Velocity? Future? Competition Regulations?

[superstu 0]

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The argument of pilot skill is irrelevant here.

so is all the preaching of it's the pilot not the canopy irrelevant too?

Slip Stream Air Sports
Do not go softly, do not go quietly, never back down

[ianmdrennan 2]

Stu,

I think he means from a competition regulation stand point.

Personally I think the sport is too small, currently, to limit what you can participate under. One day, if we ever get big enough then I think addressing these issues will be necessary but for now I have no issue with it.

Would I like all the new toys, sure! Will not having them stop me from competing....not at this stage! The sport is too small to make any respectable amount of money. For most of us it's about seeing old friends, competing together again, and cheering each other on...and that includes those flying 'different' wings. So really, if Jay-mo kicks the shit out of me under an XB, I don't really care
Blues,
Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[Spizzzarko 0]

You say:

"they held our load off for an hour to get tandems up and by the time we got to jump the wind went from 0 to 8mph head wind, but hey, that's competition i guess."


I'm going to write my congressman about that and take a shit on Frank's desk just because that happened to you! God forbid that damn DZ send tandems when we are having a comp!
I agree with you that the tandems were annoying at the last comp, and I think that just because they are a tandem that it doesn't automaticly grant them right of way but that is a different argument for me to get flamed on.

Your accomplishments in the last comp were nothing short of stellar and you should be proud. The point I am making is that Jay (in my opinion) has an added advantage other than just skill with a modified canopy that your sponsors did not let you fly. Therefore (whether his xb was the same as everyone elses like Jay told me it was or if it was different) it should have put him in a different class because no one else could readily go out and purchase the same setup. Sure you can argue the fact that we can go and change canopies like your friend did with his VX, but we cannot go out and match the canopy that Jay or Maha were jumping because we have no idea what they changed. I'm not faulting PD for keeping that information classified, but I strongly feel that experimental or modified canopies that the general populous cannot easily go out and recreate should compete and be scored in a different class for prize money and records.

You say:
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Jay set the world record with weight and a modded canopy(674' or something like that). How many people have come close to that on a "stock" canopy? Stu you are doing really well with 475' but I have not seen you get anywhere near 674'.

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ok, well lets strap on 80 #'s and break the record. hell, lets make it one of the events at the next PST after the pro/am."


According to the rules we cannot do that. The weight system was enacted and if we did do that (successfully) it would mean nothing. Let's look at it from a different angle (Grant's Angular Theorum is as follows: The angle of the dangle is inversly proportionate to the speed of the beat). What is to stop someone from putting a slider on a paraglider, exiting the aircraft and deploying the paraglider, making gates and flying 900' to set a new world record? As long as I didn't strap on weight to exceede the weight limits, as long as I exited the jump aircraft, and as long as I made gates I would be legal as far as the letter of the law. Now is that fair for you or the rest of the competitors if I went and did that? In my opinion "NO". Does that skirt the intent of the rule? In my opinion "YES" and so does competing with canopies that are not readily available to the general competition populous.

You say:
"The only unfair advantage i can really see jay having is that he has 6000+ jumps. if others put in the time and money to develop their skills then they'll also have that advantage, but when it comes down to it i personally only know of a few people that are willing to do that."

I would not go so far as to call Jay's experience level an unfair advantage. The dude is talented and there is no doubt about that, but so are many other people to include you. The fact of the matter is, experience can be obtained by anyone over time. An XB canopy can only obtained by PD deeming you to be worthy of jumping a modified / prototype canopy. I'm sure PD doesn't deem me worthy and I am sure my skill level is not that of yours or most of th eother competitors out there, but I would really like an even playing field where these competitions are a measure of ones skill and technique instead of who has the more effecient wing. True, anyone can be beat and if you have the ubber wing that no one else has it still will not help you if you are having a shitty comp, but if you are doing well then the ubber wing will compliment the skill of the pilot. Whenever PD does release the new itteration of the Velocity I am sure it will be an awesome wing, and I look forward to trying it out so I can be competitive with YOU!

