Ok what canopy should i buy from this list

[airborne82nd 0]

Vengence 150

Crossfire 169

Vision 150

Nitron 150

Nitro 150

I am looking for the greatest lift, the most docile when it comes to spinning (No diablo or mamba spinners)

i guess longer recovery arch

light front riser pressure

best glide

something i can land easy, make it back from a long spot, and something i can dive and swoop intermediate canopy but also for begining swooping.

notice the crossfire is the 169 not 150

i am assuming that has the highest performaace

i am 182 right now my weight is very consistant.

and am i pussen out i know i am not loading these to hard but can i dive em and make them swoop???

ok which one is the best performer.

smallest thein i have jumped was a 135 sabre 2

[PhreeZone 15]

If you don't want a spinner then you should toss most those canopies off your list. You are going towards the more aggressive side of the scale in all reguards with the canopies you have listed.

What is wrong with a Pilot or a Sabre2 if you are wanting a good swoop canopy that does'nt spin fast?

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[johnny1488 1]

Most canopies are not "spinners". I know people woth thousands of jumps on "spinner" canopies with no cutaways. You learn to fly openings just like you learn to fly the canopy.

You should jump the canopies and see which one you loke overall the best. I can sit here and tell you to buy a Xfire2, and then someone else can tell you why you need to buy a nitron, but it comes down to you. Get a hold of some of these canopies (if you are qualified to even jump them) and do some jumps.

From that list I would say the "safest" one would be the Xfire because it is the biggest, and size/wingloading is the single biggest factor in canopy performance.

Ohh, and its revocery ARC.

Johnny
--"This ain't no book club, we're all gonna die!"
Mike Rome

[airborne82nd 0]

i know they all spin i wanted to know which one is less touchy

i dont want diablo action ect..

sabre 2 is fine but i wanted something a step up on speed and dont want a stileto either both canopys are a bit outdated i know they are great but i am looking for a bit more

[nbblood 0]

I like the Vengeance from that list for longer recovery arc/lighter riser pressure (I have no experience with the Vision). However, I think it's also the one that's most likely to spin on opening. It really sounds to me like you're looking for a Sabre2.

Blues,
Nathan

If you wait 'til the last minute, it'll only take a minute.

[Fast 0]

Quote

i know they all spin i wanted to know which one is less touchy

i dont want diablo action ect..

sabre 2 is fine but i wanted something a step up on speed and dont want a stileto either both canopys are a bit outdated i know they are great but i am looking for a bit more

If you want an honest answer from people on this please answer the following.



Current Number of jumps?
Number of jumps that were full altitude hop'n'pops?
Number of low altitude hop'n'pops?
Number of landings with double fronts?
Number of landings with speed inducing turns ranging from 0-90 degrees?
Number of landings with speed inducing turns ranging from 91-180 degrees?
Number of landings with turns greater than 180 degrees (how many as 270s?)


What was your canopy progression? In order, with number of jumps on each canopy...


Can you do each of the following on the smallest canopy that you wish to count towards your progession? Please answer yes or no?

* flat turn 90 degrees at 50 feet
* flare turn at least 45 degrees
* land crosswind and in no wind
* land reliably within a 10 meter circle
* land on slight uphills and downhills
* land with rear risers




Ok maybe thats too much to ask of you, but really what you are asking of us is too much too! We have no way to know what you are capable of unless we see you land. You say you have jumped a saber2 135. That canopy is BY FAR faster in overall speed, faster in turning, and would swoop longer than any canopy you have listed above. That is, if you have the skill to make it happen.

Swooping is NOT about the canopy, it is about the pilot in comand of the canopy. I really think you need to learn some more about what makes a canopy fast or swoopy or whatever it is you think you want. Just a little learning will help so much more that a new canopy. I wont go on because you aren't going to listen to me.



If I had to pick a canopy from the above list I w/o any info on you I would pick the XF2 169 because its the biggest on that list.


