FORUM BENEFIT

[chachi 0]

after reading the now locked thread of the jumper wishing to gain information on the difference between his old stilletto and his new xfire i wonder what most people think the benefit to the forums are. i personally think most use it to display there poor knowledge of canopies while inflating their need to police the populace because his original question was right on the money for what he should be asking.

"Moving from a Stiletto 150 to a Crossfire 1 139. Anyone made this transition? Any thoughts on what to expect for major differences? Any neat excercises to practice on the new canopy?"

in fact after i bought my new jvx i asked stu the same question as i know he spent time on a vx, the same canopy i was transitioning from.

sticking to our current example we have one jumper passing on useful characteristical information while passing on suspect to say the least judgemental information. on the other side we have mostly opinions and statements on the ability of the canopy pilot to stay safe or lack of ability. how does this benefit the pilot needing information.

how would have i handled it? i would have told the jumper all the charateristic differences that i could, as i have jumped both. i would have given an honest no shit advice on the need to get as much coaching as possible, talk to the best examples of consistent swoopers at his dz, do the hop 'n pops / high pulls, and to now consider that everything is going to happen MUCH faster and he will need to be aware of that. i would also tell him that high performace canopies will kill you no matter how lightly loaded or whether or not they stay away from the front riser or not. i mean really, he is buying this canopy to pull on the fronts. what more can you do on the internet?

let's be honest with ourselves. the people coming in with these questions have already made their decisions. decisions that are going to be public knowledge by his dz (and probably S&TA), their friends, and their past instructors. who do you think you are going to accomplish coming in and telling someone they are not competent in this adult sport over the internet. very little i would imagine. so what would most benefit the jumper? information. pure and simple.

my last piece of advice to anyone that reads this is that the swooping game is best not dabbled in. you will notice that all the best canopy pilots are total canopy pigs on most of their non working jumps. if you want to light up those landings i don't think you can "play" around and think you will stay safe, get consistant, and not potentially be a danger to yourself and others. people think because they use the canopy on every jump that it is the same as dedicating yourself to learning to freefly / wingsuit, RW, and the skill will just come. the ground will eventually catch up. while all the best pilots were canopy downsizing mavericks (including myself, a maverick not the best) i think the dedication is what kept these guys from becoming pancakes.

would love to read any constructive criticism. trolls be gone.

[ianmdrennan 2]

A well thought out post and you bring valid points.

I think the purpose of this forum is to continue to educate ourselves in the canopy piloting arena (swoop or otherwise).

To do so we have to accept that sometimes we're going to hear things we don't want to when people question our choices. As abrasive as it may come across sometimes, I believe most people have others safety at heart. Unfortunately, as you note, we have limited knowledge of the people involved...what their skill is, etc. With that in mind you'll find that most people err on the side of caution.....not a bad thing I think.

Additionally, while people come here (and I'd like to see if continue) for advise and questions, most (if not all) can be answered face to face at the dz. My guess is a lot of the inflamatory posts are because the people are fishing for the answers they want...not the answers they already have.

Still, I'd encourage people to continue voicing their questions and concerns. Both have a valid place in this forum.

Blues,
Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[AggieDave 6]

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My guess is a lot of the inflamatory posts are because the people are fishing for the answers they want...not the answers they already have.

Ding, we have a winner!

Basically people have been told time and time again that their choices are wrong by the people around them at their DZ. Then they come here and want support. That's BS and will get someone hurt.

If someone is ready for a HP canopy, especially if they're coming from another HP canopy (as it was in this last case) then they shouldn't need advice on how a canopy turns or flares. They should be able to do some altitude clear and pulls and figure the canopy out doing their own drill dives to start learning the canopy.

