PD Reserve wingloading 2:1 and higher

[frost 1]

Does anyone here have a full time rig with a PD reserve loaded at 2 to 1? Have you actually flown it? How did it feel? Any concerns, worries etc.?

[divnswoop 0]

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Does anyone here have a full time rig with a PD reserve loaded at 2 to 1? Have you actually flown it? How did it feel? Any concerns, worries etc.?

One at 1.9 and the other at 2.1. Flew great and had a nice flare on a hot no-wind day. Concerns? un-conscious cypres fire, landing while partially incompacitated, low reserve deployment without landing area options, and the list goes on. That's why I am looking forward to the announcement soon! (then upsize to a 143 or bigger)

[pr0ject42 0]

What "announcement"?

[Canuck 0]

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What "announcement"?

I'll take a guess that he means the announcement of the release of the PD reserves made from the new fabric that has about two thirds the pack volume of F-111 (although I'm not holding my breath - especially considering the company who was manufacturing that fabric went out of business).

Canuck

[arlo 0]

really? sounds like you might have some insight on this one. i heard it might be alot sooner than you think, but who really knows..

either way, the thought of people being able to upsize their reserve and still be able to keep their uber-small rigs is music to my ears.

[cpoxon 0]

John LeBlanc was jumping a 143 reserve, made out of this special material, as a main at Spa in Belgium last week. He said it packed as small as his 90 (Velocity?) and fit inside his Power Racer. It did look very small bagged. I asked him about the collapse of Perserverance Mills and he said, "You didn't think we'd put all of our eggs in one basket, did you?"

Skydiving Fatalities - Cease not to learn 'til thou cease to live

[arlo 0]

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"You didn't think we'd put all of our eggs in one basket, did you?"

ding ding.

[Tonto 1]

I'll wait 20 years to see how it works out.

If I've learned one thing in skydiving, it's don't be the 1st kid on the block with new toys. (Think Reflex Catapult, early cypres, early vigil, early neptune, Nova, reverse risers, etc, etc.)

I would expect my reserve technology to have been jumped as a main for a long time. I have nearly 1000 dives on F-111 type fabric 7 cells as main canopies. I like that when flying my reserve.

Or maybe I'm just happy with my PD 126R.

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[cpoxon 0]

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I would expect my reserve technology to have been jumped as a main for a long time.

Is that going to happen in today's market? John said to me that the material was more durable than exisiting F111 but I doubt it would compare with zero porosity. People usually buy a main primarily for it's flying performance rather than it's pack volume so why would they want something that isn't going to last for 1000 jumps.

They only people who are going to be putting a significant number of jumps onto these canopies are PD's test jumpers, even after they are released. Do you not trust PD?

What is riskier, overloading a well proven reserve or correctly-loading a less proven one?

Skydiving Fatalities - Cease not to learn 'til thou cease to live

[Tonto 1]

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What is riskier, overloading a well proven reserve or correctly-loading a less proven one?

I don't think what I'm loading my reserve at is overloading, so that question doesn't apply to me. I'm well under the total weight of 254lbs with gear, and I'm loading it lower than I load either of my mains and have had no difficulty landing them, even at my hot, high altitude DZ.

Have you considered a dual canopy situation? I've attached the report for your perusal. It's worth considering. The large Reserve/small main is NOT a recomended config.

As for trusting PD, of course I trust them. 3 of my 4 canopies (2 of which are reserves) are made by PD. Adopting a "wait and see" attitude when I don't need to change yet, is prudent and has nothing to do with trust. In 20 years time, I may trust them even more.

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[Spizzzarko 0]

I load my 113R at 2.0 and jump up here in CO. I have landed it at 6500' field elevation no wind and hot, and 5500' no wind and hot. It fly's nicely and lands very nicely. I would not jump another reserve type. I do not think that I will be so hot to trot when PD does release their small packing reserves, as I like to have other people do my test jumping for me, but the PD 113R is tried and true, and I can vouch for it. The two out situation is a definate draw back to the bigger reserve smaller main issue but if you are smart you probably will not face that situation very much. I'm sure most of us are bumping our decision altitudes up as our main square footage goes down. Face it there is nothing gained by being in freefall below 3k with a small main. So if PD does release the super small packing reserves maybe it would be a good thing. I certainly would love the option of having a 143R or bigger, but again I'm going to let other people do some test jumping for me. I'm sure when PD releases a product that they have put much thought and testing into it, but I would like to see what people other than factory reps have to say about it. That is all.