Edit: Yep, I don't have that many more jumps that you do, the reason I am asking all these questions is because your coming on the internet to learn this stuff, and you haven't qualified why. When i started to learn swooping I found someone at my DZ who could teach me. I have been doing some kind of speed inducing manuver since jump 150 and make over 300 jumps a year. I am current and jump every weekend. Thats why I am comfortable on a XF2 139 @ 1.5 with 700 jumps. (Just thought I would point that out incase you look at my profile)

~D
Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me.
Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka

[airborne82nd 0]

i live 60 minutes between 5 dropzones in florida i get to jump year round

i have seen all the pd guys do there thing.

I know quite a bit about swooping. research, jumpers, freinds ect..

i have watched tony hathoway burn across the pond on a spectre 97 i think. i have seen pauly on a velocity 79 i guess carve with the wing on the ground and his ass sliding around.

funny those guys caan swoop anything.

now i am not at your level as far as swooping you are way ahead of me in jumps and canopy skills and as far as the sabre 135 i land it easily.

anther thing please dont speak for the group when you say us. i am asking anyone who has an opinion or knowledge. and can contribute.

you give good advise but you probly break all your own rules and never do as you say others to do.

my tech knowledge of swooping is very sound and i am way up to speed on swooping.

what i do not know is the individual flying characteristics of the canopys i have selected. andvantages of each and how that fits into my plan.

i have several people i am working with just as i did when i got into video.

I am not trying to go crazy here i am very conservative so go save the world for someone else i am not the idiot at the dz with 60 jumps and trying to swoop and kill him self so spare me. ( every dz has one of those )

the art of swooping to me is a beautiful technical artform i love it and i film it, read it, observe it, and get lots of feedback. i have a great respect for it i am pursuing it as an art and very slowly.

i know where i am and i know where i want to go. i am not aiming for the nickname like " fast "

Use your head look at my questions and the canopy i picked they are all at the begining for me and my skillls.

i am not posting questions like 7cell or 9 cell whats the difference i did that years ago.

so after 3 years hours of research and reading hunderds of these posts. i have selected 4-5 canopys that i have all watched fly all watched swoop and i have talked with all the owners. now i want to further my intimite understanding of each canopy and how it flys and see which one i would feel the most comfortable on.

as far as the diablo and stilletto they both are very spin happy at normal speed, i have direct experience to that. i also have seen the mamba and heard a few guys who jump velocitys that say that the mamba is super touchy.


I asked a very pointed & simple question, if you have anything to contribute relevent to the question of the canopys i have selected please feel free to contribute.

if not dont waste your time trying to preach to me. I dont need saving. I need info.

to those of you so kind to share your knowlege thanks.

my goals is to be on a velocity in maybe 6 years from now. with 1500 jumps. i think i have layed out a very conservative path to get there.

[vdschoor 0]

Quote

Vengence 150

Crossfire 169

Vision 150

Nitron 150

Nitro 150

I am looking for the greatest lift, the most docile when it comes to spinning (No diablo or mamba spinners)

i guess longer recovery arch

light front riser pressure

best glide

something i can land easy, make it back from a long spot, and something i can dive and swoop intermediate canopy but also for begining swooping.

[cut big part out]

smallest thein i have jumped was a 135 sabre 2

I would put the Nitron / Nitro in the same class as the Sabre2
The Vision, is a highly eliptical, more ground hungry than the Stiletto..
I can't comment on the Vengeance and the Crossfire, as I've never jumped either one of them.
I havent jumped the Crossfire cause there wasnt any available in my area in the size I wanted, and I havent jumped the Vengeance cause I didnt want an airlocked canopy anyways (probably a bad reason not to jump it.. but still)

Anyways..

going back to your question, I'd probably drop the Vision from that list..

Regarding the other two, the Nitro / Nitron, both are very nice canopies. The Nitro is a very sweet opening canopy, recovery arc about the same as the Sabre2 and overall flying characteristics are about the same too I would say, trim e.a.

Demo all of them, I stuck with Sabre2's and I've been extremely happy with the performance I got out of that canopy.. I jumped the Stiletto and never had the "crazy spinning" problems that are being talked about. I blame it on the fact that it was the most jumped canopy ever when it came out.. and so many people jumped it, which automatically makes for a lot of stories about the malfunctions...

It's similar to cars, there are so many crashes with onda Civics in the US, cause there are just shitloads of them around..