Ian, I bet you have a set of drills you do with a new canopy to figure out the different flight characteristics of a new canopy, right? I know I do and that in a couple of jumps I can have a pretty good idea of what I can and can't do with a canopy (in terms of flare, stalls, risers, harness). Not to say I've got the canopy dialed in by any stretch of the imagination, but I can start working on that safely.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[chachi 0]

thanks for the comments ian.

while i think that most people have everyones "best" interest at heart i think the most beneficial thing would be to stick to what people are asking if you want to be helpful. "do you think i should do this" is a great place to offer your opinion on skill levels, or just things to keep in mind. "how can i best transition to this canopy" is not a good place to speculate on skill level.

when we can't discern where to give information and where to give advice we blur the lines of communication for people and it turns into a free for all. especially when the advice / information lines are already muddled when at 1000 jumps some people are a great source of canopy information and at 800 jumps others can barely follow a pattern and may have a poor perspective.

i am not trying to stop people from soliciting information online. not ever. i have learned plenty by knowing where to go online for good information on the specific thing i have a question about. is that only because i have proved myself under a xbrace that i don't have to wade through the crap? or because i know people? i would like it to be made easier for people to get the useful inofrmation for their skill level without being told no. being told no in this sport doesn't work so maybe we should all stcik to what people are looking for and we will all benefit.

[chachi 0]

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My guess is a lot of the inflamatory posts are because the people are fishing for the answers they want...not the answers they already have.

Ding, we have a winner!

Basically people have been told time and time again that their choices are wrong by the people around them at their DZ. Then they come here and want support. That's BS and will get someone hurt.

If someone is ready for a HP canopy, especially if they're coming from another HP canopy (as it was in this last case) then they shouldn't need advice on how a canopy turns or flares. They should be able to do some altitude clear and pulls and figure the canopy out doing their own drill dives to start learning the canopy.

Ian, I bet you have a set of drills you do with a new canopy to figure out the different flight characteristics of a new canopy, right? I know I do and that in a couple of jumps I can have a pretty good idea of what I can and can't do with a canopy (in terms of flare, stalls, risers, harness). Not to say I've got the canopy dialed in by any stretch of the imagination, but I can start working on that safely.

an interesting thought pattern aggiedave. so you think in a sport where people pay 10's of thousands of dollars to particpate that you should be the judge of who should and shouldn't receive good helpful information?

get it straight, most aren't looking for your approval to make them feel good about their decisions they are looking for the information to actually get better, and now to prove you wrong.

now i consider myself a competent xbrace pilot dave and i thought to ask someone about the the characteristics about the canopy i was getting myself into. does that make me poorly skilled and mean i should have stuck to my vx94 instead of getting a jvx87? do you think i should have "known" exactly what to expect? the previous poster was not asking about how the canopy turned and flared he wanted the entire performance envelope and maybe some good drills to get better. see the difference? in any case, how should he "know" things. we as humans "learn" skills.

what i am trying to say is that you are not in a position to judge skill over the internet. fuck, you all would have freaked out at my progression and i would have made the same comment our poster did which was that he had already made a decision and wasn't looking for your permission. just maybe some help to learn all he can and grow and survive.

while my post may seem biting aggie, i am not being flippant with you. i am just trying to say that maybe we need to evaluate what people are asking us and phrase our responses to be as helpful as possible if we really do have everyones "best" interests at heart.

[AggieDave 6]

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get it straight, most aren't looking for your approval to make them feel good about their decisions they are looking for the information to actually get better, and now to prove you wrong.

Fine.

Basically it comes down to where I was when I had 100-500 jumps. I was doing the same thing that so many other people are doing. I knew what I wanted to do and everyone else be damned, I knew what I should do. I came through that experience out of pure luck. I learned from it too. Firstly, I learned I should have had a much slower canopy progression, it would have made me a much better canopy pilot. Secondly I learned that people shouldn't have to depend on luck to be safe on a canopy. Luck doesn't always work, hence all the deaths and injuries we've had.

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what i am trying to say is that you are not in a position to judge skill over the internet.

Maybe you haven't noticed over the past few years that a large majority of my posts contain "talk to your instructors" or "talk to your local canopy pilots" or something similar? There are some warning sign type situations, 300 jumps and a XF loaded up is a warning sign, for instance.

The thread that got you all worked up, go back and read my post to the thread. Tell me where I unjustly judged the poster. Go look. Go read it. Tell me if it wasn't sound advice.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[chachi 0]

holy eff, you're quite the little busy bee typist. :P

i am going to answer both your comment because it really goes to what i am speaking on.

