HELP ON CANOPY CONTROL-MY LANDINGS SUCK

[VampireGirl 0]

Hi everybody.

Need some advice.

I have 73 jumps and about 30 jumps ago bought my own kit, (very cheap-second hand, but looked over by my very trusted rigger and deemed to be "sound"). Now, I was a static line student in the Uk until 18 jumps and so was jumping huge canopies (260 square feet mantas), which always brought me down softly no matter what I did.

I then did AFF and (at last year's eloy boogie) and was jumping a 220 teleis, great canopy, lots of fun and no issues.

I have now downsized to my own kit a PD190 (F111, with about 800 jumps (??) on it) and have had some very hairy landings. I have attended Chris Lynches "Wing Tips" seminar, but due to one thing or another only got two landings filmed which were disasterous!!

I learnt a lot about flight patterns on the course and now seem to be able to not land off too many times, but still have trouble with landings, especially on nil wind days, so much so that I don't want to jump in nil winds at the moment.

I have been told by my rigger that I can fit a ZP170 main into my container (a classic teardrop) when I want to downsize and don't want to downsize until I can land my 190, but have been told by a lot of people that the F111 fabric is the issue here.

I was wondering if any of you had any opinions on this and also what canopy I should be looking for, for my next one... I have been recommended one in particular, but don't want to mention it until I have had some options as I don't want to bias your opinions.

Sorry for the long post.

Any advice/opinions would be greatly appreciated.

PS, I am attending another canopy control course in Spain with Brian Vacher in March, and don't expect to be doing much jumping between now and then, its been an expensive year (AFF, new rig) and I can't afford to go to eloy this year...

www.sneale-create.com

[DShiznit 0]

Just my newbie opinion....

Jump a ZP canopy and you will see a world of difference. I've made a handful of jumps on a bogey 196 (F111) and they landings truly do suck compared to my Sabre.

[TALONSKY 0]

When F111 material starts to wear out it become harder to flare. The reason is F111 material lets a curtain amount of air through it and as F111 wears out it lets more air through it (making it harder to flare and stop). At 800 jumps I would say for the most part your canopy is wore out and that would be the key to your problem. I have an F111 canopy with over 1000 jumps on it, I have seen one person who can consistantly get great landings with it and others including me get hard landing with it. The reason behind that I would guess is with a wore out F111 canopy you can stop but you only have one real shot at it and you have to flare it all the way and at once to get it to effectivly stop
Kirk

[chachi 0]

To be perfectly honest I don't like f111 canopies in the least and don't feel they should be in circulation anymore. We should be working students down on large sabres because the flare is much different, and yes more powerful. An f111 canopy also has a life of around 1000 jumps so yes effectively your canopy is probably worn out. Another reason is the canopy may have terrble line trim causing poor performance. I would suggest getting onto a sabre if you can. No need to spend a day longer learning how to flare a canopy that is worn out and didn't have a great flare to begin with. Remember though, whatever ZP canopy that you downsize or even change to will have a faster approach, so be careful, get instruction, and wok on your life saving skills, ie. flat turns, flare turns, and most importantly your accuracy. Be safe.

~Chachi

[skyhighkiy 0]

in my professional opinion (look at jump numbers before listening to my opinion on this)

I think you're hurting yourself in the long run, by continuing to jump this canopy.
(the long run being,when you switch to zp, and the time it takes you to get descent at canopy work)

I"m saying this because I have a jumping buddy w/ over 200 jumps, almost all of which were made on an f111 canopy. I see the way he flares as compared to the rest of us that are on zp. and the point in his flare is to slow down way up high, to the point where his vertical speed will be slow enough to prevent injury...as opposed to the rest of us, that flare closer to the ground and fly our canopies even after our vertical speed is nearly zero, touching down softer than stepping down a stair.

now, I also got to see him jump a zp canopy last week...as described by him, it was a WHOLE new ball game and he flared waaay too high.

It seems like the people I've seen land f111 are really just trying to not injure themselves when they land.

