freeflydemon 0 #1 August 11, 2005 Which one has longest recovery arch: safire 1 or safire 2? which one is better for swooping, better flare? pros and contras? I couldn't stand it any more. I corrected the thread title to "Arc" from "Arch" t Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #2 August 11, 2005 It's ARC!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DancingFlame 0 #3 August 11, 2005 Both are good enough from my expirience. I believe Icarus stopped production of Safire1 some years ago. It's getting difficult to find one in a good condition. It's the pilot who swoops, not the canopy. Choose whatever you like. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
speedy 0 #4 August 11, 2005 QuoteIt's ARC!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ARC ARC ARC ARC ARC ARC They never learn do they? But last time I pointed this out they made the excuse they were russian or something Dave Fallschirmsport Marl Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydivenagasaki 0 #5 August 11, 2005 Quote ARC ARC ARC ARC ARC ARC They never learn do they? But last time I pointed this out they made the excuse they were russian or something Tongue Russian, French, or from the friggin moon, the kid's got a serious question and this is the best answer you two cool guys have is to bust his balls about how arc is spelled...wow, thanks for the insight. As far as the canopy, I believe that Icarus gave the Safire 2 a bit shorter arc but couldn't tell you for sure. I've only got a couple of jumps on a 2 and none on a 1. With the way that you wingload your canopy, you might consider a Crossfire2 - the flare is unrivaled among non-crossbraced canopies and the recovery arc is legnthened a bit IMHO. "and if you don't like it then 'Hey Fuck You'" --The Beastie Boys-- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TALONSKY 0 #6 August 11, 2005 The Safire 2 has a shorter recovery arc this is one of the improvements they made on the canopy ( although I really never understood why). As far as the Safire 1, there seems to be two types of them out there; one has great opennings and a ton of flare , the other has hard opennings and not so much flare. I beleive most of the hard openning ones were built by Presision but they also built some good ones too. Also here is some info on the Safire 1: I e-mailed Icarus and explained that this had been talked about here and if they could give me a reply that I could post so here is Icarus's reply The Safire-1 and the Omega are measured differently to PD canopies. As a rough guide a Safire-1 or Omega is about the same size as the next size down - eg A Safire 149 is about a 135. A Safire 119 is about a 109. Use an equation of 8%. The Safire-2 and Omni (Omni supercedes Omega) are measured the same as PD. All other Icarus Canopies are measured the same as PD. The reason for the difference is due to Precision measuring their canopies differently. Icarus have always measured the same as PD however when we originally commenced in the USA, Precision were building parachutes for us under license and were doing it using their size equations and not Icarus/PD's. We have therefore had to wait to supercede these models to change the size equation. Only the Safire and Omega were affected. Blue skies Simon Icarus Canopies USA: 1S671 Bender Lane, West Chicago, IL 60185, USA Ph. (630) 562-2735, Fax (630) 231-4430 Europe: P.I. El Ramassar, c/ Vallés, s/n O8520, Les Franqueses, Barcelona, SPAIN. Ph. (34) 938 496 432, Fax (34) 938 497 971 www.icaruscanopies.com Kirk Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mattjw916 2 #7 August 11, 2005 Yeup, some of the Precision-built Icarus canopies originally had the hard opening/poor flare problem. In addition, they are 7-8% smaller than the placarded size as talonsky said, i.e. my 189 is really a 175(ish) when using PD's measuring method. These canopies can be identified by red bartacks at the line attachment points on the canopy. My Precision-Icarus-Safire has an enlarged slider and Derek's (hooknswoop) control-line mod and opens slow and on-heading every time and has NEVER slammed me. Control range is lower in the toggle stroke than a Sabre2 which prompts the PD-bigots to say they have "weak flare" since they are accustomed to not flaring completely. I definately would not say that my canopy has a long recovery arc though. Seems about the same as the other couple semi-elliptical 9 cells I have jumped. Cheers NSCR-2376, SCR-15080 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hippydiver 0 #8 August 11, 2005 I start my 180's between 350 ft on my safire1 loaded around 1.3 or just under (depending how much beer I've been drinking that month). It's actually a 1.4 if you use the 8% less rule and call my 149 a 135. I have read and heard that the recovery arc is shorter on a safire2, but haven't flown one. As for my safire1, I love it and will probably continue to fly it and learn with it for many many jumps to come. It has a ton of flare (just lower in the toggle stroke than a PD, which I really like), awesome openings that are perfect for wingsuits, and I can get great turf surfs out of it. Mine was built in January 2000 and has had a reline with Vectran cut by Icarus's loft in Chicago and I believe these new lines have a trim revision from the original lineset shipped with the canopies years ago. I also psycho pack it, as recommended by icarus.---------- gravity rat formula 109 Team Gonzo and Team Jamaican Me Crazy no bullshit, let's just fly, be safe, and have fun. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dharma1976 0 #9 August 11, 2005 QuoteQuoteIt's ARC!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ARC ARC ARC ARC ARC ARC They never learn do they? But last time I pointed this out they made the excuse they were russian or something I remember that post, I think the guy was a russian living in finland ;) I used to just give a good solid 90 turn to final (toggle turn at 300 ft) under my safire 1 and build up extra speed for a straight in landing with a little turn surf. Also the extra speed definately made it easier to flare :-P I sold it and got myself a PD sabre 2 170 and then 150 and I love it for riser turns... cheers and blues. Davehttp://www.skyjunky.com CSpenceFLY - I can't believe the number of people willing to bet their life on someone else doing the right thing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