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Fine.

Basically it comes down to where I was when I had 100-500 jumps. I was doing the same thing that so many other people are doing. I knew what I wanted to do and everyone else be damned, I knew what I should do. I came through that experience out of pure luck. I learned from it too. Firstly, I learned I should have had a much slower canopy progression, it would have made me a much better canopy pilot. Secondly I learned that people shouldn't have to depend on luck to be safe on a canopy. Luck doesn't always work, hence all the deaths and injuries we've had.

what about all the pilots that learn much faster than you? where do they fit in? i bet it would shock you to know my progression rate.

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Maybe you haven't noticed over the past few years that a large majority of my posts contain "talk to your instructors" or "talk to your local canopy pilots" or something similar? There are some warning sign type situations, 300 jumps and a XF loaded up is a warning sign, for instance.

The thread that got you all worked up, go back and read my post to the thread. Tell me where I unjustly judged the poster. Go look. Go read it. Tell me if it wasn't sound advice.

i can't honestly say that i have noticed your particular advice and what you offered in that post seemed fine. however, your opinion to my post is very much like you have priveledged information and if someone phrases a question wrong or you think they are not up to snuff then all they should get is a warning and not the "goods"

my entire point to this thread was to maybe offer less judgement and as much useful information or "educate" as much as possible. that is what will keep people safer, and learning faster.

[airborne82nd 0]

Ok this is what you guys still dont understand.

When people ask me medical advice i give them an answer, the answer comes from my training, experience, and say statistics. I answer their question. based on what I know.

Here the opinions are very subjective some of you old timers ( and i am 38 ) i mean jump numbers learned of the old school way. getting an objective opinion is very hard most of you are stuck in your mind set and your experience and your canopy progression.

I still remeber as i did my first tandem at lake wales the sign said no hook turns and that was 11 years ago.

I saw people Hooking diablo 99's at like 150 ft ( i dont know for sure ) wow has everything changed and keeps changing.

many of you incredibly skilled folks are loading velocitys at 2.2 or so, to me thats like flying to the moon i can not believe it and i cant ever see me there. my goal is 5 years a crossbraced but i doubt il make it in comfort or skill level. ( I raced motocross and was in karate but never placed in any major races or tournaments ) so i am no Michael jordon in respect to moto cross or katrate. you guys are michael jordons of swoop, and in skydiving almost anything is possible if you have the time and jump numbers ( thats why i love this sport )

you guys are awesome at what you do and i am a baby swooper working to get better safely. Mostly you guys give great advice but to often many of you feel its out of turn for other jumpers to even raise their voice or their hand in class. some of us are very smaart people and can share their experinces. many of you old timers want to silence some of us from sharing. You guys think your way is the only way and the more jump numbers you have the more right you are.

I ask lots of questions and had them answered and i am a genius but i also have a hard time understand ing some things also. so i know what i know and i ask when i dont know. I never bragg about what i can do becuase compared to you guys i cant do a 10th of what you do. but damn it when i know something i speak up.

if i have 100 crossfire jumps i would say thats a fair amount of jumps to comment on the canopy, yes 1000 jumps is more but does it take 1000 jumps to know a crossfire???

It took me a few jumps on the katana and fx to know that they were way beyond my skill level.

so when i share that opinion hey the katana scared the shit out of me and here is why. i may not be an expert on the katana but ill tell you why it scared the hell out of me. and i can share that with out someone trying to pick apart everylittle detail apart.

agggie dave your a great example of the wrong thinking, and i say this to you even though you give great advice and have lots of experience. You think people ask questions here becuase the answer is no at their dz? now that is rediculous to even present that.

at my dz there are 3 of us on crossfires. 2 cobalts, 1 mamaba, 3 vision, a bunch of diablos and others. not one person is on a crossbrace canopy, no one knows much about swooping but what they picked up and mention brian germain and people are like huh?? i go to other dz's to demo canopys. other dz's where swoopers are you ask them a question and they are like i dont know i just do this or that.

