speedy 0 #26 November 12, 2004 The reason why someone with 300 jumps should not be under a velocity is not because it's cross braced. You could put some cross bracing in a PD210 but I would not fly any faster. The packing volume would be huge though Dave Fallschirmsport Marl Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
isaiah85 0 #27 November 12, 2004 [ the manufacturer requires 1000 jumps at any wingloading on that canopy.] If I'm watching someone and there doing really well on a non x-braced wing I might just let them demo a Velo at 999 jumps But really, like Chuck said, If your not getting everything out of your canopy, and more importantly putting it where you want to consistently. (A lot of people can swoop somewhere on the DZ.) Getting a Velo will only slow down the learning process. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkymonkeyONE 3 #28 November 12, 2004 And there you have it.......AGAIN......straight from the mouth of a travelling PD rep. The factory, which Isaiah represents on the road these days, takes a very firm stance when it comes to whom they will send a canopy to. Sure, there are chimps out there who will sell you anything you ask for so long as you have cash money, but the fact of the matter is that the factory and any accomplished skydiver/swooper with a brain in his head is not going to let you jump a Velo till you are qualified to do so. Sitting in on Scott's or Brian's or Jim's course will not qualify you to do so either if you have under 1000 jumps. Jump the right tool for the job (at whatever your true experience level). Very, very few skydivers under braced canopies have any business jumping them. Most people jumping them these days do so because they think "it's cool" and they do good to live through the landings. I regularly see people sawing the lines on approach and toggle whipping their shit in full-on Gumby mode. But hey, they must be cool, right? "I got's me a Verocity! Sheeeeut! I be loading my shit at two-point-five!" If you are one of these guys, and believe me when I tell you that you guys are all over the place now, you need to seriously take a step back and check yourself. If you are pounding into ponds, hip-skipping off the dirt, and looking like you are out of control, then you should have never spent that money. There was a post just a few up saying that it wasn't bracing per-se that was the problem. When I talk about braced canopies, I am talking about those bought specifically for swooping (or perpetrating like you can swoop), loaded in the two-point-zero and higher range. Yes, it's possible for a small person to get a Velo 120 and not be loading it high at all, but once again, that would be a dumb purchase as you won't get anything out of it but hefty pack volume and a big dent in your wallet for your trouble. Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JT-Mirage 0 #29 November 12, 2004 Well said brother blue. JT Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CanuckInUSA 0 #30 November 12, 2004 QuoteVery, very few skydivers under braced canopies have any business jumping them. Steve (that would be me) can been seen hanging his head and scurrying back under the rock from which he came now that he's been told that he's NOT experienced enough to be jumping a cross-braced canopy. But hold on a sec folks, he kind of knew that already, as while his swoops are slowly getting better (especially since receiving some excellent high performance canopy control coaching from a world class canopy pilot), he still hasn't dialed in everything and still has plenty of work (likely taking at least 200+ more jumps) to do before he is ready to jump a cross-braced canopy. He only wishes a handful of people he's encountered in his travels locally and abroad who do currently jump cross-braced canopies who either don't have the recommended experience or worse don't come close to flying their canopies the way they should be flown could read this thread. Then maybe only the truly qualified would be jumping cross-braced canopies and the rest of us could still be trying to master our HIGH PERFORMANCE pocket rockets as we know they absolutely have the potential to kill us just as much as a cross-braced canopy can kill us. Try not to worry about the things you have no control over Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bobsharc 0 #31 November 13, 2004 300 jumps ..... velo ....... very bold . and you know what they say about old and bold.I know he was just askin about wingloading but i think canopy characteristics have a lot to do with it too.Inexperience + small elliptical = pain - sooner or laterKnow enough to know you dont know enough. Me , I know it all Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
