davelepka 4 #26 May 17, 2006 That quote from Vladi really backs up what I am saying. It's funny you mention the Sabre2. I had a thought after I wrote the last post, which is who knows what the 'ideal' Wl is for a Sabre2? How about the Spectre? Or how about for any canopy not known for swooping? Nobody does, because it doesn't exist. All kids of people jump different sizes at different loadings and are happy with the performance. In reality it's the same for swooping canopies as well. People are tricked into thinking that one thing or another is the 'right' thing. Then they strap on lead, or downsize to meet that false standard. The right size for a swooping canopy is two-fold. Firstly it's whatever size you can realisticly jump safely, on any day, in any conditions, with the secondary factor being what's fun for you. Here's a clue for swoopers - you need at least 1000 Hp landings, with at least 700 or 800 of them on the same wing to really even know what you 'need' to get some extra perofrmance. Until you reach that level, jump what you can handle in a worst-case-scenario, and what you think would hurt the least if you should fuck up. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
KidWicked 0 #27 May 17, 2006 QuoteVengence 150 Crossfire 169 Vision 150 Nitron 150 Nitro 150 I am looking for the greatest lift, the most docile when it comes to spinning (No diablo or mamba spinners) i guess longer recovery arch light front riser pressure best glide something i can land easy, make it back from a long spot, and something i can dive and swoop intermediate canopy but also for begining swooping. notice the crossfire is the 169 not 150 i am assuming that has the highest performaace i am 182 right now my weight is very consistant. and am i pussen out i know i am not loading these to hard but can i dive em and make them swoop??? ok which one is the best performer. smallest thein i have jumped was a 135 sabre 2 Cobalt. www.extremefly.comCoreece: "You sound like some skinheads I know, but your prejudice is with Christians, not niggers..." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
KidWicked 0 #28 May 17, 2006 QuoteI know I've taken a Sabre2 190 well over 200ft before in a swoop./reply] Yeah, but at what wingloading? Not light.Coreece: "You sound like some skinheads I know, but your prejudice is with Christians, not niggers..." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Cloudi 0 #29 May 18, 2006 Quote -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- In Reply To -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I know I've taken a Sabre2 190 well over 200ft before in a swoop./reply] Yeah, but at what wingloading? Not light. http://www.skydivingmovies.com/ver2/pafiledb.php?action=file&id=1628 View this and then ask that question if you still think it really matters. It's ALL about the skills. Kim Watch as I attempt, with no slight of hand, to apply logic and reason. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites AggieDave 6 #30 May 18, 2006 QuoteYeah, but at what wingloading? Not light. It was something like 1.3 or 1.4. Not an unusual wingloading for a Sabre2 jumper.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites dharma1976 0 #31 May 18, 2006 QuoteQuoteYeah, but at what wingloading? Not light. It was something like 1.3 or 1.4. Not an unusual wingloading for a Sabre2 jumper. I was taking a sabre 2 170 150 feet at 1.2... And a sabre 2 150 at abotu 1.3-1.4 200 feet Cheers Davehttp://www.skyjunky.com CSpenceFLY - I can't believe the number of people willing to bet their life on someone else doing the right thing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites AggieDave 6 #32 May 18, 2006 QuoteI was taking a sabre 2 170 150 feet at 1.2... And a sabre 2 150 at abotu 1.3-1.4 200 feet Cheers See, that's what I'm talking about. The Sabre2 is one of the best all around canopies on the market. Its not hard to make the canopy fly with just a little bit of trying.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Fast 0 #33 May 18, 2006 QuoteQuoteQuoteYeah, but at what wingloading? Not light. It was something like 1.3 or 1.4. Not an unusual wingloading for a Sabre2 jumper. I was taking a sabre 2 170 150 feet at 1.2... And a sabre 2 150 at abotu 1.3-1.4 200 feet Cheers Dave I was regularly getting over 200ft on a saber 1 - 150 on a swoop course with 10ft gates. Close to 300ft with a 3-7mph downwind on a more conservative hook. I am on a smaller higher loaded wing now and getting shorter swoops. I had to tone thing down a bit because I am not anywhere near as comfortable with it as I was the saber after hundres of jumps.~D Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me. Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites dharma1976 0 #34 May 18, 2006 QuoteQuoteI was taking a sabre 2 170 150 feet at 1.2... And a sabre 2 150 at abotu 1.3-1.4 200 feet Cheers See, that's what I'm talking about. The Sabre2 is one of the best all around canopies on the market. Its not hard to make the canopy fly with just a little bit of trying. see but now on my crossfire after learning all that stuff on the sabre2 I can clear 1/2-3/4s of the eloy landing area...ooo I cant wait until I finally implement al of what I learned from Brian Germain last weekend ;-) Davehttp://www.skyjunky.com CSpenceFLY - I can't believe the number of people willing to bet their life on someone else doing the right thing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites AggieDave 6 #35 May 18, 2006 Quotesee but now on my crossfire after learning all that stuff on the sabre2 I can clear 1/2-3/4s of the eloy landing area...ooo I cant wait until I finally implement al of what I learned from Brian Germain last weekend ;-) Right, so would you agree that the Sabre2 was a good canopy to learn on? Do you feel like you would have done as well if you had gone to a canopy like the XF2 in the first place to have learned on?--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites crewkeith 0 #36 May 19, 2006 there is pretty good research out there on the subject. jerry sobeski wrote a good paper on ramairs. there could be such a thing as underloading a canopy. extreme case would be the damn thing would never have enough weight under it to inflate. then you would get into forward speeds. what would be ok for forward speed ? 3 mph? a canopy needs speed to fly right? how about turbulence penetration? something loaded at .2 is gonna fly slow and be more likely to lose pressure right? there are things to consider for minimum loading but hey the manufactures put that stuff in the owners manual. pd puts it right on the label.... just a thought bsbd keithThe skies are no longer safe I'm back Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites davelepka 4 #37 May 19, 2006 OK, thats fair. In extreme cases, underloading is possible. If you put a baby under a tandem main, then yes, maybe thats underloading. This discussion is about the 'ideal' WL that people are trying to assign to swooping canopies, and if being under that 'ideal' would be underloading. The jumper in question was wondering is loading an Xfire at 1.6 would be 'underloading', which is rediculous. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites dharma1976 0 #38 May 19, 2006 QuoteQuotesee but now on my crossfire after learning all that stuff on the sabre2 I can clear 1/2-3/4s of the eloy landing area...ooo I cant wait until I finally implement al of what I learned from Brian Germain last weekend ;-) Right, so would you agree that the Sabre2 was a good canopy to learn on? Do you feel like you would have done as well if you had gone to a canopy like the XF2 in the first place to have learned on? Absaposalutely I think it was a great choice and then was told after about 240 jumps or so and a shitload of coaching by my DZO that I could move on but to remember to walk before I ran :-P Cheers Davehttp://www.skyjunky.com CSpenceFLY - I can't believe the number of people willing to bet their life on someone else doing the right thing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites airborne82nd 0 #39 May 19, 2006 my question of underloading is ridiculous???? i dont understand ? i have some folks recomending the cobalt also i guess the vision is out and vengence. thanks again for all who wrote thanks for taking your valuable time to write Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites davelepka 4 #40 May 19, 2006 Quotemy question of underloading is ridiculous???? No, your question wasn't rediculous, what's rediculous is that the information is around that would even cause you to ask that question. At some point, people figured out what WL was just too much for competition. Then they backed off of that a hair, and called it the 'ideal' WL. Now everyone thinks that if they're not at the 'ideal' WL, then their giving up all kinds of performance, or, like you, that they're underloading. Both of these are false. You can jump any canopy made at 1.5 or 1.6, and get great performance from it, and enjoy the hell out of it (except the Cobalt, don't buy one of those ever). I still think you should stick with your Sabre2, and just get some one-on-one coaching. The coaching will make way more of a difference than switching canopies, and the Sabre2 is a nice wing to work with. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites scottswoops 0 #41 May 23, 2006 I say screw it! Get a Velo 79!! What could possibly go wrong?????? "Try not! Do, or do not.... there is no try." --Yoda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites vdschoor 0 #42 May 23, 2006 QuoteI say screw it! Get a Velo 79!! What could possibly go wrong?????? Nothing really.. it's just a little bit faster than what you're used to, just be careful, you'll be fine.. What's the rush people? Look at all the people that are flying in the PST right now, most of them have hundreds of jumps on the same canopy before downsizing.. I have 1200+ jumps on Sabre2s and I was still having a blast on them. Long swoops, pond swoops, sinking it in.. everything.. don't rush yourselves.. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites cessna54tango 0 #43 May 23, 2006 funny, no mention of a safire 2. my buddy jumps a 169 loaded at 1.4 - 1.5 depending on weight and has gotten some pretty decent swoops out of it, it openes fantastic, a bit long but nice, and flies great. only thing is the recovery arc is relativly short. i just sold my xf2 and had that loaded at 1.9. that flew great. but im not sure how they flew lighter. i knew a guy who flew a safire 2 loaded light, like 1-1 and he said it opened like crap. but steve o's 169 opens, flies and lands sweet. maybe you can consider that, it could be a good step up to an xfire, or something. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites bob.dino 0 #44 May 24, 2006 My DZ is overrun with Safire2s loaded from about 1.0 to 1.4, and they all seem to open nicely. Maybe your friend's was out of trim? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites cessna54tango 0 #45 May 24, 2006 honestly he wasnt even my friend, just some dude bashing safire openings at a dz we flew to last year. steve-o was telling him about how nice his opens. we asked him about his canopy and it is new with only 20 jumps on it......... must be body position Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Feather 0 #46 May 24, 2006 Erm... what about a Hurricane? A friend of mine demoed a Crossfire 2 the other weekend and then a 'Cane the next. He couldn't stop going on about how the 'cane was waaaaaaaay better with regards to opening, performance, glide, arc... Is it cos it's a South African canopy that US jumpers don't wanna jump it? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites cessna54tango 0 #47 May 25, 2006 something better than a xf2? not possible...... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ntacfreefly 0 #48 May 25, 2006 Quote something better than a xf2? not possible...... I preferred my Hurricane over the XF2 in all regards except for opening. Mine never did open softly but otherwise it was a great canopy. Blues IanTo the mind that is still, the whole universe surrenders. ~ Lao-Tzu It's all good, they're my brothers ~ Mariann Kramer Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites bob.dino 0 #49 May 25, 2006 QuoteIs it cos it's a South African canopy that US jumpers don't wanna jump it? The Crossfire2 is a Kiwi canopy. I'd imagine it has more to do with the Sales/Support/Dealer network that Icarus built in the US than with the origin of the canopy. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites johnny1488 1 #50 May 25, 2006 Actually, if you want to get techincal, the Crossfire2 is a Spanish canopy. But now Im splitting hairs. And My biased opinion has that the xfire2 trounced the hurricane. Different class. Johnny --"This ain't no book club, we're all gonna die!" Mike Rome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 Next Page 2 of 3 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
Cloudi 0 #29 May 18, 2006 Quote -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- In Reply To -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I know I've taken a Sabre2 190 well over 200ft before in a swoop./reply] Yeah, but at what wingloading? Not light. http://www.skydivingmovies.com/ver2/pafiledb.php?action=file&id=1628 View this and then ask that question if you still think it really matters. It's ALL about the skills. Kim Watch as I attempt, with no slight of hand, to apply logic and reason. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #30 May 18, 2006 QuoteYeah, but at what wingloading? Not light. It was something like 1.3 or 1.4. Not an unusual wingloading for a Sabre2 jumper.