thats the problem alot of dropzones you get what ever the consensous is like oh we are a pd dropzone or a aerodyne ect.. menntion another canopy and you dare be burned at the stake.

bring a crossfire to your dz and they want to attack it with rakes and throw it in the bomb fire.

we come here since this is the greatset concentration of swoopers in one place who knows you get the facts and you get expereince level opinions. there is a wealth of knowledge here adn many people are trying to tap into it.

give the answer and add your disclaimer and try not to sound so condensending and high and mighty and i belive knowledge is power. i am living proof of these forums helping expand my skills and knowledge.

but all opinions are valuable everyones experinces are different and the guy with 300 jumps who shared his knowledge helped me out way more then the skygod with 2000 who was a dick in the forum.

one more thing stop demanding respect due to your jump numbers and thinking everyone should agree with you and respect others opinions. and stop splitting hairs just to be an ass, you know the jist of someones post dont take what they say out of content just to say gotcha. and dont be so surprised when you are an ass to someone and they give it right back what do you expect.

this sport is rapidly changing and people are swooping at younger and younger jumps. remeber just a few years ago people were hook turning and now look and where will this sport go, i cant imagine.

I will continue to ask many questions and i wil answer the ones i know and share my experience with the disclaimer hey i have this many jumps and this many with this canopy and i am at this level so take that for what its worth /// and they can fox news it they report you decide ect...

stop trying to cut everyones answer up into pieces if you have another opinion then just share it no need to be an ass.

i myself will be at 1000 jumps in a bout a year Lord wiilling and there is no way i will be on a xbraced, but i have all the time and the years to get there i am in no rush. I will progress till i cant progress no more, with many of your help i have got this far.

You guys here help people more then you know so stop being ass's and share your knowledge ina no offensive condesending manor. Most of you have so much to offer us, infact we all can answer each others questions and no harm on debating either

[marks 0]

I have to say, I think your evaluation between the cf2 and stiletto is fair, even with the katana, but just in the sense that the control range/ stroke is longer and less aggressive than the other two. but I will also tell you a cf2, with a competent pilot, will usually outswoop a stiletto..

I also agree that the cf2 has a less "twitchy" feel to it. but I disagree that it wont spin you. what I will agree on is the fact that it will take longer, (not by much) for the spin to get going.

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give the answer and add your disclaimer and try not to sound so condensending and high and mighty and i belive knowledge is power. i am living proof of these forums helping expand my skills and knowledge.

but all opinions are valuable everyones experinces are different and the guy with 300 jumps who shared his knowledge helped me out way more then the skygod with 2000 who was a dick in the forum.

one more thing stop demanding respect due to your jump numbers and thinking everyone should agree with you and respect others opinions. and stop splitting hairs just to be an ass, you know the jist of someones post dont take what they say out of content just to say gotcha. and dont be so surprised when you are an ass to someone and they give it right back what do you expect.

you should really listen to yourself, seriously.

[bliston 0]

There's been a shift in the RW world that I think is worth sharing here. More people have learned to love and gotten better at competitive 4-way and 8-way in recent years. This, in part, is a result of caring guidance, thoughtful and well delivered constructive criticism, and approachable role models - and a decrease in brash criticism and instruction (sometimes thought of as the "skygod" mentality - though I wouldn't use the term to describe folks here). Before anyone jumps to the defense of "we're talking about life and death in advanced canopy flight, not a funneled exit" hear me out.

Any person who considers themselves to be, or aspires to be, a leader in our sport (or a specific discipline within our sport) should ask themselves this question: Do I carry myself and respond to questions in way that will makes people still want to approach me for advice, continue to respect me, and make them feel like I respect them even if I'm giving them information that is critical of their performance or not what they want to hear? If the answer is no even some of the time, it's something you should work on... you may be unknowingly shutting the door on a future question. The answer to which might save someone's femur or life.

My words are grounded in a Masters in Education from Harvard, a long history of coaching athletics, and a sucessful few years of helping new and seasoned jumpers appreciate and improve their skills in my choosen discipline.