Demo the Nitro, Sabre2, and Nitron.. I think that's the class of canopy you are looking for..

[skinnyshrek 0]

get demos from all. The nitron is a direct copy of the nitro. PM beezyshaw on here and ask him to send you a demo of the NITRO. I jump that canopy and i love it. I jumped the sabre 2 also liked the canopy. Just didnt like the riser pressure.
The openings on the nitro are awesome. As for swooping. If your ever up near the farm i can show you some video of both the sabre2 and the nitro doing the pond.
At the end of the day. Each person prefers different canopies. If you are shooting video then definately the nitro

http://www.skydivethefarm.com

do you realize that when you critisize people you dont know over the internet, you become part of a growing society of twats? ARE YOU ONE OF THEM?

[Fast 0]

My Responses in bold...

Quote

i live 60 minutes between 5 dropzones in florida i get to jump year round

Thats awesome, thats a big advantage and not having to take 5 months off makes a big difference.

i have seen all the pd guys do there thing.

They are cool aren't they!!

I know quite a bit about swooping. research, jumpers, freinds ect..

Yep, the only thing I have to say about this is that seeing and doing are a big difference and I am sure you know that, experience makes everything that you have seen make sense.

i have watched tony hathoway burn across the pond on a spectre 97 i think. i have seen pauly on a velocity 79 i guess carve with the wing on the ground and his ass sliding around.

funny those guys caan swoop anything.

Yeah, lots of practice, I can't wait till I am that good, if I am ever that good...

now i am not at your level as far as swooping you are way ahead of me in jumps and canopy skills and as far as the sabre 135 i land it easily.

anther thing please dont speak for the group when you say us. i am asking anyone who has an opinion or knowledge. and can contribute.

My use of the word 'us' was more in a rhetorical sense, I wasn't trying to mean it literally, sorry for the misunderstanding

you give good advise but you probly break all your own rules and never do as you say others to do.

I don't do everything right, I have screwed up, done things I shouldn't have on purpose and gotten away with it, but I try to remember to keep that in check and do my best to stick to the advice that I give others. I like teaching and I try to "practice what I preach" to set a good example.

my tech knowledge of swooping is very sound and i am way up to speed on swooping.

Cool, I like to hear that, you just have come on asking some pointed questions that seem a little odd and have disregarded some suggestions of people who are much more knowledgeable than I am on this topic. That made me wonder a little bit. Thats why I asked you to at least give me (anyone reading) a better idea of your progression. It makes people more comfortable with suggesting something.

what i do not know is the individual flying characteristics of the canopys i have selected. andvantages of each and how that fits into my plan.

I wish I could give you first hand information on them all, the only canopy that you listed that I have enough jumps on to form any opinion is the crossfire 2.

i have several people i am working with just as i did when i got into video.

Cool, that makes a huge difference in how fast you can learn

I am not trying to go crazy here i am very conservative so go save the world for someone else i am not the idiot at the dz with 60 jumps and trying to swoop and kill him self so spare me. ( every dz has one of those )

The only thing I could possible say is that its dangerous no matter who you are, how much expereince you have, and I hope that I never forget that and think I am invincable, cause I am not.

the art of swooping to me is a beautiful technical artform i love it and i film it, read it, observe it, and get lots of feedback. i have a great respect for it i am pursuing it as an art and very slowly.

i know where i am and i know where i want to go. i am not aiming for the nickname like " fast "

Hah! What can I say, I like how it feels to go fast!

Use your head look at my questions and the canopy i picked they are all at the begining for me and my skillls.

i am not posting questions like 7cell or 9 cell whats the difference i did that years ago.

so after 3 years hours of research and reading hunderds of these posts. i have selected 4-5 canopys that i have all watched fly all watched swoop and i have talked with all the owners. now i want to further my intimite understanding of each canopy and how it flys and see which one i would feel the most comfortable on.

One thing that I did when I was thinking about the canopy I just bought was ask some of my friends if they minded borrowing me thier rig for a jump or two. I was lucky enough that they did so I didn't have to deal with calling to get demo canopies. Maybe some of your friends would do this for you?

as far as the diablo and stilletto they both are very spin happy at normal speed, i have direct experience to that. i also have seen the mamba and heard a few guys who jump velocitys that say that the mamba is super touchy.