speedy 0 #32 November 13, 2004 QuoteYes, it's possible for a small person to get a Velo 120 and not be loading it high at all, but once again, that would be a dumb purchase as you won't get anything out of it but hefty pack volume and a big dent in your wallet for your trouble. Now that is exactly what I wanted to say a few posts back. Thanks for putting it into the right words. Dave Fallschirmsport Marl Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freefli 2 #33 November 14, 2004 Dave, from what i know the answer you're looking for is around 2.0- 2.2. closer to the lower loading is better since you can add weights to achieve the higher, whether you're going for speed or distance. having answered the q, i have a couple of things to say that the others have stated. I don't know how it works over in Israel, but here in the states there is a little cool factor in jumping a crossbraced. but falling into this belief is just stupid. i jumped crossfire 2's until i was extremely proficient in doing whatever i wanted to do. i mastered hooking in a 90, then 180, then 270's. after having been able to do each turn and have the canopy plane out on it's own exactly at the height i wanted, i then progressed to landing it using rears. the reason i progressed to this point on an elliptical is that it can be much more forgiving if i made a mistake during my progression. it was also easier to learn these skills on an elliptical rather than a crossbraced. i then jumped a crossbraced at over 1000 jumps and i was still scared. it took some time adapting to the new shape of the canopy but but with the skills i had learned on the elliptical, i adapted. i would never think of trying to learn those skills starting on a crossbraced, nor would i ever recommend it, which is what everyone is telling you. if you are really serious about swooping or going to a high performance canopy, you should take a class from a highly trained pro, some of them have been mentioned in this thread. think about this, you girlfriend cuts herself and you think, i know enough to take care of this. so you whip out a bandaid, or if it's bad, you break out the crazy glue or stiches if your really cheap. would you actually perform surgery to repair a lacerated artery or a punctured lung without the proper training, just cause you saw it on TV? 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MaybeMor 0 #34 November 14, 2004 ThanX for your worries guys and just to start off with, NO, I’m not (at least at the moment) after the Velo. Sorry for taking the time with replaying your posts. Work work and errr... more work but I’m happy with what this thread became off. As most of you probably saw, I’m currently flying (very happily) my Vision and loving every min of it! It gives a lot of confidence and recover beautifully from any front raisers turns (may it B 180, 270...) to a long stable long flared swoop. As McD’ say: "I’m loving it" -) The question came from comparing the Velo to my next canopy, Katana 120, that I’ve just ordered. Being the closest wing to a X-braced a person like me can allow himself to fly without getting himself into corners he won’t be able to dig his way out of (although totally different in almost all areas - I know) I wanted to compare WL to the Velo as I went for the Katana for the purpose of focusing myself on becoming a better swooper with what I see as the natural step before acquiring the "1,000 jumps" mark (or so) and playing with the "big boys". SPIZZZARKO - I do put 110% of myself in every single landing but the Velo is still few steps ahead of me. JT-MIRAGE - You are so right as for the same canopies behaving different (not necessarily good or bad, all depending on what you want out of it as long as you’re within the recommended WL) under various WL and it seems that the answer is not absolute and each person has his own preferences and what he feels comfortable with. DANCINGFLAME - you are right and as mentioned above, at the moment I’m not after a Velocity. SKYMONKEYONE - Well said chuck! I share the same way of thinking that a person should unleash the full potential of his current canopy, especially when considering moving from a non-X Braced ones to something like the Velo, before taking the mentioned step and thinking that would make him more competitive. Right on!. FREEFLI - They call Tel-Aviv "the small apple" -). Here in that sense it’s not so different from that way it works in the states (having jumped there) and without mentioning any names from obvious reasons - we have our own share of X Braced pilots who (for a lot of the "big boys" opinions) have no business with flying their canopies. They do land each and every time (and we all happy ‘bout it) but as Chuck said - they give you the feeling like they have no control over what their doing. Ho well, that’s another way of spending 2K. An elliptical canopy is much more forgiving if you make mistakes during your progression but the added disadvantage is that in order for your canopy to plain out and recover naturally for a long nice swoop without the need of you pulling on your rears, or brakes, and by that slowing it’s progression - a X Braced canopy (although will recover naturally at the end) "needs" you to "tell" it when to plain out from the dive (whichever way you choose - by pulling down/ apart the rears or by the use of braking) and will not lose it’s speed (with regards to Non X Braced ones) as much. Progression and experience is everything (well common sense too -) and a lot of people does need to reflect on how safe and experienced good pilots they are before recollecting on how to survive the next jump. The CF2 is a dam good 9-cell elliptical canopy especially when considering the way it stays straight and recover beautifully from its dive but from my own little experience (jumping the 129) you need to load it a bit more with regards to other "high performance" canopies out there on the market and in order for me to get to that WL I need few hundreds of jumps more. That’s just my way of thinking. And it’s not that I’m walking toward the "Red carpet"-). Few canopy schools internationally, swooping schools, lots of canopies from different types and sizes on my logbook (including already jumping the Katana 120 few times) and my own common sense and desires made me feel and B aware of my landings and what is (always) the "next step" and "next step" for me. I cherries life very much - thank you very much - and got people who care for me 24/7. But I truly appreciate the concern. Blues and safe (long..) landings, David Mor Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
falxori 0 #35 November 14, 2004 Quoteand without mentioning any names from obvious reasons what reasons ?!?!? its not as if anyone is lurking around following your posts... O "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tonto 1 #36 April 26, 2005 QuoteThe question came from comparing the Velo to my next canopy, Katana 120, that I've just ordered. Being the closest wing to a X-braced a person like me can allow himself to fly without getting himself into corners he won't be able to dig his way out of... 70 degrees. That's deep in the corner. Hope you make it back out one day. tIt's the year of the Pig. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ianmdrennan 2 #37 April 27, 2005 Ok people. Don't think it can't happen to you... Seriously...I doubt many (if any will listen) but are people that naive that they think it 'can't happen to them?' IanPerformance Designs Factory Team Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ianmdrennan 2 #38 April 27, 2005 QuoteBeing the closest wing to a X-braced a person like me can allow himself to fly without getting himself into corners he won’t be able to dig his way out of (although totally different in almost all areas - I know) I wanted to compare WL to the Velo as I went for the Katana for the purpose of focusing myself on becoming a better swooper with what I see as the natural step before acquiring the "1,000 jumps" mark (or so) and playing with the "big boys". A Katana of ANY size IS playing with the 'big boys'....but I think you realize that now. This post is more for those who are thinking about it. It's simple folks, if you don't think you can handle a X-brace, you're not ready for a Katana - they are so much so like a velocity that I fly the 2 almost identically. Please, I know you can all be spectacular pilots in time, with the right training and the right experience. Live long enough to gain both. Blues, IanPerformance Designs Factory Team Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkymonkeyONE 3 #39 April 27, 2005 For that matter, Ian, I fly my Sabre2 97 almost identically to my Velo 84. Hell, it's nearly the same wingload. The riser pressure is just less on the Sabre2. Any canopy loaded heavilly is going to come out of the sky like a bomb when thrown into a 270 degree turn. Let me put it into a bit more perspective: When I got tired of Stillettos; I owned a 107 and a 97 for six years; I didn't want to step up to a crossbrace due to their ground-hungriness which I felt would be too "busy" in the huge amount of student traffic we had a Raeford. The brand new "inbetween" canopy was the Vengeance. I bought one sight unseen and it arrived one month later in my colors. Already having a ton of jumps on the ST's and few jumps on a couple of sizes of VE's, I thought I knew what to expect. What I got