Landing rules

[Flan 0]

To all of you -small canopy owners- out there.

A week ago I was training with my 4way team at the north of Chile (Arica City). There we were sharing a CASA with the Chilean Army team while both teams were being coached.

On every load my team exited first since we had the smallest canopies (mine is a Velocity 90) and therefore we had to be the first ones landing. But in one of the loads one of the military guys -flying a Factor 130- started to make spiralling turns to lose altitude and suddenly appeared flying a little lower at my left side at really close range. At the moment I was flying at 700ft and preparing my self to make my front riser left turn. There were 3 alternatives:

1.- Make the turn without knowing when he was going to make his and risking to crash him from above....not very healthy for neither of us.

2.- Make a right turn, which was not "possible" since a left pattern entrance was stablished for every jump since the begining of the camp and there were 7 other canopies entering from the right.

3.- Continue flying and make an upwind landing with over 9 knots of wind.

In the split seconds that I had to make a decision a took #3 and after a few secs I found my self straggling to maintain a good flare but at the end I had drop the landing gear and of course I couldn´t keep up with the high speed so I fuc......fell and smashed my self on the desert. Thank god nothing happened to me -besides an ego fracture-

I´m pretty confident that I took the right decision but I´m opened to any remarks that anyone out there may have.

My message is: Always respect the order of landing and traffic patterns. Never try to catch up with a smaller canopy, NEVER. In short: always keep in mind and put to practice the most basic rules of skydiving, no matter how experienced you may think you are.

Flan

[Brains 2]

I ahd the same thing happen to me and a friend of mine on Sunday eveining. Larger canopies (150+) spiraling down into our landing patterns, then proceeding to do S turns on final. I had to abort about 90 degrees into my 180 and flat turn into final. Not a big deal, i don't have to swoop every landing. The bad part was she came out of nowhere and was criss-crossing my flight path so i had no idea where she was going to end up.

Never look down on someone, unless they are going down on you.

[Remster 24]

Thats what I was thinking too... Couldnt you flat turn? Hard to know for us without having been there....

Remster

[TALONSKY 0]

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To all of you -small canopy owners- out there.

A week ago I was training with my 4way team at the north of Chile (Arica City). There we were sharing a CASA with the Chilean Army team while both teams were being coached.

On every load my team exited first since we had the smallest canopies (mine is a Velocity 90) and therefore we had to be the first ones landing. But in one of the loads one of the military guys -flying a Factor 130- started to make spiralling turns to lose altitude and suddenly appeared flying a little lower at my left side at really close range. At the moment I was flying at 700ft and preparing my self to make my front riser left turn.

Ok, I am sure my opinion will not be popular but why do you "have to land first". I know that with higher wingloadings you come out of the sky alot quicker than the lighter loaded canopies but there are alot of ways you can still land safely after some lower wingloaded canopies. I mean it is not everyone elses concern that you are loading your canopy that much. I have had to abort more than my share of landings do to a lower and slower canopy being where I wanted to be but it is not there fault that they where in my way when they could not see me above them. I find this attitude that the higher windloaded canopies "must land first" to be BS. Dude, if you see someone in your way just go into deep brakes or flat turn. We all share the air and if that means every other HP landing will have to be aborted because of someone lower and slower so be it, just because we choose to have a high performance, high wingloaded canopy does not give us special rights.
Kirk

[kevlarsxs 0]

Check out Skydive Chicago's "9 golden rules"

"GIVE 'EM THE AXE" - LIZZY

[Jimbo 0]

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Ok, I am sure my opinion will not be popular but why do you "have to land first".

I was wondering the same thing. CrossKeys is a pretty busy DZ with its fair share of swoopers - some are names you would know. It's rare that they have problems in the pattern. It's not rare, however, for them to pull a little higher and hang out in brakes while waiting for everyone else to land or to slip into the perfect spot in the pattern. Seems to me that it's the young, inexperienced swoopers who generally complain about the slower canopies being in their way.