[AggieDave 6]

To what extent? I have a RDS, that's a modification. So are my long risers with a custom dive loop setup. I have a custom chest strap on my rig that is much longer then stock.

Whats the cutoff for stock vs modified? You know, at the end of the day no matter what sort of bitch'n mods my canopy has I can't outswoop those guys right now. Someday, maybe. Now? Heh, not even close.

Hell, I'm 275 out the door and jump a Velo 120. Some would call that a severe advantage.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[Spizzzarko 0]

"To what extent? I have a RDS, that's a modification. So are my long risers with a custom dive loop setup. I have a custom chest strap on my rig that is much longer then stock. "

You are right Dave, those are modifications, but every Harry, Dick, and Tom can go out there and get those mods, so it eventually becomes an even playing field. Your loading is a natural advantage and I don't really have an answer for that one, but smaller people can wear some weight to catch up. If you downsize a lot then you would probably beging to go past a point of deminishing returns on performance because of loading.

As far as cut off goes I think that anything not commercially available to the general populous should be put into a different class.

[AggieDave 6]

Maybe companies like PD will open up a performance shop, much like GM and Ford with their engines. You can buy the stuff that the big dogs race with, but there's basically no warranty and your on your own. Even just linesets. Sell the factory team lineset, uninstalled, no warranty. Thats like buying a custom ground cam that drag racers would use.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[frost 1]

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The argument of pilot skill is irrelevant here.

so is all the preaching of it's the pilot not the canopy irrelevant too?

Stu, in the context of this discussion, the focus of which is regulating competition (or sport) swooping, absolutely.

P.S. - Ian, may be splitting this into a separate discussion is a good idea? This is becoming interesting topic and Grant is making some valid points.

[Spizzzarko 0]

How many skydiving companies have given a warranty? PD has pretty good customer service but many other ones out there let you know that you are pretty much on your own after the sale.

I see your point about aftermarket parts and you can get some of them through Mel or some other experimental rigger, and I think that doesn't encompass a modified or prototype canopy. The class that I am arguing for would include canopies that have modifications that you or I could not easily get on the open market either because the canopy is totally different and not for sale or because the technology is proprietary to the company. The competition results of those canopies should not be held against the scores of those flying stock.

PD is really good about releasing spot on products, but their R&D does take quite awhile. Other companies are quicker to release options or products.

Look at PD's RDS. The RDS has really started to become mainstream in the swooping environment. PD folks have been using RDS's since 2000 if I recall correctly. There have been many changes to designs since then (the designs today are much safer than the ones in the beginning), but PD is just now semi endorsing a product (if you could call it that). The RDS Scott Roberts makes is what they use. PD doesn't even mention it on their website. They don't even mention 300 HMA (see link below)

http://www.performancedesigns.com/docs/PartsPriceList.pdf

So you can see that PD is very carefull about what they endorse or sell to the general populous. There are some good aftermarket people out there but I'm sure they would have a hard time doing what some manufacturers do to their prototype / modified canopies.

[AggieDave 6]

I was referencing less the "aftermarket" companies out there and more stating that the companies can open up an aftermarket or performance devision of sorts. If I want to build a dirt track racer or drag racer I can buy all the components that just about all the big dogs get to use. There are factory built performance engines, etc.

I was stating that maybe PD and Icarus, etc will start allowing some of the less proven high performance stuff specifically for competition. I'm not going to hold my breath, but it would be cool.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[ianmdrennan 2]

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I'm not going to hold my breath, but it would be cool.

I don't think so. I have no desire to pay 2.5-3g's to be a test pilot for any of these companies unless they pay me to do so.

I'd rather have a polished product at the end, which has a much lesser chance of being the next 'Nova'.

Blues,
Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

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I'd rather have a polished product at the end, which has a much lesser chance of being the next 'Nova'

that is a very BOLD statement Ian.

[dharma1976 0]

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and Grant is making some valid points.

isnt that one of the seven signs of the apocalypse?

Dave

http://www.skyjunky.com

CSpenceFLY - I can't believe the number of people willing to bet their life on someone else doing the right thing.