was a Vengeance 97 that flew "mushy", but at the same time was as ground hungry as a Velo 90. I put a week's worth of jumps on the canopy and immediately sold it. What was the point in owning a canopy that dived like a crossbrace, but only swooped as far as my Stilletto? None, that's what. I immediately ordered a crossbraced canopy (a VX 74) and an Alpha 84. Those were the two canopies winning all the swoop meets back then, so that's what I bought. Ultimately, I found I liked the Velo better than my VX or the other canopies I used to compete with and went back to PD. Still, I don't have any use for a Katana in my tool bag. It is a very-agressive nine-cell, much in the Vengeance tradition, only with better openings. I guess I could get away with one in my wingsuit rig, but it would be dumb to replace my fantastic little Sabre2, which IS the right tool for the job. Katanas dive VERY hard and are very ground hungry in full flight. I consider the Katana to be a good substitute for a crossbrace for those jumpers who have to make 1000 jumps a year and just can't risk hard/bad openings on occasion and who can't stand the larger pack volume of the braced canopies. The Katana is ABSOLUTELY NOT a good, first elliptical canopy for ANYONE. The fact of the matter is that there are very, very few skydivers out there that need to be jumping anything more agressive than a Sabre2 or a Pilot, or something similar. Seriously. I don't know how many times I am going to have to say that. Any of you young jumpers out there need a lesson in how bad a guy can smoke your ass under a Sabre2, come to Raeford. If you are qualified, I might even let you try to smoke me under my own velo. The bottom line here is that if the pilot can not wring the max out of a "lesser", more manageable canopy, then he or she has no business making that vanity Katana (or Velo) purchase. Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
marks 0 #40 April 27, 2005 im starting to get a little tired of CROSSBRACED being used as the term for a high performance canopy. im TIRED of seeing my freinds bounce off the ground.. do you people not UNDERSTAND that if your not scared YOU SHOULD be. because if bouncing under a HIGH PERFORMANCE WING. doesnt scare the shit out of you then your not ready//...... it still scares the shit out of me.. i took my progression very very slow because im scared. ANY canopy below a 150 IS a HIGH performance wing. if your not getting what you want out of it. you not flying it right... 150 REGARDLESS of wingloading.. and if you DISSAGREE with me then that is because you have a LACK of experiance!!!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
marks 0 #41 April 27, 2005 i just want to point everyone to this thread. again!!! http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1609356;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;forum_view=forum_view_collapsed;;page=unread#unread read all of it. and also read all of this thread. time and time again, this is how it happens. i just hope maybemor is able to read these threads one day and maybe post a lottle somthing about what was going on in his head.... hopefully "if he lives" he can think straight and type for himself.. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marion 0 #42 April 27, 2005 How many times does this have to happen before people wake up? It's like somebody gives these guys a script: "I've got 300 jumps and I'm trying to figure out what size Velo I'm gonna be flying later. Don't worry, it's not like I'm buying it next month. Yeah, I know I've only got 150 jumps on my current canopy, but I really need to be on a Katana because it's the best transition canopy to get me to a Velo. And I have to downsize when I get my Katana because it would be a huge jump from my current canopy size down to a Velo 84. Besides, I'll be safer with the longer recovery arc. I know some people can't handle it- did you read the thread about that guy who pounded in?- but I'm really heads up. I've gotten coaching. I've never hurt myself. I know a guy who was on a Katana when he had 300 jumps and he's never hurt himself. People say I'm a good canopy pilot." I've heard that from so many people. Some are dead, some got hurt, and some got lucky. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GQ_jumper 4 #43 April 27, 2005 I'd put my money on Chuck under the sabre2 anyday. I've seen guys at my dz on a spectre outswoop guys on little xfire2's.History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid. --Dwight D. Eisenhower Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bob.dino 0 #44 April 27, 2005 The only thing you'd need to change to make that perfect is to have the putative swoop god call it a "recovery arch" instead of "arc" . Nice writing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Vectracide 0 #45 November 16, 2005 QuoteA Katana of ANY size IS playing with the 'big boys'....but I think you realize that now. This post is more for those who are thinking about it. It's simple folks, if you don't think you can handle a X-brace, you're not ready for a Katana - they are so much so like a velocity that I fly the 2 almost identically.Quote I posted this in another forum just 5 minutes ago, then I saw this thread and I felt that if fit better here. QuoteQuotecrossbraced wing means that there is brace between cells that is added, and it goes across from one side of the rib bottom, to the other rib top. crossbracing holds the wing a little more rigid, and reduces that "bubble look" between each cell, the wing is held a little more flat. I would like to expound on this issue if I can for a minute.... Lets look at the Katana vs. the Velo. A couple thoughts first: The dive characteristics are very similar, being the Katana does not dive as much as the Velo. So, in swooping the idea is to aquire as much speed as possible to go further with more control. Efficency is the key here, which by my guess, is why the Velo dives and has such a longer swoop than the Katana. The wing is flatter and more effiecent. SO.....Devils advocate here to create some thought provoking posts.....why the big stigma of "oooohh its a cross-braced", "you shouldn't be jumping that". "Fly the Katana instead, its better suited for you". I see that posted here alot, and for most, its a good argument. What I am trying to grasp here is why the overruling thought of flying a less effiecient, poorer opening characteristics, less rigid wing with less shut down power if you are going to be flying it the same as if you had a crossbraced at the same wingload? Your thoughts on the inherent differences between these 2 canopies for inquiring minds. Now to apply it even more to this thread and what Freefli said...."the cool factor" of crossbraced wings. Doesn't it seem like the Katana was made exactly like the Velo except for the x-braces for a reason? Was this to get out of from under the "X-braced" pro stigma? It just doesn't make any sense here to create a wing that is less in many ways, but leaving, if not INCREASING the risk factor for that specific pilot. Then market it to a group of pilots that are not looking for a xbraced because they think they are too advanced. My #1 jump buddie did just that. Bought a Katana after 800+ jumps, mostly under a Xfire2 and flew his ass right into the dirt. Knocked off 7 of his 9 lives. What am I missing here? I am just trying to figure out where the Katana really fits into the canopy progression chart for an aspiring competitive pilot. ------------------------------ Controlled and Deliberate..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ianmdrennan 2 #46 November 16, 2005 Hi, First of all, sorry about your buddy. Least he's still got 2 lives left though QuoteI am just trying to figure out where the Katana really fits into the canopy progression chart for an aspiring competitive pilot. The questions you raise are largely due to (IMO) confusing marketing and also jumper awareness. I too, made a purchasing error when the Katana first came out. At that time it was near impossible to get a demo so I bought it for my wife on my understanding what the canopy was. At the time I thought it was more than a ST (Stiletto but basically a replacement for it) and less than a Velo. I was wrong. After jumping it I realized it was much more like a Velo with little to no resemblance to the ST. IMO the Katana is a great canopy and most definitely has it's place in the progression of a canopy pilot. In a perfect world the following is my recommendation for someone working their way up the swoop ranks: 1) Sabre2. Gradually downsized until loading approaches 1.7 or so. 2) KA in the same size as the last Sabre2. Gradually downsized until the loading is around 1.9-2.0 3) Velo thereon out. The problem is that a large X-brace (loaded 1.7) fly's kinda sluggish. It's an expensive canopy with not much 'bang for the buck' at that loading. The KA fills that void rather nicely (assuming you're not a big guy - least until the 135, 150 is available). The KA is also very suitable for experienced pilots who want the fastest landings they can get without a canopy that gives them the X-brace headache. Openings are less desirable on X-braces than non-xbraces. The packing volume is higher, the riser pressure is significantly higher, etc, etc. Basically if I HAD to chose between loading a Velo 103 or a KA 107 (without weights to increase my loading) I'd take the KA 107. Much more fun to fly