[guessing statement]
I don't know about the abilities of f111 and getting any kind of surf out of them, but the 3 people I know that jump f111, make pretty much straight in landings,
And although this shouldn't be on your mind now, if you get off this canopy at 100 jumps, switch to zp, and decide to start trying swoops at 200, it will probably be like starting to try and swoop at 100 jumps. please, someone correct me.
[/guessing statement]

anyway, the solution to your biffing problem on f111 (canopy condition aside) is probably to just flare higher, that's what my f111 buddy does. BUt then, this is probly going to throw your judgement off when you switch to ZP

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE, before listening to my post, consult with someone that has more experience in these matters, Just trying to throw out more things you might want to ask about. safe landings!

BE THE BUDDHA!

[mfnren 0]

i have had the same experience,My last 80 jumps have been on a pd 190.I had some scary landings on no wind days as well. But you don't need a new canopy to have better landings, although it definately would help, what I have found is that you really need to feel the flare.. don't just flare in one motion, As you come near the ground start to flare slowly ,and as you start flying more parallel to the ground continue your flare to decrease your speed, then start running. This happens pretty much in one motion. The thing is to try and get your canopy to fly parallel relatively close to the ground so you don't have to step down when you land ,more like step up out of your harness transitioning to a run.And come in full speed , although it's scary at 1st, that speed is what will give you lift, if you try and come in slow it just makes things worse.
Check out the section on canopy control in safety, and read flying and landing hp canopies. Helped me alot.

[TALONSKY 0]

Not to doubt your advice but how many jumps are on your current canopy. There is a huge difference between a newer F111 canopy(which would land quite well the way you state) and one that should be retired(which would pound you in if you landed the way you state)?
Kirk

[DrewEckhardt 0]

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i But you don't need a new canopy to have better landings

That depends on how worn the canopy is (a worn out F111 canopy does not lhave enough flare to land acceptably with a straight-in approach), wing loading (lower wing loadings mean you're coming down slower and need less of a flare to be comfortable), and density altitude (this increases speed and reduces flare power).

One mid-sized woman (wing loading well under 1.0) consistantly pounded in under her ragged out Raven-II (218 square feet) up here at 5000 feet MSL until she sprained her ankle and I loaned her my spare Turbo Z 205. Getting rid of the porosity immediately made her landings comfortable.

Many people would consider F111 to be worn-out at 1000 jumps in average conditions. A claimed 800 jumps could be over 1000 actual jumps. Dusty environments can substantially reduce lifespan. With jumps in places like Eloy the PD190 could be done at 800 real jumps.

Having the porosity checked would be a fine idea. Talk to your rigger about having that done in England.

[Jimbo 0]

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To be perfectly honest I don't like f111 canopies in the least and don't feel they should be in circulation anymore.

Does that include reserves, too?

-
Jim

"Like" - The modern day comma
Good bye, my friends. You are missed.

[Spizzzarko 0]

This is a reply to all of you:

Those of you who are telling this person that she should goto a ZP canopy are out of your minds!!!
She can't land what's she's got so let speed it up for her, and see how she deals with that! What the hell are you people thinking?


True F-111 with 900 jumps does not land like new f-111. F-111 tends to start losing performance in the flare after 20 to 30 jumps, but a properly sized F-111 canopy even with 900 jumps should still have enough flare for her to have a decent landing. If anything maybee she should upsize!!!

[SkydiveNFlorida 0]

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She can't land what's she's got so let speed it up for her, and see how she deals with that! What the hell are you people thinking?

They are thinking she might get better landings. I am no expert, but i've been on a large f111 hybrid (220sf or so) once as a student and had shit landings, I went back to a 190zp and like magic, right on, no problems. Sometimes zp and speed do help a little with landings you know

Angela.

[Spizzzarko 0]

A hybrid canopy has a ZP top skin. And yes more speed = more lift, but do we need people with low jump numbers going faster, when they can't land slowly?