[ianmdrennan 2]

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I'd rather have a polished product at the end, which has a much lesser chance of being the next 'Nova'

that is a very BOLD statement Ian.

Huh? Just saying I've done the 'testing' stuff before and didn't like it much - remember all the line/trim changes that I was messing with?

It's a pretty simple statement. I want good R&D and I'd rather have someone else be the test pilot until the major kinks are worked out.

Blues,
Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[AggieDave 6]

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It's a pretty simple statement. I want good R&D.

What I'm talking about does not equal no or incomplete R&D. For instance, PD has done many many things with testing the line sets for a Velo. There are some good versions that they have that are not stock linesets that the factory pilots have used and approved of. That could be sold. The RDS is another example, they've had them and used them for a long time. Even with Scott's early designs. They've been using a proven design for a while now but have just now gotten around to selling it this year or so.

At the end of the day, though, its important to remember that at competitions with the factory teams are the ones that will be testing the new designs and changes. Just like in every other kind of racing.

Swooping is and has been growing up in that regard. The weight restrictions is a bit like having restricter plates on the carbs for instance. Or the fuel restrictions in drag racing.

I do believe, though, as swooping continues to grow we'll get more and more non-factory riggers making changes in linesets and various other changes to stock canopies. Its the nature of the beast. As that happens we will be the test jumpers with each change, but having a factory that is willing to release changes sooner through a "pro shop" might help that faction.

Will any of this help me out? Not really, not yet, I'm not to that point in my skill set, ability and experience. Is it neat to play with the same "toys" that the big dogs get to use? Sure.

I still think about the factory pilots and how good they have to be to take different canopy designs (variations of designs on a single canopy) and still be not only consistent but be very competitive with something that is new and different to them.

This is a fun discussion and maybe someday we'll have an "unlimited" class when it comes to canopy design, choice and weight restrictions. Although as of now there just aren't the number of competitors to allow that. Then there may be a stock class as well.

Nothing is new, this ground has already been covered by more then one motorsport. That's why I keep referencing those sports in my posts. These discussions happened over 50 years ago with the same grips, concerns, complaints and suggestions. The fix back in the 60s were to require a production run of a car to be allowed in stock car racing. That resulted in 1500-ish car productions runs. Maybe a similar rule would help this situation. Obviously in smaller numbers, but the same concept. Have a 100 canopy production run that is available to the public to be allowed in a "stock" class of canopies.

If you haven't heard of this a little reading on the internet about stock car racing will show you many similarities to the arguments being made. Start with the Plymouth Superbird (its a car) and go from there.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[proswooper 2]

i cant comment on the canadian nationals but i will say at the world cup in vienna that every round was a roll of the dice as to whether you had a downwind or head wind or mega turbulence. so it is not a fair comparison between canopy performances. i will say that at the swoop fest in chicago two years ago the wind conditions for distance were nil for everyone in everyround and the prototype that jay was flying went noticeably further than anything else. it was consistently 50-80 feet further than the rest.

i think competitions should be won by the person with the best skill and performance on the day not the person with the best toys.

i used a prototype unavailable to the public for two rounds of speed in a competition last year and obliterated everyone else. did i feel like i had achieved something? absolutely not!! i put the canopy away and did the rest of the comp on my stock JVX. its not fair to all the others in the comp.

its great for manufactures to say their canopy is always top of the pack and winning every comp and claiming that it is a stock canopy and if you buy one you could achieve that same result. but it simply is a marketing ploy. i could have won the other rounds by jumping the prototype and then said it was a JVX but it would have been immoral and not a fair competition.

[proswooper 2]

i dont think you would reduce the number of competitors by regulating competitions to canopies available to everyone

although we may see companies puting a stock label and logo on a prototype canopy again and that would put us back in the same position.

[Spizzzarko 0]

"i could have won the other rounds by jumping the prototype and then said it was a JVX but it would have been immoral and not a fair competition"

I'm glad you feel that way Paul. That is very honest and goes with the spirit of the competition. It seems though that some people want to win so bad that they will bend the rules in their favor. I'm not saying that factory teams do this, but that it just sucks when there isn't an even playing field.