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dharma1976 0 #31 May 18, 2006 QuoteQuoteYeah, but at what wingloading? Not light. It was something like 1.3 or 1.4. Not an unusual wingloading for a Sabre2 jumper. I was taking a sabre 2 170 150 feet at 1.2... And a sabre 2 150 at abotu 1.3-1.4 200 feet Cheers Davehttp://www.skyjunky.com CSpenceFLY - I can't believe the number of people willing to bet their life on someone else doing the right thing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #32 May 18, 2006 QuoteI was taking a sabre 2 170 150 feet at 1.2... And a sabre 2 150 at abotu 1.3-1.4 200 feet Cheers See, that's what I'm talking about. The Sabre2 is one of the best all around canopies on the market. Its not hard to make the canopy fly with just a little bit of trying.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Fast 0 #33 May 18, 2006 QuoteQuoteQuoteYeah, but at what wingloading? Not light. It was something like 1.3 or 1.4. Not an unusual wingloading for a Sabre2 jumper. I was taking a sabre 2 170 150 feet at 1.2... And a sabre 2 150 at abotu 1.3-1.4 200 feet Cheers Dave I was regularly getting over 200ft on a saber 1 - 150 on a swoop course with 10ft gates. Close to 300ft with a 3-7mph downwind on a more conservative hook. I am on a smaller higher loaded wing now and getting shorter swoops. I had to tone thing down a bit because I am not anywhere near as comfortable with it as I was the saber after hundres of jumps.~D Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me. Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dharma1976 0 #34 May 18, 2006 QuoteQuoteI was taking a sabre 2 170 150 feet at 1.2... And a sabre 2 150 at abotu 1.3-1.4 200 feet Cheers See, that's what I'm talking about. The Sabre2 is one of the best all around canopies on the market. Its not hard to make the canopy fly with just a little bit of trying. see but now on my crossfire after learning all that stuff on the sabre2 I can clear 1/2-3/4s of the eloy landing area...ooo I cant wait until I finally implement al of what I learned from Brian Germain last weekend ;-) Davehttp://www.skyjunky.com CSpenceFLY - I can't believe the number of people willing to bet their life on someone else doing the right thing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #35 May 18, 2006 Quotesee but now on my crossfire after learning all that stuff on the sabre2 I can clear 1/2-3/4s of the eloy landing area...ooo I cant wait until I finally implement al of what I learned from Brian Germain last weekend ;-) Right, so would you agree that the Sabre2 was a good canopy to learn on? Do you feel like you would have done as well if you had gone to a canopy like the XF2 in the first place to have learned on?--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
crewkeith 0 #36 May 19, 2006 there is pretty good research out there on the subject. jerry sobeski wrote a good paper on ramairs. there could be such a thing as underloading a canopy. extreme case would be the damn thing would never have enough weight under it to inflate. then you would get into forward speeds. what would be ok for forward speed ? 3 mph? a canopy needs speed to fly right? how about turbulence penetration? something loaded at .2 is gonna fly slow and be more likely to lose pressure right? there are things to consider for minimum loading but hey the manufactures put that stuff in the owners manual. pd puts it right on the label.... just a thought bsbd keithThe skies are no longer safe I'm back Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
davelepka 4 #37 May 19, 2006 OK, thats fair. In extreme cases, underloading is possible. If you put a baby under a tandem main, then yes, maybe thats underloading. This discussion is about the 'ideal' WL that people are trying to assign to swooping canopies, and if being under that 'ideal' would be underloading. The jumper in question was wondering is loading an Xfire at 1.6 would be 'underloading', which is rediculous. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dharma1976 0 #38 May 19, 2006 QuoteQuotesee but now on my crossfire after learning all that stuff on the sabre2 I can clear 1/2-3/4s of the eloy landing area...ooo I cant wait until I finally implement al of what I learned from Brian Germain last weekend ;-) Right, so would you agree that the Sabre2 was a good canopy to learn on? Do you feel like you would have done as well if you had gone to a canopy like the XF2 in the first place to have learned on? Absaposalutely I think it was a great choice and then was told after about 240 jumps or so and a shitload of coaching by my DZO that I could move on but to remember to walk before I ran :-P Cheers Davehttp://www.skyjunky.com CSpenceFLY - I can't believe the number of people willing to bet their life on someone else doing the right thing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airborne82nd 0 #39 May 19, 2006 my question of underloading is ridiculous???? i dont understand ? i have some folks recomending the cobalt also i guess the vision is out and vengence. thanks again for all who wrote thanks for taking your valuable time to write Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