[frost 1]

Thank you divnswoop and Spizzzarko !

Another option for those who are like me are concerned with high reserve wing loading is to demo it. I will be ordering a demo 113-R to jump it as a main a few times, just to know what to expect.

Of course there are other important concerns with a small highly loaded reserve like divnswoop said. Dual canopies out is also a major one... but i guess those are the extra risks we're willing to take? I'm a little scared

SoFPiDaRF - School of Fast Progress in Downsizing and Radical Flying. Because nobody knows your skills better than you.

[AggieDave 6]

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Of course there are other important concerns with a small highly loaded reserve like divnswoop said. Dual canopies out is also a major one... but i guess those are the extra risks we're willing to take?

I had plans on downsizing my reserve from my trusty PDr-176 since I've got a small (for me) X-braced ordered. Then Mariann's fatality happened and I started thinking about having just a little more fabric out there may not be such a bad idea. Then again, I am loading my PDr-176 at around 1.6:1.

PD's dual out really didn't test large reserve and super small main. Derek V's tests did. His findings really didn't give me any reason to be real worried about matching main and reserve sizes.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[frost 1]

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Derek V's tests did. His findings really didn't give me any reason to be real worried about matching main and reserve sizes.

Any idea where i can find info on that?

[AggieDave 6]

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Any idea where i can find info on that?

Parts of his findings have been posted over the years, he's Hooknswoop on the forums. Beyond that you might want to PM him, see if he'll post a complete article on the findings in the swooping forum.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[frost 1]

cool, thanks! i'll PM him

[Spizzzarko 0]

Your welcome. I think you will find landing the 113r a non issue. If you can fly a small main then you can fly a small reserve. Demoing the reserve is a good idea, and I do not think enough people actually do it. The issue that you really don't want is to go from a spinning line twisted main to a small line twisted reserve. Maybe the sky hook can help this out, or ensuring that you are stable before deploying the reserve. I have not had line twists on my 113R.

Maybe a bigger reserve could have helped marrianne out, but there are a lot of questions that are still un answered on that one. Either way it was a shitty situation.

AS far as the dual out goes, just do your best to not let yourself get into that situation. If you are worried about firing a cypress in a hook turn then either get rid of the cypres or move to a speed model. More and more of us are going faster and farther, so this cypres situation can be an issue in the near future. The speed cypres will fire at 90+ mph, and I'm sure we are not going that except in freefall. Think about what the cypres is intended for...
1. To save you if you are unconscious
2. To save you if you are not altitude aware

In both of those situations I'm sure you will be falling above the firing speed as 90 is pretty slow for belly flyers. You freefly (freefly is mooth) freaks fall pretty fast anyways.

Another way to get two out is to pull low with the cypres. To fix this bumb up your decision and pull altitudes. If you pull by 3k then you will probably not be going fast enough to fire a cypres, or if you are in free fall below 2k just pull your reserve. This sounds a lot like a first jump course doesn't it. Funny how the basics will save you, and how we always come back around to them when we are facing a new delima of sorts. So have a good plan for emergency procedures and stick to your plan. We have rules so that we are not like the monkeys swinging in the trees flinging poop at each other. That is all.

[jheadley 0]

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The speed cypres will fire at 90+ mph, and I'm sure we are not going that except in freefall. Think about what the cypres is intended for...
1. To save you if you are unconscious
2. To save you if you are not altitude aware

In both of those situations I'm sure you will be falling above the firing speed as 90 is pretty slow for belly flyers. You freefly (freefly is mooth) freaks fall pretty fast anyways.