I talked to Jim about this in length several weeks back. He mentioned that we was pushing for a class system like they have in 4-way, but that it got shot down because the manufacturers wanted to beable to hold records. This is what Jim told me. As far as a class system goes I think it is a great idea and here is how I would run it if I were king (I would sit on my glistening white porceline throne and dictate!):

Intermediate class:
This class would be all stock canopies and be run like the CPC. There would be weight restrictions and RDS restrictions. This class would be geared more for those starting out. The CPC seemed to be intended for that type of swooper but there is a lot of freaking talent in it now. Take the first year with Brian McNenny. He basicly blasted everyone out of the water. At that time coming in 1-3 was the only way to get onto the PST. This has since changed and there are other modes of getting out of the CPC. I like it now so that it doesn't clog up the CPC with amazing talent. Also, if you came in the top 10% of the competitors then you would have to move up in class then next year.

Advanced:
I would imagine that this class would still have weight restrictions but allow modified canopies that anyone on the free market could get to include RDS's, technorra, removal of stabilizers, ect. This class would have individuals who are not heavilly sponsored but still like to compete. I would compete in this class. I am not sponsered but I have made changes to my canopy to include technorra lines (stock length), 24" risers, and an RDS. I am really not eligable to wear weight except a pound or two so I really don't even bother. All records achieved in this class would be held against the intermediate and advanced classes. I feel this class would pretty much mirror the type of competitors in the PST with exception to the factory teams.

Open Class:
In this class there would be no weight restricitions or prototype / modification restrictions. All records acheived in this class would only be held against those competing in this class.

This is only an idea and I am not the king of the swoop competitions so it pretty much is worthless I guess.

[Spizzzarko 0]

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I'd rather have a polished product at the end, which has a much lesser chance of being the next 'Nova'

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that is a very BOLD statement Ian.

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Huh? Just saying I've done the 'testing' stuff before and didn't like it much - remember all the line/trim changes that I was messing with?






"Are we in Englewood? I'll take the pepsi challenge with that amsterdam shit any day of the week!"

Ok back on topic...

Yes being a test jumper does suck balls because you never really know when bad things could happen, but I feel the excuse of factories needing to compare their test products against the rest of the field is bull shit. They can do all of the comparison that they need to do on non competition jumps.

I am of the opinion that canopy manufactures are using the fact that their canopies win competitions as a selling point and that they will do a lot to keep on top. Is it fair for a company to tout that their product is the best because it wins all these competitions and then sell a different product to the masses? I don't think so. I'm not singleing any company out because I am sure they ALL do it. It would be more accurate for them to say that we win because we have employed the best pilot that day. Please do not take this as me starting a brand war because I am in NO WAY advocating that. I think all of the brands have nice canopies, and I have jumped many of them.

[Zenister 0]

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Your loading is a natural advantage and I don't really have an answer for that one,

if you want the loading there is always the meat and potatoes option available to everyone

I'd never considered this entire question before.. and while it is only an issue for the very upper tiers it is along the exact same reasons i dont care for NASCAR... how much of it (at that level) is the pilot and how much of it is the wing??

I'd LOVE to watch an 'issue you your canopy' comp.. where everyone flies the EXACT same wing at their preferred wingloading... just to see how 'level' the playing field can be...

ofc for freestyle perhaps that doesnt make so much sense... but the fewer variables between competitors, the better the competition IMO...

____________________________________
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

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I'd rather have a polished product at the end, which has a much lesser chance of being the next 'Nova'

that is a very BOLD statement Ian.

Huh? Just saying I've done the 'testing' stuff before and didn't like it much - remember all the line/trim changes that I was messing with?

It's a pretty simple statement. I want good R&D and I'd rather have someone else be the test pilot until the major kinks are worked out.

Blues,
Ian

maybe I misunderstood what you meant then... now that I look at it again, I think that is what I did.. I think it was because of the "NOVA" statement. did you ever jump one? I am sure you have just heard stories, and you know how stories go.