Chachi

F-111 still has it's place in this sport. You are saying that you would put students out on Big Sabres. First of all ZP has a tendance of opening a little slower than F-111. I don't need a student cutting away from a Snivel thinking that its a streamer. Second. Look at the cost of ZP canopy's over F-111 canopy's. ZP costs more. I'm sure your DZo would find a way to delegate that cost on to you. Third. ZP is faster than F-111 canopy's, so you are saying that you would extend the first jump course even longer and adding more clutter into the students head for them to think about when they are putting their life on the line (in their own minds), and they are spun up on adrenaline! How much do you actually recall from your first jump?
Fourthly Big f-111 canopys usually have milder stall characteristics than those of ZP canopy's (the SAbres). How many times have you seen students flare high? How many times have you seen students turn themselves into line twists by yanking and banking on the togles? I had a friend die because he cranked himself into line twists down low earlier this year? What kind of notoriety will your DZ get when you start to kill students, just because you didn't "like" f-111 canopy's. Do you see where I'm heading with this?

[chachi 0]

Quote

This is a reply to all of you:

Those of you who are telling this person that she should goto a ZP canopy are out of your minds!!!
She can't land what's she's got so let speed it up for her, and see how she deals with that! What the hell are you people thinking?


True F-111 with 900 jumps does not land like new f-111. F-111 tends to start losing performance in the flare after 20 to 30 jumps, but a properly sized F-111 canopy even with 900 jumps should still have enough flare for her to have a decent landing. If anything maybee she should upsize!!!

Yes she should go to a canopy with performance. I do not simply mean speed performance, I mean a Sabre simply lands better and easier than most F111 canopies. It provides more brakes and more lift, for a better landing. Also I do not believe F111 canopies are very good transitional canopies as they do nothing when people go from that to any 170 ior less ZP canopy, which is what everyone will be jumping.

Also many F111 canopies can be completely done at
8-900 jumps providing almost no lift unless the flare is timed perfect to stall the canopy at ground level.

Take my advice for what it is, advice, but many dropzones are training students on lightly loaded Sabres for many beneficial reasons.

~Chachi

[Spizzzarko 0]

DZ's may be called progressive by doing this, but it doesn't change the facts that, ZP canopys are faster than that of F-111, and in my experience, students need to be afforded every opportunity to survive the jump. Putting them out on faster canopy's is not doing the student justice.

[SkydiveNFlorida 0]

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DZ's may be called progressive by doing this, but it doesn't change the facts that, ZP canopys are faster than that of F-111, and in my experience, students need to be afforded every opportunity to survive the jump. Putting them out on faster canopy's is not doing the student justice.

That is your opinion and you are entitled to that. I made my first 8 jumps on a Sabre 190 and did ok. I went up to Deland and they put me on a 220 or 230 zp hybrid, and I had shit landings... little/no flare/lift. I don't know if that was because it was part f111, probably had lots of jumps, or just because it was bigger. Either way, more speed and performance added up to better landings for me.

jme. I am not an instructor, but it is obvious that many disagree with you or they'd all be using cheap f111 canopies on students. I'm glad that the dz I learned at (Sebastian) was a part of the current decade and has zp student canopies.

Angela.

[rob 0]

I've recently gone from a 240 F111 to a 150 Sabre via a Beta 180 (160lb exit weight). I've found that my landings and accuracy have improved markedly since downsizing onto a ZP canopy. I'm thinking that the improved responsiveness means the landings aren't so 'vague'/mushy as they can be on a bigger F111 canopy and set up is easier, and the extra speed provides more energy for a decent flare. That said, I wouldn't want to go any smaller for some time.

[DrewEckhardt 0]

Quote

This is a reply to all of you:

Those of you who are telling this person that she should goto a ZP canopy are out of your minds!!!

She can't land what's she's got so let speed it up for her, and see how she deals with that!

Airspeed is determined entirely by drag and trim. Parachutes differing only in construction material (ZP, 0-3 CFM, or ZP topskin) will have the same speed.

A Sabre 190 will be no faster than a PD 190.

[Kramer 0]

Hey, I don't have many more jumps than you, and the only reason I'm even replying to this is because I was in your exact shoes at one time with my PD 210 (ask Phreezone )

Anyway, I've tweaked that thing where now my landings are BEAUTIFUL. Like yours, it's pretty old and doesn't have much life left on it, but after some trial and error I've gotten it to the point where most landings are like stepping off of a Kleenex into the ground.

