get a piece of it.
Muff Brother #4382 Dudeist Skydiver #000
www.fundraiseadventure.com

[mdrejhon 8]

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They are really good guys! Very smart very on top of things!
But I'm told as DZ's go it's a little on the smaller side?
Ah what ever it was my fault, and that just well tickes me off....how could I have fazed out like that?
Only half flare? Hands down to my belly button....what a dumb ass move!

That said, even if it is 100% your fault, there IS gear that's more forgiving to a half flare mistake. Just don't jump the Falcon 265 again at your weight and physique. There are more forgiving gear.