I love flying my canopy fast and accurate, am intrigued by and interest in shifting to a higher performance wing, but I have been hesitant to post in this forum... although I read it all the time. I'm not saying you all shouldn't say the things you say, just that you should consider how you deliver information.

Food for thought: If the overarching goals for the discipline of canopy piloting is to encourage people to ask questions and learn, to help everyone fly safely in the same sky regardless of what type and size canopy they choose to use, and get the respect you deserve for pushing the limits of our sport in a new direction - how should you converse with people on line, in person, and how should you carry yourself?

Sometimes people hear what you're saying better when you whisper rather than yell.

Ben

Mass Defiance 4-wayFS website


sticks!

[pr0ject42 0]

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There's been a shift in the RW world that I think is worth sharing here. More people have learned to love and gotten better at competitive 4-way and 8-way in recent years. This, in part, is a result of caring guidance, thoughtful and well delivered constructive criticism, and approachable role models - and a decrease in brash criticism and instruction (sometimes thought of as the "skygod" mentality - though I wouldn't use the term to describe folks here). Before anyone jumps to the defense of "we're talking about life and death in advanced canopy flight, not a funneled exit" hear me out.

Hey Ben, do you think the onslaught of tunnels have had anything to do with the recent rather dramatic rise in RW and freefall skill in general?

I agree though, a positive environment is much more beneficial to improvement, but that goes back to basic child psychology and positive vs. negative reinforcement.

[bliston 0]

hah! maybe you're right about the tunnels making the people that are into RW better at it, but just that fact that interest in RW is still growing and new jumpers are drawn to the discipline speaks volumes about the RW community...

Mass Defiance 4-wayFS website


sticks!

[Vectracide 0]

This has what to do with the topic? Please keep comments on this matter to the topic at hand, as it is too important to derail. it would be greatly appreciated.

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Controlled and Deliberate.....

[Remster 24]

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This has what to do with the topic? Please keep comments on this matter to the topic at hand, as it is too important to derail. it would be greatly appreciated.

If you dont get it, re-read his post....

Remster

[Vectracide 0]

Yes, I understand what he was trying to convey, and I got it...not that I totally agree with it, as I thought Chachi did a good job conveying his message. Am I missing something here? Was the refererence to the thread that got locked?

I was just trying to keep on topic, that's all, but perhaps...I am not getting an analogy here....

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Controlled and Deliberate.....

[matt3sa 0]

Chachi and Airborne,

Glad to see that you folks at least understand my position. To the people that are implying that I'm searching for the answer I want to hear......

I jump at a C-182 dropzone. We have one tandem master with about 4000 jumps. He also owns the business. I learned via the old school static line method. The primary instructors (two total) are in their 50's and they've jumped sabre 170's all their lives. They have no intentions of progressing. They don't swoop and they play it safe. They've provided a wonderful source of information. I've learned to skydive in a very safe environment where I constantly had one on one attention. I think Airborne said it best when he stated that some of us don't have any mentors at our dz's with this type of experience. The folks at my dz see that I have a fast learning curve and they support my canopy decision. We are only able to jump from April to October, and I feel like I've been as persistent and diligent as possible with 310 jumps and a coach rating from Jay Stokes as I'm only able to jump a C-182 from April to October. At the beginning of this season I had 118 jumps... now I have 310. Does this paint a better picture? Chachi made an excellent point when he mentioned that I had asked for canopy characteristic specifics. It wasn't a "should I" question. I've already made my decision. I don't feel like I should have to justify why. Now that you folks hopefully understand my position better, I hope you will be more analytical of "how" and why you are communicating the information. I'm a very humble person and I think that you can learn something from everyone. Thank you all for taking to time to allow me to share my thoughts.

Blue Skies,
Matt

[dharma1976 0]

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Chachi and Airborne,

Glad to see that you folks at least understand my position. To the people that are implying that I'm searching for the answer I want to hear......