spoons 0 #10 August 11, 2005 having done 100 jumps on a safire 1, but only 2 on a safire 2 - i would say they both seem very similar apart from the safire 2 opens better. Recovery arc on both canopies is pretty short, i found a sabre2 to have a considerably longer recovery arc. In saying that though, my safire swoops pretty well and always has enough flare....just not as much as a sabre2 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
speedy 0 #11 August 11, 2005 QuoteQuote ARC ARC ARC ARC ARC ARC They never learn do they? But last time I pointed this out they made the excuse they were russian or something Tongue Russian, French, or from the friggin moon, the kid's got a serious question and this is the best answer you two cool guys have is to bust his balls about how arc is spelled...wow, thanks for the insight. Ok, while I applaud the OP's question about recovery arc for swooping, I think at 300 jumps, there are other things that are of more importance. There are lot's of skills to be learned in skydiving and I don't believe that at 300 jumps you have addressed the more important factors than the differences in recovery arc between two canopies. The recovery arc is of no real interest unless you are attempting HP landings. Dave Fallschirmsport Marl Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
YISkyDive 0 #12 August 12, 2005 QuoteThey never learn do they? But last time I pointed this out they made the excuse they were russian or something haha, its Czech.. and yes a WHOLE post was made of the matter.. thank you. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #13 August 12, 2005 Quotethe kid's got a serious question and this is the best answer you two cool guys have is to bust his balls about how arc is spelled...wow, thanks for the insight. QuoteWith the way that you wingload your canopy, you might consider a Crossfire2 Wow. And the way you suggested a Crossfire to a person who says they have 300 jumps and you know nothing about was really helpful too. QuoteI've only got a couple of jumps on a 2 and none on a 1. The recovery arc on the Safire and Safire II are not significantly different. Glad you could help.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #14 August 12, 2005 QuoteIn addition, they are 7-8% smaller than the placarded size They are exactly the placarded size as measured by the PIA accepted method.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DancingFlame 0 #15 August 12, 2005 I'm not buying this 'smaller than placarded' thing. Safire1-139 made by Precision packs a bit larger than Sabre2-135, Safire1-129 (build in Spain) I'm currently jumping packs a lot larger that Stiletto-120. I've tried 120 sq. feet canopies and all of them flew faster than a Safire1-129. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
flyhi 24 #16 August 12, 2005 QuoteThe Safire 2 has a shorter recovery arc this is one of the improvements they made on the canopy Not sure why this is considered an improvement. Doesn't a shorter recovery arc means you have to start the turn lower? If I start it higher, wouldn't that give me more opportunity to detect a bad setup and adjust? It's late and the Sierra Nevada () and I could be wrong on that.Shit happens. And it usually happens because of physics. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterrigger1 2 #17 August 12, 2005 QuoteQuoteIn addition, they are 7-8% smaller than the placarded size Quote They are exactly the placarded size as measured by the PIA accepted method. Quote uhmmmmmm, No they are not! MELSkyworks Parachute Service, LLC www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites marks 0 #18 August 12, 2005 QuoteDoesn't a shorter recovery arc means you have to start the turn lower? you dont have to turn to land, a shorter recovery arc gives you a flatter glide, some peeps like it better that way. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites TALONSKY 0 #19 August 12, 2005 QuoteI'm not buying this 'smaller than placarded' thing. Safire1-139 made by Precision packs a bit larger than Sabre2-135, Safire1-129 (build in Spain) I'm currently jumping packs a lot larger that Stiletto-120. I've tried 120 sq. feet canopies and all of them flew faster than a Safire1-129. When I first took a look at the Safire I called and talked to Icarus reps I was told then about the size issue. I ended up buying a used Safire 1 169. One time I did a hop-n-pop with a guy that had a Sabre 150. After the jump I measured both canopies on the top skin. Taking to consideration that the Safire is lightly elipitcal, I made a solid model of each and looked at volume of each. I turns out that my Safire 169 is just a touch smaller. If you do a search I posted this information way back when I did it. After a while of these kind of seamingly endless debates on this issue I e-mailed Icarus for some information I could post here to end this debate. That is how I ended up with the letter from Simon. If you truely still do not believe measure the canopies for yourself and draw your own