I asked a very pointed & simple question, if you have anything to contribute relevent to the question of the canopys i have selected please feel free to contribute.

When a person comes on here and posts one question that question is often read into and people post counter questions in an attempt to better understand what the person is asking and what thier frame of reference is. I am sure that if I knew you and we jumped at the same DZ together I would have had a much different response.

if not dont waste your time trying to preach to me. I dont need saving. I need info.

Maybe maybe not... I won't ever waste my time. If you needed saving I am sure you don't know that though. I am not saying you do. I don't know you well enough to know that, thats why I was asking the questions I did, I wanted to understand you more.

to those of you so kind to share your knowlege thanks.

my goals is to be on a velocity in maybe 6 years from now. with 1500 jumps. i think i have layed out a very conservative path to get there.

I hope it works out for you!

Like I said the only canopy that I have jumped that you list is the crossfire and I love the canopy. I can't compare it to the ones that you listed. The thing that is odd to me is why you want to go from a 135 back to a 150. If you have been jumping the 135 for 100 jumps or something you're gonna be really bored going back up in size. Do you own the saber135? Is it a saber 1 or 2? Is there a reason that you wanted to get rid of it. Is it borrowed? Do you have to give it back? Does your container not fit a canopy that small?

You're saying you have been jumping one of them, I only ask the questions I do because I think you will be bored on the canopies that you have listed if you were already mostly jumping a 135. If you only have a handfull of 135 jumps or want a bigger canopy for some other reason then,.. hey I don't see a reason you would be going wrong with a crossfire. Hell even a 149 might be ok, that depends on a whole lot of stuff that I wouldn't be able to tell unless I was at the DZ with you.


I am sorry if I pissed you off with my post, that wasn't my intention. It was to get you to be more open and give some more information. Thats what people want to see, openess and willingness to learn. In your other thread lots of people made suggestions that you seem to not care about. So, give reasons that you think thier suggestions don't work for you or something.

In the long run, I just want to see people happy, not hurt, and swooping the shit out of the pond/landing area!!
Have fun, stay safe.. don't be angry about my post its not worth it, I am just long winded and direct!

~D
Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me.
Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka

[AggieDave 6]

Demo all of them and make your own decision.

I would also highly recommend a Pilot or a Sabre2.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[ntacfreefly 0]

Quote

sabre 2 is fine but i wanted something a step up on speed and dont want a stileto either both canopys are a bit outdated i know they are great but i am looking for a bit more

The Sabre2 isn't outdated in the least.

Other than that Skinny has the right idea. We can speculate all day on what would be best for your criteria but demo'ing is about the only way YOU will know for sure.

Have fun and be safe
Blues.
Ian

To the mind that is still, the whole universe surrenders. ~ Lao-Tzu

It's all good, they're my brothers ~ Mariann Kramer

[crewkeith 0]

ok
Vengence 150 -probably the most agressive of the bunch. twichy openings but very long recovery arc.

Crossfire 169 - probably most lift based on size

Vision 150 -probably the best openings but not an agressive canopy

Nitron 150 - these 2 are both the same thing. im not really impressed with the nitro-nitron

Nitro 150

I am looking for the greatest lift, the most docile when it comes to spinning (No diablo or Mamba spinners) that would be a specter or sabre

i guess longer recovery arch- velocity

light front riser pressure pd reserve

best glide - paraglider

something i can land easy, make it back from a long spot, and something i can dive and swoop intermediate canopy but also for begining swooping.
spectre or sabre 2

a high performance canopy is work dude. if you dont want the bad things that come with more performance stick with a specter. its a trade off. fast is twitchy. fast is flying the openings. and fast is work. then throw in all the traffic youll be passing in the pattern and having to watch out for everybody on the load things get twitchy by themselfs. if you are willing to put in the time high pulls and hop& pops well then welcome to hi-po canopy flight.my recomendation would be coaching with your current canopy till you can wring it out for all its got . learn to fly it the best you can. then go to a vengance of the same size. i pick the vengance because they are fast, turn very quick, and they are cheap. be safe.
bsbd
keith

.