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I find this attitude that the higher windloaded canopies "must land first" to be BS.

Amen.

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We all share the air and if that means every other HP landing will have to be aborted because of someone lower and slower so be it, just because we choose to have a high performance, high wingloaded canopy does not give us special rights.

And again, amen.

-
Jim

"Like" - The modern day comma
Good bye, my friends. You are missed.

[ManBird 0]

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Continue flying and make an upwind landing with over 9 knots of wind.

I think you meant downwind. If not, then I'm confused.

It does sound like your swoop was hosed, I'll give you that. While I don't think people should spiral through the pattern (mainly below 1,000'), I also feel that "low and slow" always needs respect to avoid a collision, regardless of what got them there. If they did something they shouldn't, like spiraled too low or got into traffic in a high performance area (if a DZ has a separate HP landing area/swoop pond), then it's probably best to just land like you would had they exited before you, and maybe have a polite chat, asking them to respect traffic better.

I do find your decision strange based on this:

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At the moment I was flying at 700ft and preparing my self to make my front riser left turn

If you decided to abort your front riser turn at or near 700', then why did you choose option #3? That's plenty of altitude for a wide, flat 180 that'd allow you to fly around the lower canopy without landing against the direction of traffic or breaking the pattern. Besides, you should be able to safely fly in traffic and land downwind with whatever canopy you're putting over your head. Not to come across as harsh, but it sounds like you didn't do either one.

It sounds like you either didn't have outs planned all that well, or you didn't choose the best way to abort. You just turned an inconvenient situation into a dangerous one. From the ground, no one can tell that you aborted a swoop -- it'll just look like you blatantly landed in the wrong direction. It does sound like you were hosed a bit by this other canopy, but getting passed at 700' is hardly getting cutoff -- come up with a better plan. If someone from the group behind you has a Cypres fire or lowish reserve ride, you might have the exact same scenario, but with absolutely no reason to be upset.

Don't take these criticisms personally -- I don't even know you. But based on what you've written here, it sounds like you don't have a lot of argument against the low person.

"¯"`-._.-¯) ManBird (¯-._.-´"¯"

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[ccowden 0]

I do the same.

I almost always pull higher than most and hang in brakes until the airspace is clear, or atleast not congested. If I HAVE to get down first, I will, but as a rule I give the right away to the canopies that are flying conventional patterns and go out of my way to look out for them.

[piisfish 135]

I think his point was that they had defined exit orders according to wingloading in order to separate as much as possible the teams at landing, so they could avoid this case of slower canopies under...

And the military guy with his 130 spiraled and was not at the place he should have been...

There is a symptom, I don't know how to call it... We have it at our DZ... Description : 10 people in a Porter, several groups, different wingloadings... each and every time you have around 8 of them landing nearly at the same time and at the same place...

WTF, the landing area is huge, the airspace is infinite... Why do you all have to land at the same time ???

I try to be first or last... Yes, I like to give speed to my landings. I don't like to give speed and having to slalom between people. I hate to have to land in middle of a croud who don't look around and are focused on "should I flare now or in 2ft ???"

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[rwieder 0]

in the end, it doesn't matter what the situation is, the "low man/woman" inder canopy has the right of way. in the event you don't make an adjustment, no matter who's fault it is, your just as dead/injured. complaining won't help the matter.



Richard

[ianmdrennan 2]

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"low man/woman" inder canopy has the right of way.

Yep. This of course does not mean that you have the right to fly inconsiderately and screw everyone elses approach up. That's where the problem lies. I can't tell you how many people I've counted spiralling mindlessly in the pattern trying to get down first when there's no hope of them doing so. It shows a lack of understanding of what's going on around you.

9/10 people don't start flying their pattern from the time they open. The pattern isn't some set of lines you follow from 1000 ft (or whenever they "start"), instead it's finding your place in the traffic so that everyone has clear airspace on their approach.

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complaining won't help the matter.

True, but if I buzzed by you in freefall doing something dangerous I bet you'd say something. Likewise you cannot ignore actions that endanger others under canopy because freefall is over.