at that loading. If the choice was an 89 KA or a 90 Velo, I'd take the Velo. Hope this helps. Blues, Ian So much for staying out of the swoop forum Performance Designs Factory Team Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Vectracide 0 #47 November 16, 2005 QuoteThe questions you raise are largely due to (IMO) confusing marketing and also jumper awareness. Agreed. Quote1) Sabre2. Gradually downsized until loading approaches 1.7 or so. 2) KA in the same size as the last Sabre2. Gradually downsized until the loading is around 1.9-2.0 3) Velo thereon out. Do you belive that it would be prudent to fly a higher tapered wing, such as a Xfire for several+ hundred jumps until you reach the 1.9-2.0 range as compared to going from a Sabre2 to the KA? Only reason I am saying this, is I have flown both Xfire and Sabre2 at the 1.6 range, and they do not perform the same in the least. In fact, the Lotus, that is in the same class as the Sabre2 is a poor swooping canopy. Flying a canopy that dives more than the Sabre2 class, but less than the KA or Velo in my opinion is a very smart move, if not totally necessary. The difference betweent the Sabre2 dive and the KA is huge. Heck, the difference between the Xfire and the KA dive is around 200' at close to the same wingload. This is of course only with my experience. QuoteThe problem is that a large X-brace (loaded 1.7) fly's kinda sluggish. It's an expensive canopy with not much 'bang for the buck' at that loading. The KA fills that void rather nicely (assuming you're not a big guy - least until the 135, 150 is available). So what I am reading here, is that unless you are going to be loading near the 2.0 range, flying a Xbraced is inefficent. Whereas flying a KA at the 1.6-2.0 range you would get better performance than a Xbraced. QuoteThe KA is also very suitable for experienced pilots who want the fastest landings they can get without a canopy that gives them the X-brace headache. Openings are less desirable on X-braces than non-xbraces. Now this is just from what I have heard from Velo and KA pilots. Katana starts slow with a snappy finish. Mindfullness to the harness input is needed. Velo's (which I have never flown) from which I have been told open long and slow, like a Xfire2. Much harness attention needed. If there is truth to this, what are the headaches associated with the Xbraced openings? QuoteBasically if I HAD to chose between loading a Velo 103 or a KA 107 (without weights to increase my loading) I'd take the KA 107. Much more fun to fly at that loading. I am at that exact crossroad right now. I am currently sewing myself a weightbelt to load my Xfire2 119 in the 1.7 range so I can side by side my buddies 107 KA. I really would like to compete in the CPC next year and need to get a game plan going for that. Now to make this post even longer... What, other than the lame name, do you think of the Mamba my Aerodyne? Same class as KA? QuoteHope this helps. Yes, it did, thanks. ------------------------------ Controlled and Deliberate..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites lewmonst 0 #48 November 16, 2005 QuoteThe KA is also very suitable for experienced pilots who want the fastest landings they can get without a canopy that gives them the X-brace headache. Openings are less desirable on X-braces than non-xbraces. For a x-brace that opens sweet, try a Xaos-21 by Precision. I'm loading an 88 at around 2.2 without weight and up to 2.5 with weight. LOVE IT! I jump camera most of the time and get awesome openings and swoops... peace lewhttp://www.exitshot.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites UDSkyJunkie 0 #49 November 18, 2005 QuoteANY canopy below a 150 IS a HIGH performance wing. if your not getting what you want out of it. you not flying it right... 150 REGARDLESS of wingloading.. and if you DISSAGREE with me then that is because you have a LACK of experiance!!!!! First off, I agree with about 99% of what you said. However, I disagree with 150 being the line. From 100 jumps to about 650, I flew a Sabre 135 loaded 1.2. Given the right inputs, I was (eventually) able to fly it like a high-performance canopy. However, for the first 300 or so jumps on it, I didn't do that. I made lots of mistakes in those first 300. Crosswind landings, downwind landings, landing in corn, a couple lowish panic turns, a couple last-minute flare-turns, a couple times paying more attention to the person videoing me than the groud, twice I had the drawstrings from my slider get caught in one toggle and prevented flare on one side, and once the right half of the canopy collapsed at 25 feet while I was on double-fronts. None of those resulted in more than a bruised ego, and most I even stood up. If that's not the definition of a "forgiving" canopy, I'm not sure what is. Granted, had I reacted to some of those situations differently, they might have not gone so well, but the same could be said of those events if I was flying a 170 or 190 instead. Now my current Sabre2 120? Yeah... that's strait up a HIGH performance canopy. I wouldn't recommend it to anyone without several hundred jumps and some demonstrated skill. PD even called my S&TA when I asked for that demo."Some people follow their dreams, others hunt them down and beat them mercilessly into submission." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites br0k3n 0 #50 November 18, 2005 Quote twice I had the drawstrings from my slider get caught in one toggle and prevented flare on one side, Not trying to divert from the subject here, but for this reason and others, I just roll my slider and stow it, and dont even bother to collapse it.. if you have a slider stow, then collasping the slider is pointless, as you just have those long old draw strings flapping around.. Also when you just collaspe and stow it, you still have the slider flapping away on the out side or the draw strings... rolling and stowing can illimate this...----------------------------------------------------------- --+ There are 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't.. --+ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 Next Page 2 of 2 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0 Go To Topic Listing
ianmdrennan 2 #46 November 16, 2005 Hi, First of all, sorry about your buddy. Least he's still got 2 lives left though QuoteI am just trying to figure out where the Katana really fits into the canopy progression chart for an aspiring competitive pilot. The questions you raise are largely due to (IMO) confusing marketing and also jumper awareness. I too, made a purchasing error when the Katana first came out. At that time it was near impossible to get a demo so I bought it for my wife on my understanding what the canopy was. At the time I thought it was more than a ST (Stiletto but basically a replacement for it) and less than a Velo. I was wrong. After jumping it I realized it was much more like a Velo with little to no resemblance to the ST. IMO the Katana is a great canopy and most definitely has it's place in the progression of a canopy pilot. In a perfect world the following is my recommendation for someone working their way up the swoop ranks: 1) Sabre2. Gradually downsized until loading approaches 1.7 or so. 2) KA in the same size as the last Sabre2. Gradually downsized until the loading is around 1.9-2.0 3) Velo thereon out. The problem is that a large X-brace (loaded 1.7) fly's kinda sluggish. It's an expensive canopy with not much 'bang for the buck' at that loading. The KA fills that void rather nicely (assuming you're not a big guy - least until the 135, 150 is available). The KA is also very suitable for experienced pilots who want the fastest landings they can get without a canopy that gives them the X-brace headache. Openings are less desirable on X-braces than non-xbraces. The packing volume is higher, the riser pressure is significantly higher, etc, etc. Basically if I HAD to chose between loading a Velo 103 or a KA 107 (without weights to increase my loading) I'd take the KA 107. Much more fun to fly at that loading. If the choice was an 89 KA or a 90 Velo, I'd take the Velo. Hope this helps. Blues, Ian So much for staying out of the swoop forum Performance Designs Factory Team Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Vectracide 0 #47 November 16, 2005 QuoteThe questions you raise are largely due to (IMO) confusing marketing and also jumper awareness. Agreed. Quote1) Sabre2. Gradually downsized until loading approaches 1.7 or so. 2) KA in the same size as the last Sabre2. Gradually downsized until the loading is around 1.9-2.0 3) Velo thereon out. Do you belive that it would be prudent to fly a higher tapered wing, such as a Xfire for several+ hundred jumps until you reach the 1.9-2.0 range as compared to going from a Sabre2 to the KA? Only reason I am saying this, is I have flown both Xfire and Sabre2 at the 1.6 range, and they do not perform the same in the least. In fact, the Lotus, that is in the same class as the Sabre2 is a poor swooping canopy. Flying a canopy that dives more than the Sabre2 class, but less than the KA or Velo in my opinion is a very smart move, if not totally necessary. The difference betweent the Sabre2 dive and the KA is huge. Heck, the difference between the Xfire and the KA dive is around 200' at close to the same wingload. This is of course only with my experience. QuoteThe problem is that a large X-brace (loaded 1.7) fly's