The skies are no longer safe

I'm back

[airborne82nd 0]

pilot seems to be very slow nice canopy though

i am sorry i guess the sabre2 isnt out dated my mistake. it has been around along time. i am looking for something to the next level up the next thing up from a stileto but not a katana

the Sabre2 135 makes it hard to make it back from a long spots, i love landing off in peoples yards like the next guy.

maybe my reasoning doesnt make sence.

I saw a guy on a crossfire2 ( 150 ) i guess about my size swoop the hell out of the little zhills pond.

i spoke to him and i said how big is that canopy he said 150 he told me that you he can make it back from a long spot, fly slow deep brakes, land soft straight in, and when he kicks it he can swoop it very well.

got me thinking could i use the same criteria for selecting my canopy and if load it lighter will i get all the benifits as well.

will it be harder to swoop a lighter loaded canopy meaning to learn to swoop??

is there a hidden danger in trying to swoop a lighter loaded canopy. will it force me to do dives from a lower height??

im 182lb so is it possible to safely swoop the larger canopies? in the 150 range?

conventiaonal wisdom dictates to down size into the higher loaded canopys.

is there anything wrong with my approach?


Oh and yes i am very destructable, in 3 years and 5 years in the 82nd i have never injured myself parachuting. i have however hurt my self on motocross, years of karate, football oh and hitting my thumbb with the hammer.

im 38 good shape married with a son so i am very conservative i have yet to scare the shit out of myself or do anything stupid ( i am amazed that i know folks that practice that daily )

plus i want a canopy for years i dont want to jump canopys so i want this canopy for say 1000 jumps

look like every says dump the vision nitro or crossfire


thank you everyone for your expertise yes thank you too fast

[AggieDave 6]

Ever seen the video of Scott Miller swooping the piss out of a Navigator 220? He took it 150ft through a swoop course. That's a purpose designed student canopy from PD. I know I've taken a Sabre2 190 well over 200ft before in a swoop.

You don't have to have a "swoop" canopy to have really good and hardcore swoops. Instead of chatting about it, demo everything on your list. Also demo a Pilot and a Sabre2 of a similar size and wingloading.

No matter what people say about any canopy, if you don't like it, you don't like it. So you won't know about a canopy until you demo it and compare it to the other canopies you've jumped.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[airborne82nd 0]

with my weight the crossfire i will load it at 1.38 they recomend 1.4

i know its not a cross braced but any danger of slightly underloading or light loading the crossfire2???

[Pendragon 1]

Quote

i know its not a cross braced but any danger of slightly underloading or light loading the crossfire2???

I wouldn't say there's a danger, but like with all the canopies on the list, why would you? Best performance out of a Xfire2 is in the 1.8-2.0 range. It is a serious canopy. You will see people loading them lighter; my personal feeling is that it is purely for vanity. The "I fly a Xfire2 so I can look cool / experienced" kind of approach. At or less than W/L 1.6 lbs/sqft, you might as well stick with a Sabre2 / Safire2 / Pilot etc as the more squirrelly openings of a fully elliptical canopy won't be justified by the small increment of performance you'll be getting.

I've heard good things about the Nitro (the Nitron is the copy) - again, why would you want to upsize?

I'd demo some, but steer clear of the fully ellipticals until you have some more experience - and the ability to take full advantage of what they have to offer.

--
BASE #1182
Muff #3573
PFI #52; UK WSI #13

[davelepka 4]

OK, a few comments - first off, underloading is a myth. There's ZERO truth to any of that. Any assertion that X canopy flies best at Y WL is bullshit.

One canopy may provide good performance for one pilot at one WL, but chnage the pilot or the purpose, and that WL is all wrong. Ignore anyone who tells your WL is 'wrong' (unless ther're telling you it's too high, and then maybe listen in).

Second off, the idea that you own and jump a Sabre2 135, but feel the need to upsize to learn how to swoop is a little odd. Again, there's nothing 'wrong' with that, but it makes it hard to understand where you're coming from.

The idea that you feel that your Sabre2 won't get you home seems a bit off. You shoul dhave good glide perofrmance with that canopy at your WL. I would look into that.

About swooping - it's fast and aggressive, and you will be pushing your canopy hard a low altitudes. Make sure that this is what you really want.