Blues,
Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[piisfish 135]

I am gonna print this and show it at my DZ. Thank you

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[rwieder 0]

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Yep. This of course does not mean that you have the right to fly inconsiderately and screw everyone elses approach up. That's where the problem lies

110% agreement here, no arguement. i've been on both sides of this spectrum, and an arguement can be made for both sides. i've had other skydivers fall past me while in the saddle at 1800 AGL at over 120 MPH, the point being always expect the unexpected. always have a back-up plan as well.

Edit:

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True, but if I buzzed by you in freefall doing something dangerous I bet you'd say something

as i mentioned this has happened to me twice so far while in the saddle, other sky divers in free fall not yet deployed falling past me at high rates of speed. and no, i didn't confront them, i figured the gene pool would thin itself out without my help.

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Likewise you cannot ignore actions that endanger others under canopy because freefall is over

if i were to approach every situation in which i observed someone doing some thing ignorant, i would spend all day arguing, and none of the day sky diving. That's what the S&TA's are for. (i know, i know....*cough...cough*) my main point being not litigious, but one of heightned awareness.





Richard

[ianmdrennan 2]

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my main point being not litigious, but one of heightned awareness.

And that is a great point, I think we're saying similar things just in a different manner.
Stay safe.

Blues,
Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[kaerock 1]

Brian Germain had some interesting points about congestion and traffic that I believe are pertinent here. When navigating traffic getting to your setup point you have to beware of 'courtesy traps'. This is where you wait for people too long that you screw yourself out of your swoop or a safe landing situation. He also suggests that you can fly aggressively, letting people know that you are fast, you will be coming in fast and to give you room. Now, this is all well and good, sometimes. You will make enemies fast by giving people the 'get the fuck out of my way' attitude under canopy. But sometimes, people are inconsiderate, deliberately or not, and sometimes you need to remind them 'I am fast, watch out for me.' When you have a bunch of regulars at a DZ everyone knows who's fast, who to let go ahead and who you can pass. When new folks, usually one good talking-to fixes the problem , for example, "hey, you might not want to spiral down because the faster guys get held up..." All in all, don't be afraid to fly aggressively, when it's safe(er), also be careful not to be too nice. Any of you guys with lots of jumps and big-DZ jumpers have any thoughts?

Also, does anyone else notice that a consistent point of contention during swoop setup usually happens with larger seven-celled canopies on a straight-in approach or is it just me? I usually seem to get hung-up or have to bail when they're in my optimal swoop path. It's hard to float above them and they are out over the landing area before I am usually.

-R

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my main point being not litigious, but one of heightned awareness.

And that is a great point, I think we're saying similar things just in a different manner.
Stay safe.

Blues,
Ian

You be the king and I'll overthrow your government. --KRS-ONE

[Flan 0]

I can see your point, but in this case there was a pre-established landing order and also pulling altitudes and this guy didn´t respect neither of those two things. Besides, it doesn´t make any sense spiralling down to catch up -and fly among- with smaller canopies that are lower than you and preparing to land.

Flan

[TALONSKY 0]

From your description it does sound like this guy was not very aware of the landing pattern but in the end all he did was get below you and mess up your high performance landing set up. It is not a safety issue or it should not have been if you were at 700 feet AGL, you still have plenty of altitude and time to do a flat turn or some other kind of out. I truly feel we share the sky it does not mean that the ones that have high wingloading should have special rules. At best I would have went over and mentioned to this guy that he should keep in mind the guys that do the high performance landings eat up a lot of altitude and start their final turn around 600 feet or so. I know that when I was at a low wingloading I was aware of the alitude loss the high wing loaded canopies loss but nothing I think truly gets it across until your sitting in the saddle at a high wing loading.
Kirk

[rehmwa 2]

Always be ready to do a half brake landing or a straight in or flat turns, etc if you're boxed out. A swoop is a treat, not a 'right' and if you can't be good enough to make a 'normal' or non-swooping landing, then maybe you aren't ready for the canopy you have. Correcting one person who hosed your approach might help at that moment or day, but there's always someone else later.