Do you think swooping will ever get to a point where one actually is going 90+ during a swoop? To me it seems like the speed CYPRES doesn't really solve the problem, it just gets rid of it for a little while. People used to think that nobody would ever get close enough to the activation speed of an AAD during a swoop, but eventually they did. With the progression of swooping and super high-performance canopies, won't the swoops just get faster and faster until even a speed CYPRES will fire during a swoop?

[Brains 2]

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The issue that you really don't want is to go from a spinning line twisted main to a small line twisted reserve. Maybe the sky hook can help this out, or ensuring that you are stable before deploying the reserve. I have not had line twists on my 113R.

I did just that on my Pdr113. I loaded mine at about 1.9 with full camera gear. I opened my reserve and had only one full twist in it. It flew stable and i kicked out. Just a crappy feeling to cut away from a nasty spinner and look up and see a twisted reserve too. It flew very nice and i even got a little swoop out of it. I upsized to a 126 now mostly for the worst case scenario of landing it unconscious or something.

Never look down on someone, unless they are going down on you.

[swooper81 0]

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Do you think swooping will ever get to a point where one actually is going 90+ during a swoop? To me it seems like the speed CYPRES doesn't really solve the problem, it just gets rid of it for a little while. People used to think that nobody would ever get close enough to the activation speed of an AAD during a swoop, but eventually they did. With the progression of swooping and super high-performance canopies, won't the swoops just get faster and faster until even a speed CYPRES will fire during a swoop?

a friend of mine has told me that some of the pro's in colorado last year for the go fast comp were entering the gates at 94-98mph. my friend himself has told me he's able to get his canopy going about 110mph in a dive as well, but i don't know if that was up high or in an actual swoop. at least i think that is what he said. PM superstu if you wanna know more.

[Spizzzarko 0]

Maybe eventually, but that day is further away right now. 90 MPH is pretty damn fast, but Jay Moledski did 90+ through the gates up here in Colorado last year to set his distance record. He was really weighted up though. With the weight restrictions in place now I really don't see that as being an issue as much any more. Although if you are really hauling ass and doing more than a 270 turn it may behove you to call SSK and chat with them about the speed cypres. I'm not trying to sell it, but the choice is up to you. The cypress is pretty intuitive though and there is logic programmed into it that tells it if you have a good canopy over your head. Eric at SSK can tell you more. The record of the cypres's that have fired is that of firing in a hook turn. They usually don't fire when you are planned out scooting over the ground. The vigil on the other hand has a tendancy to fire while standing still.... I'm just kidding, and I don't want to start a cypres vigil debate. That was only a joke so if you think that you need to say something back to defend the vigil go right ahead, but let me forwarn you that I really don't give a fuck about it.

[frost 1]

This post is more for those who might have a similar question later...

So i did demo the PD113R. Loaded at nearly 2.1:1 it flew great. Not docile by any means, but still very manageable and fun to fly. It was hooked up to regular mini risers so i even did a 180 front riser turn and swooped it, finishing on rears. Perhaps a high performance landing wasn't the best idea since a real reserve wont have the front loops and slider wont come down. or may be i'll ask my rigger to put front loops on reserve risers :)

So if you like me are concerned with how a highly loaded PD reserve will handle - dont worry, you'd be fine... If you still have concerns - DEMO IT! and see for yourself. just dont take it to terminal :)

[1234hutch 0]

My comment would be you are expecting the gear, (the reseve to )perform well beyond it's task

[jurgencamps 0]

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The speed cypres will fire at 90+ mph,...

Do you think swooping will ever get to a point where one actually is going 90+ during a swoop?

90+ vertical speed =/= 90+ horizontal speed.
Even if you go at 120 through the gates, I really hope that your vertical speed is (almost) zero at that moment

[brokky 4]

Just upsized last year from a pd126R to a 143.
I think the question is not if you can swoop your reserve or not. When you use the reserve, maybe you ended up lower than you expected under an open canopy ,with less options for an open landing area. Maybe you need to do a landing approach with less than full speed due to the small landing area.
Also,I know of 3 friends of mine that had to land a reserve with a dislocated shoulder.The lower loaded reserve is a much better option in this case.
But maybe it´s just me getting older...

wuk??

http://www.brunobrokken.com