I read it as, you were saying that other companies, except for P.D., put there product out there and the jumpers do the testing. and P.D. products are already tested...

I look at it again and I believe I read it wrong..

[Spizzzarko 0]

I read it as, you were saying that other companies, except for P.D., put there product out there and the jumpers do the testing. and P.D. products are already tested...



I'm sure PD does quite a bit of testing but I'm sure they have also released things with known "characteristics" Look at the original sabre. Did it notoriously open hard? Is that something you want to unleash on the public?

What about the crossfire one? Did they know that it would collapse in front riser input with turbulance?

I'm sure these things may have been unknown but it sucks to be a test jumper.

[masterrigger1 2]

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I'm sure PD does quite a bit of testing but I'm sure they have also released things with known "characteristics" Look at the original sabre. Did it notoriously open hard? Is that something you want to unleash on the public?

There are always some issues with canopies.

For example, just look at the hard opening posts and past incidents regarding the Sabre 2.

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What about the crossfire one? Did they know that it would collapse in front riser input with turbulance?

Only the ones that were built out of tolerance, i.e. incorrectly basically.

That reflects improper manufacturing, not inferior design problems.

The same held true for the Nova. Manufacturing techniques and material degragration (Spectra shrikage) were the culprits there.

Everyone is a test jumper on every single jump!

Ever jump a brand new canopy?

I hear what you are saying, but I compare hard core swoopers to race car drivers.

You want the badest, fastest, most recent improvments out there. Something no one else has!

The only way you can get that is to be the first to have and jump it.


Think about it..........?!?


Cheers,
MEL

Skyworks Parachute Service, LLC
www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com

[ast4711 0]

Your ideas Intermediate, Advanced, Open Class.....

First of all: I am in now way somebody who ever attended a swoop-contest, nor do I think I may participate in one someday...

But I constantly look at this scene with interest - maybe as someone who looks formula-one from his sofa.

For me, your ideas would make sense, because I understand the idea that someone who is not heavily sponsored and has access to the newest mods and toys, but is also talented needs to have a chance to compete in a fair environment!

Otherwise... IF somebody is highly talented - how "easy" could this guy step up to the factory teams with their 1st class equippment?

just my thought....
alex

--
www.tandemmaster.net
www.skydivegear.de

[CanuckInUSA 0]

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Intermediate, Advanced, Open Class

These are good ideas. We already have the intermediate swoopers in the CPC. What we need is to segregate the Advanced and Open people on the PST. They can compete at the same comps, but preferably the Open Class would be on the same loads with each other so that they have the same weather conditions (as much as we can try and control the weather). The challenge probably falls in the how many people who do compete on the PST now would be interested in Open and how many would remain in Advanced? I know I don't belong in the Open Class but I am curious how many PSTers would prefer to be in the Open Class if the prize money migrated from the current PST prize purse and into mainly the Open Class. I know I don't compete for the money (mainly because I am not good enough to win any when I compete against the best), but we know the money does motivate those who are good enough to place well at these events.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[Bolas 5]

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Swooping is and has been growing up in that regard. The weight restrictions is a bit like having restricter plates on the carbs for instance.
...

The fix back in the 60s were to require a production run of a car to be allowed in stock car racing. That resulted in 1500-ish car productions runs. Maybe a similar rule would help this situation. Obviously in smaller numbers, but the same concept. Have a 100 canopy production run that is available to the public to be allowed in a "stock" class of canopies.

If you haven't heard of this a little reading on the internet about stock car racing will show you many similarities to the arguments being made. Start with the Plymouth Superbird (its a car) and go from there.

I think it's a good idea, just gotta bust on ya comparing swooping to stock car/NASCAR.

Chase for the PST cup
Canopy of tomorrow.
Ignoring chow flags and continuing to swoop

You're wandering all over the swoop lane!
Yeah, well this son of a bitch just slammed into me.
No, no, he didn't slam you, he didn't bump you, he didn't nudge you... he *bumped endsails with* you. And bumpin, son, is swoopin'.



Okay, redneck humor over. Carry on everyone.

Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.