Our really dedicated swoopers either get out low (early) to ensure a clean airspace, or they open higher and hold brakes if they go all the way up and wait for the path to clear. It's never an issue.

And exit order shouldn't have to do with canopy loading, it should have to do with wind speed/direction layers (kallend has a great model). If someone wants to get out first at our DZ (on a low/no wind day) in order the land first, then they are likely full of shit, because they aren't open closest to the landing area, usually one of the middle groups is - no kidding. The first out have to either fly back or not leave on the green in order to get a selfish spot. no thanks

share the air and learn to deal and compensate

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Fast 0]

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And exit order shouldn't have to do with canopy loading, it should have to do with wind speed/direction layers (kallend has a great model).

In this case though it was two 4-way groups that were going out first. In that case wouldn't it be prudent to put the guys with sub-100 canopies out first so they don't have to float a long time to wait for the others to land thier slower canopies. The exit order at that point doesn't make much of a difference because they are both 4-way RW groups. There has to be something else to fall back on. Maybe which team pulls higher? dunno if there was a difference there.


I don't know, it seems that there is more to consider beyond the typical RW/FF/whatever at what size group when you have two or more groups of equal size.

~D
Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me.
Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka

[Jimbo 0]

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In that case wouldn't it be prudent to put the guys with sub-100 canopies out first so they don't have to float a long time to wait for the others to land thier slower canopies.

Why? Adequate separation and heads-up canopy flight should make this whole thing a non-issue.

-
Jim

"Like" - The modern day comma
Good bye, my friends. You are missed.

[rehmwa 2]

I'm talking about horizontal separation due to the plane's line of flight on a good low wind swooping day. Not necessarily Fast's scenario. Fast seems to think that both 4-way groups will open at the same altitude (never rely on vertical separation) and that's a bad assumption to maintain. In his mind, the 5-10 second delay in exit times would actually mean something in terms of vertical separation. Nuts.

I'll try again - of the 2 4-way teams, the 10 people will open at different altitudes because that's the way it works (hopefully all 10 between 2K and 3K). No guarantee that the first team will be lower than the second team. Likely a mix - look around on opening any jump.

The first team will open short if the spot is good (no wind day assumption here. Since the day was 9 mph, I don't see any super swooping action anyway unless they are downwinding it on purpose - which he wasn't). The second team will likely open right over the landing area. They can spiral down and land first much easier than the first group can hold to get back and then spiral down.

Having to get out first usually has nothing to do with physics, it normally has to do with ego. But I don't think that's the case in Fast's scenario, these guys seemed to mean well and with some wind down below, I understand the logic since they would like have have exited pretty close to straight up if the uppers were faster than 9 mph.

So Fast wanting out first on a day that's crappy to swoop? Sure, good idea.

But I like Jimbo's response better for all days, especially for nice low wind days.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Fast 0]

> I'm talking about horizontal separation due to the plane's
> line of flight on a good low wind swooping day.

Ok, and if you wait 5-10 seconds between groups (Which is typical) the horizontal seperation will be just fine regardless of which group goes out first. They are both 4-ways on thier belly.

> Not necessarily Fast's scenario.

hmm?

> Fast seems to think that both 4-way groups will open at the
> same altitude (never rely on vertical separation) and that's a bad
> assumption to maintain.

Like you say below everyone in general (barring, prematures, cutaways, low pulls, high pulls, and anything else that might go wrong on a jump) will be open between 2k and 3k unless one of the groups has some less experienced people who are specifically pulling higher in which case between the two groups everyone would probally be open between 2k-4k

> In his mind, the 5-10 second delay in exit times would actually
> mean something in terms of vertical separation. Nuts.

How about no? The point I was making really didn't have much to do with that and to anyone else reading this: Never rely on vertical seperation!