kinda sluggish. It's an expensive canopy with not much 'bang for the buck' at that loading. The KA fills that void rather nicely (assuming you're not a big guy - least until the 135, 150 is available). So what I am reading here, is that unless you are going to be loading near the 2.0 range, flying a Xbraced is inefficent. Whereas flying a KA at the 1.6-2.0 range you would get better performance than a Xbraced. QuoteThe KA is also very suitable for experienced pilots who want the fastest landings they can get without a canopy that gives them the X-brace headache. Openings are less desirable on X-braces than non-xbraces. Now this is just from what I have heard from Velo and KA pilots. Katana starts slow with a snappy finish. Mindfullness to the harness input is needed. Velo's (which I have never flown) from which I have been told open long and slow, like a Xfire2. Much harness attention needed. If there is truth to this, what are the headaches associated with the Xbraced openings? QuoteBasically if I HAD to chose between loading a Velo 103 or a KA 107 (without weights to increase my loading) I'd take the KA 107. Much more fun to fly at that loading. I am at that exact crossroad right now. I am currently sewing myself a weightbelt to load my Xfire2 119 in the 1.7 range so I can side by side my buddies 107 KA. I really would like to compete in the CPC next year and need to get a game plan going for that. Now to make this post even longer... What, other than the lame name, do you think of the Mamba my Aerodyne? Same class as KA? QuoteHope this helps. Yes, it did, thanks. ------------------------------ Controlled and Deliberate..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lewmonst 0 #48 November 16, 2005 QuoteThe KA is also very suitable for experienced pilots who want the fastest landings they can get without a canopy that gives them the X-brace headache. Openings are less desirable on X-braces than non-xbraces. For a x-brace that opens sweet, try a Xaos-21 by Precision. I'm loading an 88 at around 2.2 without weight and up to 2.5 with weight. LOVE IT! I jump camera most of the time and get awesome openings and swoops... peace lewhttp://www.exitshot.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
UDSkyJunkie 0 #49 November 18, 2005 QuoteANY canopy below a 150 IS a HIGH performance wing. if your not getting what you want out of it. you not flying it right... 150 REGARDLESS of wingloading.. and if you DISSAGREE with me then that is because you have a LACK of experiance!!!!! First off, I agree with about 99% of what you said. However, I disagree with 150 being the line. From 100 jumps to about 650, I flew a Sabre 135 loaded 1.2. Given the right inputs, I was (eventually) able to fly it like a high-performance canopy. However, for the first 300 or so jumps on it, I didn't do that. I made lots of mistakes in those first 300. Crosswind landings, downwind landings, landing in corn, a couple lowish panic turns, a couple last-minute flare-turns, a couple times paying more attention to the person videoing me than the groud, twice I had the drawstrings from my slider get caught in one toggle and prevented flare on one side, and once the right half of the canopy collapsed at 25 feet while I was on double-fronts. None of those resulted in more than a bruised ego, and most I even stood up. If that's not the definition of a "forgiving" canopy, I'm not sure what is. Granted, had I reacted to some of those situations differently, they might have not gone so well, but the same could be said of those events if I was flying a 170 or 190 instead. Now my current Sabre2 120? Yeah... that's strait up a HIGH performance canopy. I wouldn't recommend it to anyone without several hundred jumps and some demonstrated skill. PD even called my S&TA when I asked for that demo."Some people follow their dreams, others hunt them down and beat them mercilessly into submission." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
br0k3n 0 #50 November 18, 2005 Quote twice I had the drawstrings from my slider get caught in one toggle and prevented flare on one side, Not trying to divert from the subject here, but for this reason and others, I just roll my slider and stow it, and dont even bother to collapse it.. if you have a slider stow, then collasping the slider is pointless, as you just have those long old draw strings flapping around.. Also when you just collaspe and stow it, you still have the slider flapping away on the out side or the draw strings... rolling and stowing can illimate this...----------------------------------------------------------- --+ There are 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't.. --+ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