How do I flare? I kinda have a nice long slow flare. I don't wait till the last second and jam the toggles down or anything, I just slowly start bringing the toggles down in one nice fluid motion at around 15 feet (play with it until you get the feel for it). Usually about the time my hands reach my waist, I touch down with a tip-toe landing.

The fact that it's not fun at all to fly aside, I love my PD. Easy as hell to pack, and (since I figured out my problems) VERY smooth landings. Good luck!

The FAKE KRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAMER!!!!!!!!!

[skykittykat 0]

Hi VampireGirl, my two cents worth!

Next time you are up at the dz, speak to an instructor whom you trust and respect there (or the CCI) and ask his opinion and ask him to watch your landings (hop'n'pops are great for this). As for downsizing and the type of canopy to go for, sort out your current worries first.

When you do downsize, seek advice from someone who knows you and your canopy skills.

Have a great time at Brian's canopy course and if you don't get to jump too much between now and then, he will be able to give you loads of advice, plus he is very knowledgeable and approachable.

Liz

[mfnren 0]

Just advice, It might not be right for her situation. I have a similar csnopy at low wingoading (.94/1) and jump at a high altitude. The advice should be doubted and analyzed.

[VampireGirl 0]

Dear All

Just wanted to say thanks for all the info, I have been reading and digesting it all over the last few days and it sure gave me lots to think about and lots of questions to ask people.

Thanks a lot and I wish you all happy and safe landings.

XX

Sarah

www.sneale-create.com

[chachi 0]

Quote

Dear All

Just wanted to say thanks for all the info, I have been reading and digesting it all over the last few days and it sure gave me lots to think about and lots of questions to ask people.

Thanks a lot and I wish you all happy and safe landings.

XX

Sarah

Probably one of the smartest things to do when gaining information from people that do not know you, your skills , or your canopy. Digest, ask questions. Smart girl.

~Chachi

[Beverly 1]

Hey Sarah,

There are a lot of differences between guys and girls with landing canopies.
Chat to a female instructor or more experienced jumper on the landings.
I was also put onto an old technology canopy at 45 jumps and was ready to quit, as everyone told me it was me and not the canopy, until I bought a new Hornet and Voila, the canopy can land.
Girls are more careful and reserved under canopy, and now that you have a thing about landing, you probably dread the landings and tense up before impact.
Have a look to see if you can find a canopy that better suites your wing loading (1.0), take a deep breath and concentrate on the landing as the second part of the skydive. Get some confidence in yourself that you can do this. Don't worry about what you look like to every one else, just concentrate non you.
It will come right and you will love it.
Just don't quit.
Good luck.

Cheers Bev

I think true friendship is under-rated

Twitter: @Dreamskygirlsa

[Levin 0]

Hey VampireGirl. Here's my bit of advice. Throw out everything everybody has said and totally forget it.

There is nothing wrong with your canopy. If you are having trouble landing then have a >knowledgable< canopy pilot watch your landing to see if your flare is deflecting the tail. If not then have a rigger adjust your brake settings. Also practice with your flare up high to get a better feel of how your canopy is responding to the input you give it. Even though you have only been able to flare your canopy on landing 73 times, you can do a hop and pop from 13k and practice your flare 73 times in one jump.

And to the rest of you that have replied to this thread. If yall do not feel like yall are qualified to give advice then don't give it. Think about the problem this person is having. Little girl on a BASE sized canopy who hasn't really had a good landing yet. And yall tell her to downsize and go with ZP. What's wrong with you people? Spizzzarko is right. And to VampireGirl, when you do decide you want a different canopy and if you aren't completely confident in your landings then don't get another canopy. That's a BASE wingloading and BASE jumpers successfully land themselves in crazy places all the time with F-111 canopies. And if you are still determined to get a ZP canopy then get one the same size as the one you have now.

Have your brakes adjusted and you likely won't need a canopy control course to fix your landings.

[Spizzzarko 0]

Thank you.