I jump at a C-182 dropzone. We have one tandem master with about 4000 jumps. He also owns the business. I learned via the old school static line method. The primary instructors (two total) are in their 50's and they've jumped sabre 170's all their lives. They have no intentions of progressing. They don't swoop and they play it safe. They've provided a wonderful source of information. I've learned to skydive in a very safe environment where I constantly had one on one attention. I think Airborne said it best when he stated that some of us don't have any mentors at our dz's with this type of experience. The folks at my dz see that I have a fast learning curve and they support my canopy decision. We are only able to jump from April to October, and I feel like I've been as persistent and diligent as possible with 310 jumps and a coach rating from Jay Stokes as I'm only able to jump a C-182 from April to October. At the beginning of this season I had 118 jumps... now I have 310. Does this paint a better picture? Chachi made an excellent point when he mentioned that I had asked for canopy characteristic specifics. It wasn't a "should I" question. I've already made my decision. I don't feel like I should have to justify why. Now that you folks hopefully understand my position better, I hope you will be more analytical of "how" and why you are communicating the information. I'm a very humble person and I think that you can learn something from everyone. Thank you all for taking to time to allow me to share my thoughts.

Blue Skies,
Matt

Dude I understand your position...

I have been your position

I have even offered to talk canopy piloting with you in person...

come to the ranch and hang out this or next weekend look me up my name is dave holm

Cheers

Dave

http://www.skyjunky.com

CSpenceFLY - I can't believe the number of people willing to bet their life on someone else doing the right thing.

[icevideot 0]

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the people coming in with these questions have already made their decisions. decisions that are going to be public knowledge by his dz (and probably S&TA), their friends, and their past instructors.

You make a very valid point. Once the equipment is in hand or the decision has been made there is nothing to gain by withholding guidance or advice. The other side of this is that these posts may effect the choices of other new jumpers who haven't yet decided to make the ill advised progression.

What I will tell individual people is not necessarily the same advice I would give some of the really ambitious new jumpers I see every weekend. There is a lot of potential with these new guys and it isn't uncommon for me to be amazed at their progress. These successes can also pave the way for over confidence and some poor decisions that many would say are inevitable. I made my share and I suspect you did as well.

Some canopies and progressions are more forgiving than others. For those who want to take the learning curve to such a steep level maybe getting good coaching and/or a competent mentor isn't really an option. Maybe it is needed and then they can get much more personal and accurate advice and come back here and share with me what they learned. I would be eager to read about it.

I really think you make several good points but I don't think you are considering the wider reaching impact on young "mavericks" who really are looking for someone to tell them it is okay to downsize quicker because they are smarter than we were and todays wings are so much more efficient. I like to land fast for my own enjoyment but I can't claim to be much of a swooper. I have however survived some poor decisions that needlessly endangered my life. Sometimes answering questions without pointing out the risks associated can be seen as an endorsement of this kind of decision.

I can see you think about what you say and I hope the rest of us do as well. I am sorry if I am sometimes too short or others are too sensitive but I will assure you I mean no harm. The life you save could be mine.

"... this ain't a Nerf world."

[SkymonkeyONE 3]

The forums offer tremendous benefit to those of us savy enough to wade through the one liners and read the well-thought-out posts from truly experienced jumpers. They are easy to spot in my opinion. I don't think there has been a single question about canopy piloting that has not been answered at least a dozen times. Using the search function definitely helps. Knowing who's posts to ignore helps alot as well.

Simply shooting me a PM will get you an honest-to-god straight answer or opinion on anything I have landed under in my twenty-six years of jumping (well, as of the 24th of this month anyway).

Chuck

[Tonto 1]

Chuck, you old dog! Roll over and die already!

(Says young dog T coming up on 22 years in the sport in 24 days..)

Clearly you never read this post..

Here the opinions are very subjective some of you old timers ( and i am 38 ) i mean jump numbers learned of the old school way. getting an objective opinion is very hard most of you are stuck in your mind set and your experience and your canopy progression.

See? We can't help. We're too old, and our experience simply isn't valid anymore.

Ah well. I guess I'll just keep trying to learn a few new tricks this year, and maybe help one or two people who don't mind listening.

t

It's the year of the Pig.