conclusion. Kirk Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites TALONSKY 0 #20 August 12, 2005 QuoteQuoteThe Safire 2 has a shorter recovery arc this is one of the improvements they made on the canopy Not sure why this is considered an improvement. Doesn't a shorter recovery arc means you have to start the turn lower? If I start it higher, wouldn't that give me more opportunity to detect a bad setup and adjust? It's late and the Sierra Nevada () and I could be wrong on that. I did not understand that either but when the Safire 2 was introduced one of the improvements they boasted about is the shorter recovery arc, but as someone stated not everyone is looking to swoop their canopy either. Kirk Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skydivenagasaki 0 #21 August 13, 2005 Quote Wow. And the way you suggested a Crossfire to a person who says they have 300 jumps and you know nothing about was really helpful too. Actually, the Crossfire2 would probably be a more forgiving canopy to fly at that wingloading because if and when he needsd it, the flare on the Xfire will save his ass much quicker than a Safire 1 or 2. I got my Xfire 139 loaded at 1.6ish with 334 jumps and when learning how to swoop found it very powerful but very forgiving. It only took those two jumps on the Safire to know that flare and responsiveness were not it's main strength. If no speed was induced on the Safire (loaded 1.5ish) the flare was terrible, and taking a wrap on the control lines just made it twitchy as if to stall. Obviously, I know nothing of this person and when choosing a canopy, or trying anything new in this sport, an experienced coach or mentor should be brought into the picture and their opinion highly regarded. Just something to think about. But I suppose with my mere 665 jumps I know nothing... "and if you don't like it then 'Hey Fuck You'" --The Beastie Boys-- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites spoons 0 #22 August 13, 2005 My brother has jumped my 149 loaded at over 1.55 and has no problems at all at landing it without any speed inducing measures (other than his bulk hanging under it ). He's also jumped at safire 129 loaded even higher obviously, and again that landed fine. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites TALONSKY 0 #23 August 13, 2005 Quote If no speed was induced on the Safire (loaded 1.5ish) the flare was terrible, and taking a wrap on the control lines just made it twitchy as if to stall. Obviously, I know nothing of this person and when choosing a canopy, or trying anything new in this sport, an experienced coach or mentor should be brought into the picture and their opinion highly regarded. Just something to think about. But I suppose with my mere 665 jumps I know nothing... Well, it is pretty obvious that you had one of the screwed up Safire’s made by Precision. I had a Safire loaded at 1.55 to one and found it had a ton of flare. They are not as responsive as the Crossfire but that can be a great thing when someone does a panic stab of the toggles. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Tonto 1 #24 August 13, 2005 QuoteI'm not buying this 'smaller than placarded' thing. Well. Good for you. The manufacturer has no reason to lie about something like this. I jump a Stilleto 107 and a Safire 119. Apart from a fractionally longer recovery arc and a significantly longer toggle stroke on the Safire, and the quicker turn rate on the Stilleto, the pack volumes and performance of both canopies are difficult to tell apart. The same was true of my Safire 135/Stilleto 120 Combo I used some years back. Why would you refuse to accept what the manufacturer has to say? tIt's the year of the Pig. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites marks 0 #25 August 13, 2005 QuoteI'm not buying this 'smaller than placarded' thing it actually is the size of the placard if you measure it the way they did to get that size. which is a different way than what the industry standard way of measuring is now. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 Next Page 1 of 2 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0 Go To Topic Listing
marks 0 #18 August 12, 2005 QuoteDoesn't a shorter recovery arc means you have to start the turn lower? you dont have to turn to land, a shorter recovery arc gives you a flatter glide, some peeps like it better that way. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TALONSKY 0 #19 August 12, 2005 QuoteI'm not buying this 'smaller than placarded' thing. Safire1-139 made by Precision packs a bit larger than Sabre2-135, Safire1-129 (build in Spain) I'm currently jumping packs a lot larger that Stiletto-120. I've tried 120 sq. feet canopies and all of them flew faster than a Safire1-129. When I first took a look at the Safire I called and talked to Icarus reps I was told then about the size issue. I ended up buying a used Safire 1 169. One time I did a hop-n-pop with a guy that had a Sabre 150. After the jump I measured both canopies on the top skin. Taking to consideration that the Safire is lightly elipitcal, I made a solid model of each and looked at volume of each. I turns out that my Safire 169 is just a touch smaller. If you do a search I posted this information way back when I did it. After a while of these kind of seamingly endless debates on this issue I e-mailed Icarus for some information I could post here to end this debate. That is how I ended up with the letter from Simon. If you truely still do not believe measure the canopies for yourself and draw your own conclusion. Kirk Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TALONSKY 0 #20 August 12, 2005 QuoteQuoteThe Safire 2 has a shorter recovery arc this is one of the improvements they