You say you want a canopy that opens 'easy' and doesn't turn so fast. Thats a square canopy, they don't make the best swooping canopies.

If you're wanting to swoop, you need to move to a place where you are in charge of the canopy, not the other way around. Take control of the openings. Work out a pack job, and a course of action for openings. Learn to work with your canopy if it wants to turn, and make sure you can keep your head on straight if things get little crazy. You'll need those skills when you satrt going fast close to the ground.

About your 'knowledge', who or what you know means very little. I know all sorts of stuff about flying ariplanes. My dad if a CFI, and I spent my youth in the back seat of a 172 while he taught students. That said, if you see me behind a yoke, run the other way. I have no experience flying airplanes.

Swooping is the same way. You are starting from square one. Period. Your reading, watching, talking and studying mean very little, and entitle you to nothing. Make sure you know this, and make sure you truely believe this before you go forward. You are the same beginner as a guy who can't even spell 'swoup'.

The long and short of it is, that canopies that are good for swooping, are going to be bad at other things, like being stable and forgiving. If you want to accept swooping, you have to accept all that goes along with it.

If you have a canopy that goes fast, it will always be fast. If you push it close to the ground, the ground will win out every now and then. If it flies fast and dives fast, it will turn fast, and mal even faster.

That said, I say swoop on. Demo a few canopies, and then spend your money on some one on one coaching with your Sabre2.

[dharma1976 0]

dude you could swoop a 170 at your weight...it isnt the canopy it is the pilot

Dave

http://www.skyjunky.com

CSpenceFLY - I can't believe the number of people willing to bet their life on someone else doing the right thing.

[Pendragon 1]

Quote

Any assertion that X canopy flies best at Y WL is bullshit.

How exactly do you arrive at that? Canopy size and W/L will affect performance, but not in a linear fashion. Overloading a canopy will result in loss of efficiency. "Underloading" a canopy, although not a problem from a safety point of view with parachutes (paragliders it is a different story), will result in loss of lift from the potential (although the effect may not be dramatic). There is a trade-off between parasitic and induced drag (one increases with airspeed, the other decreases); it must come about that there is an overall minimum, with maximum lift generated at this point as a result.

My point would be: why "lightly" load a high-performance canopy when there are less "twitchy", easier handling canopies out there which are designed to give their best performance at the target wing loading?

--
BASE #1182
Muff #3573
PFI #52; UK WSI #13

[davelepka 4]

Quote

Any assertion that X canopy flies best at Y WL is bullshit.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


How exactly do you arrive at that?

Well, I took 11 years, and spent just about every waking moment thinking about parachutes, or jumping parachutes.

I was swooping before it was called 'swooping'. I saw the concept of the 'ideal WL' arise in the wake of swoop comps. I was around when the same guys who designed todays canopies were selling yesterdays canopies, and the concept of an 'ideal' Wl was non-existant. Do youthink that they just overlooked the concept?

There was the idea of what was too high, but aside from that, Wl was all related to what you wanted to do with a canopy. How fast do you want to go, or how far do you want to go, take your pick.

It's bullshit that jumpers have made up. Notice how the ideal WL, and wing size keeps changing? And how every pro has their own ideas on WL and canopy size? It's because there is no one answer.

Different jumpers want different things from canopies, and put different things into different canopies. There are too many variables in the system to declare that input A will result in a maximum output of B. Trust me.

This isn't a knock on you, but you haven't been jumping long enough to know any better. This whole thing was just coming around as you were just coming around. With no pre-concieved notions about what right or wrong, you took it at face value, and believe it to be true. Again, not your fault, it's just your timing landed you where you are.

It's like any sport. When the top guys do it one way, everyone wants to follow. Sure, I can't compete in the PST, but I can jump what they do, so now if I get their skills I have the whole package, right? Not really, but you get the idea.

Try jumping the same canopy in six different sizes, and measure your performance. Jump a few above and few below what you've heard is the 'ideal' WL. You'll see that the differences are slight, and that pilot skill could easily change that.