> I'll try again - of the 2 4-way teams, the 10 people will open at different
> altitudes because that's the way it works (hopefully all 10 between 2K and 3K).
> No guarantee that the first team will be lower than the second team.

Yeah, no guarantee, I don't disagree.

> Likely a mix - look around on opening any jump.

I do on every jump.

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Having to get out first usually has nothing to do with physics, it normally has to do with ego. But I don't think that's the case in Fast's scenario, these guys seemed to mean well and with some wind down below, I understand the logic since they would like have have exited pretty close to straight up if the uppers were faster than 9 mph.

Ok I guess?

> So Fast wanting out first on a day that's crappy to swoop? Sure, good idea.

I am going to guess that there is some sarcasm in that.

Either way its acedemic. From a freefall seperation stand point it doesn't make any difference at all which group goes out first. They are the same size and same discipline. I really wish people wouldn't assume that I don't understand that principle.

When it comes down to it though, all things being equal (which they aren't always, sometimes people feel the need to spiral down through the pattern, sometimes people are holding in breaks, sometimes there are cutaways, whatever it may be) the guys on the sub 100sqft canopies are comming down faster. They will be on the ground faster and have a harder time trying to hold and stay above the people who are flying larger canopies. I guess that the question is whats more convient and safe for the specific situation.

I don't think that there has to be one size fits all answer for every day. If there are two groups out first and it doesn't matter freefall wise which ones goes first whats the point in making it harder on either one, to me thats when the ego starts talking.


When it comes down to it, it doesn't matter. Like I said, this discussion is purely acedemic. If people pay attention to what they are doing when flying a canopy it mostly doesn't matter canopy wise who gets out first, it seems to be a convenience issue.


p.s. Also, as a matter of point I want to say. I was posing what I said as somewhat of a question. You sure did take a nasty tone with me. Oh well, I guess that is a fault of the internet forum as a means of communication.

and I am just here to learn not prove you wrong. Which is why I made the post in the first place.

~D
Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me.
Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka

[davelepka 4]

Here are some general comments on this thread.

1. Always have a plan B. If traffic shows up, use plan B. The thing about plan B is that it's built into every swoop approach you make. If you are at 700ft, ready to make a left 270, and you have a traffic issue, go to deepish brakes, do a flat 90 left, and check traffic again for a possible 180 approach. If traffic is still a problem, another flat 90 left will have you set up for a 90 approach, all the way around to a straight into the wind landing.

2. Traffic is always a problem. Every fast canopy pilot should go right into deep brakes, and count canopies upon opening. Take an inventory of who's where, and what they're flying. Look for an opening in the traffic where you can fit in your swoop. If that means getting down and landing first, you can easily do that. If you need to wait, and let some traffic clear, you're already in brakes, how handy.

3. Traffic is NOT everywhere. It may seem like it, but if you run into trouble with your preferred landing area, often times you can get a clear lane elsewhere, and salvage your swoop. Landing in a 'student' area (if DZ rules allow) is an easy out, as the student canopies are slow, and easy to work around.

4. Attempting to set a landing order, or linking the exit order to the landings is a watse of time. Set your exit order according to DZ rules and accepted safety procedures. Enjoy your jump, and worry about your swoop after you (and everyone else) is safely under canopy. Lets face it, for those who these rules apply (swoopers with little canopies), you are supposed to be experienced and accomplished canopy pilots. Put those skills to work, and make your situation what you want on your own. You should all know by now that relying on others to perform a certain way in order for you do your thing is a waste of time.

5. Swooping and traffic manegement are hard to do. To those who are learning to swoop, you may have to trade a couple thousand feet of freefall, for a clear landing area in which to practice. Break off at 6k, and open by 4k will give you all the room you need to do what you want to do. Now when I say open at 4k, thats followed by 3k of sitting in deep brakes, letting the rest of the load get down. Any way you look at it, if you are focused on traffic, you're not focused on your approach (and vice versa).

[ManBird 0]

Right on, Dave. Good stuff.

"¯"`-._.-¯) ManBird (¯-._.-´"¯"

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