made on the canopy Not sure why this is considered an improvement. Doesn't a shorter recovery arc means you have to start the turn lower? If I start it higher, wouldn't that give me more opportunity to detect a bad setup and adjust? It's late and the Sierra Nevada () and I could be wrong on that. I did not understand that either but when the Safire 2 was introduced one of the improvements they boasted about is the shorter recovery arc, but as someone stated not everyone is looking to swoop their canopy either. Kirk Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydivenagasaki 0 #21 August 13, 2005 Quote Wow. And the way you suggested a Crossfire to a person who says they have 300 jumps and you know nothing about was really helpful too. Actually, the Crossfire2 would probably be a more forgiving canopy to fly at that wingloading because if and when he needsd it, the flare on the Xfire will save his ass much quicker than a Safire 1 or 2. I got my Xfire 139 loaded at 1.6ish with 334 jumps and when learning how to swoop found it very powerful but very forgiving. It only took those two jumps on the Safire to know that flare and responsiveness were not it's main strength. If no speed was induced on the Safire (loaded 1.5ish) the flare was terrible, and taking a wrap on the control lines just made it twitchy as if to stall. Obviously, I know nothing of this person and when choosing a canopy, or trying anything new in this sport, an experienced coach or mentor should be brought into the picture and their opinion highly regarded. Just something to think about. But I suppose with my mere 665 jumps I know nothing... "and if you don't like it then 'Hey Fuck You'" --The Beastie Boys-- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
spoons 0 #22 August 13, 2005 My brother has jumped my 149 loaded at over 1.55 and has no problems at all at landing it without any speed inducing measures (other than his bulk hanging under it ). He's also jumped at safire 129 loaded even higher obviously, and again that landed fine. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites TALONSKY 0 #23 August 13, 2005 Quote If no speed was induced on the Safire (loaded 1.5ish) the flare was terrible, and taking a wrap on the control lines just made it twitchy as if to stall. Obviously, I know nothing of this person and when choosing a canopy, or trying anything new in this sport, an experienced coach or mentor should be brought into the picture and their opinion highly regarded. Just something to think about. But I suppose with my mere 665 jumps I know nothing... Well, it is pretty obvious that you had one of the screwed up Safire’s made by Precision. I had a Safire loaded at 1.55 to one and found it had a ton of flare. They are not as responsive as the Crossfire but that can be a great thing when someone does a panic stab of the toggles. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Tonto 1 #24 August 13, 2005 QuoteI'm not buying this 'smaller than placarded' thing. Well. Good for you. The manufacturer has no reason to lie about something like this. I jump a Stilleto 107 and a Safire 119. Apart from a fractionally longer recovery arc and a significantly longer toggle stroke on the Safire, and the quicker turn rate on the Stilleto, the pack volumes and performance of both canopies are difficult to tell apart. The same was true of my Safire 135/Stilleto 120 Combo I used some years back. Why would you refuse to accept what the manufacturer has to say? tIt's the year of the Pig. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites marks 0 #25 August 13, 2005 QuoteI'm not buying this 'smaller than placarded' thing it actually is the size of the placard if you measure it the way they did to get that size. which is a different way than what the industry standard way of measuring is now. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 Next Page 1 of 2 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
TALONSKY 0 #23 August 13, 2005 Quote If no speed was induced on the Safire (loaded 1.5ish) the flare was terrible, and taking a wrap on the control lines just made it twitchy as if to stall. Obviously, I know nothing of this person and when choosing a canopy, or trying anything new in this sport, an experienced coach or mentor should be brought into the picture and their opinion highly regarded. Just something to think about. But I suppose with my mere 665 jumps I know nothing... Well, it is pretty obvious that you had one of the screwed up Safire’s made by Precision. I had a Safire loaded at 1.55 to one and found it had a ton of flare. They are not as responsive as the Crossfire but that can be a great thing when someone does a panic stab of the toggles. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tonto 1 #24 August 13, 2005 QuoteI'm not buying this 'smaller than placarded' thing. Well. Good for you. The manufacturer has no reason to lie about something like this. I jump a Stilleto 107 and a Safire 119. Apart from a fractionally longer recovery arc and a significantly longer toggle stroke on the Safire, and the quicker turn rate on the Stilleto, the pack volumes and performance of both canopies are difficult to tell apart. The same was true of my Safire 135/Stilleto 120 Combo I used some years back. Why would you refuse to accept what the manufacturer has to say? tIt's the year of the Pig. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
marks 0 #25 August 13, 2005 QuoteI'm not buying this 'smaller than placarded' thing it actually is the size of the placard if you measure it the way they did to get that size. which is a different way than what the industry standard way of measuring is now. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