davelepka 4 #40 May 19, 2006 Quotemy question of underloading is ridiculous???? No, your question wasn't rediculous, what's rediculous is that the information is around that would even cause you to ask that question. At some point, people figured out what WL was just too much for competition. Then they backed off of that a hair, and called it the 'ideal' WL. Now everyone thinks that if they're not at the 'ideal' WL, then their giving up all kinds of performance, or, like you, that they're underloading. Both of these are false. You can jump any canopy made at 1.5 or 1.6, and get great performance from it, and enjoy the hell out of it (except the Cobalt, don't buy one of those ever). I still think you should stick with your Sabre2, and just get some one-on-one coaching. The coaching will make way more of a difference than switching canopies, and the Sabre2 is a nice wing to work with. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
scottswoops 0 #41 May 23, 2006 I say screw it! Get a Velo 79!! What could possibly go wrong?????? "Try not! Do, or do not.... there is no try." --Yoda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
vdschoor 0 #42 May 23, 2006 QuoteI say screw it! Get a Velo 79!! What could possibly go wrong?????? Nothing really.. it's just a little bit faster than what you're used to, just be careful, you'll be fine.. What's the rush people? Look at all the people that are flying in the PST right now, most of them have hundreds of jumps on the same canopy before downsizing.. I have 1200+ jumps on Sabre2s and I was still having a blast on them. Long swoops, pond swoops, sinking it in.. everything.. don't rush yourselves.. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cessna54tango 0 #43 May 23, 2006 funny, no mention of a safire 2. my buddy jumps a 169 loaded at 1.4 - 1.5 depending on weight and has gotten some pretty decent swoops out of it, it openes fantastic, a bit long but nice, and flies great. only thing is the recovery arc is relativly short. i just sold my xf2 and had that loaded at 1.9. that flew great. but im not sure how they flew lighter. i knew a guy who flew a safire 2 loaded light, like 1-1 and he said it opened like crap. but steve o's 169 opens, flies and lands sweet. maybe you can consider that, it could be a good step up to an xfire, or something. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bob.dino 0 #44 May 24, 2006 My DZ is overrun with Safire2s loaded from about 1.0 to 1.4, and they all seem to open nicely. Maybe your friend's was out of trim? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cessna54tango 0 #45 May 24, 2006 honestly he wasnt even my friend, just some dude bashing safire openings at a dz we flew to last year. steve-o was telling him about how nice his opens. we asked him about his canopy and it is new with only 20 jumps on it......... must be body position Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Feather 0 #46 May 24, 2006 Erm... what about a Hurricane? A friend of mine demoed a Crossfire 2 the other weekend and then a 'Cane the next. He couldn't stop going on about how the 'cane was waaaaaaaay better with regards to opening, performance, glide, arc... Is it cos it's a South African canopy that US jumpers don't wanna jump it? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cessna54tango 0 #47 May 25, 2006 something better than a xf2? not possible...... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ntacfreefly 0 #48 May 25, 2006 Quote something better than a xf2? not possible...... I preferred my Hurricane over the XF2 in all regards except for opening. Mine never did open softly but otherwise it was a great canopy. Blues IanTo the mind that is still, the whole universe surrenders. ~ Lao-Tzu It's all good, they're my brothers ~ Mariann Kramer Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bob.dino 0 #49 May 25, 2006 QuoteIs it cos it's a South African canopy that US jumpers don't wanna jump it? The Crossfire2 is a Kiwi canopy. I'd imagine it has more to do with the Sales/Support/Dealer network that Icarus built in the US than with the origin of the canopy. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
johnny1488 1 #50 May 25, 2006 Actually, if you want to get techincal, the Crossfire2 is a Spanish canopy. But now Im splitting hairs. And My biased opinion has that the xfire2 trounced the hurricane. Different class. Johnny --"This ain't no book club, we're all gonna die!" Mike Rome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