We had a guy on a Velo 75 at 2.6 or 2.7 take the distance round at a CPC meet last year. According to the 'ideal' WL, he was too heavy and on too small of a wing. But he nailed it and went far. He beat out good swoopers on Velos at 2.4, 2.2, and 1.9. See?

It's really almost a marketing ploy, like expensive basketball shoes, but it's not put forth by the mfgs, it's being circulated by the jumpers.

[PhreeZone 15]

I can get a Sabre2 to glide for a really long ways, its a very flat gliding canopy compared to some on the market. If you are not able to be making it back from long spots with a Sabre2 then get spot with a ferw miles at least

Seriously from what you are posting it sounds like you have'nt even learned all the potential of the canopies that you have. I can float my canopy with tandems and students or I can take it down the swoop course. Its more pilot skill then a function of the canopy.

If I was to swap out my canopy for something I'd look at a Sabre2.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[raymod2 1]

@davelepka: Your logic is all wrong. Just because we didn't know something 11 years ago doesn't mean it is bullshit today. A year ago we didn't know that swooping at high altitudes increases swoop distances. Are you saying that is bullshit too? Three years ago the world record was 418 feet. Today it is 678 feet. Do you think nothing new has been learned about swooping in that time? Your anecdote about the guy with the 2.7 wing loading is just that: anecdotal. Was there a strong headwind? Higher wing loadings perform better in those conditions.

[davelepka 4]

Yeah, whatever. You're missing the point by a mile (or more). I stand beinhd the concept that there is no underlaoding, and there is no 'ideal' WL.

You tell me then, what is an idela WL? Go ahead I'll wait....


.....oh, I see, you need to know what kind fo canopy, the size fo the jumper, and more importantly, what the jumper wants to do with it.

If I could tell you all that, then you could give me the answer though, right?

Just one thing, what if I changed one of those things, would that make a difference? I meam it's not like the pro guys change canopy sizes or WL for different events or anything......wait, I take that back, they do change.

So for certain purposes, and certain size people, there are 'ideal' WL, sure.

This is where you difted into another county from my point. It was proposed that the jumper in question might be underloading the canopy he was looking at. The point is, underloading for what? There is no such thing as underloading, or an ideal WL.

WL is 100% dependent on who you are, and what you want to do with the canopy. The myth that certain canopies 'need' to be 2.2 or whatever is just that, a myth, and futhermore, it's pushing new swoopers to fell that they aren't 'there' unitl they are jumping at these baseless WL's.

It's causing weekend jumpers to think that they are giving something up by jumping at 1.8 instead of 2.2, when some extra skill could make up the difference in swooping, and the extra sq footage could make up the difference when landing off or in the case of an incident.

It's a myth thats pushing WL higher than most people will ever need. As I said, there was always an idea of what was too high. What represented a serious loss of performance and increase in stall speed. The 'ideal' WL associated with canopies are simply one step back from this level.

It's not ideal. There is no such thing as ideal as each jumper and each jump has different requirements.

Open your eyes, look beyond what you know, and get some perspective. Call John LeBlanc at PD and see what he says. Ask him what the ideal loading on a Velo is. He'll come back with questions about you and what you want to do. Why? Each situation is different, and a universal 'ideal' does not exist.

[vdschoor 0]

Quote

Call John LeBlanc at PD and see what he says. Ask him what the ideal loading on a Velo is. He'll come back with questions about you and what you want to do. Why? Each situation is different, and a universal 'ideal' does not exist.

The ideal wingloading for ANY canopy is: "Where you find that the canopy is the most fun to you.. " And this is a quote from Vladi Pesa.

I asked him the same question.. and he explained to me that his favorite canopy was a Katana 97, loaded at 2.6 or so
For a Velo, it was the 103 loaded at 2.44

these are completely off wingsloadings for what the competition guys are flying, or what is talked about as "normal" but these are the wingloadings he likes flying cause that's when it's fun for him.

For me, it was the Sabre2 150 at 1.6 and the Sabre2 135 at almost 1.8. A lot of people would say that's overloading, and it is according to PD's website.. but I don't care, those were the wingloadings I loved those parachutes at!
Now that I lost a lot of weight I am still flying a Sabre2 135 in my backup rig, now only loaded at 1.55 but it is still a swoop monster if you give it the right inputs.

Iwan