270 Set up

[NewClearSports 0]

Any comments on how best to set up a 270 carving turn (Safety wise) with a left hand landing pattern?
The debate is weather to fly the left hand pattern and do a right 270 on the final leg, or to fly the carving 270 left and merge keeping everyone in front of you.

[D22369 0]

with the right 270 you fly mostly with the traffic, Closing speeds are not as extreme as head to head.... if you go against the left hand pattern at most dz's you will get a talkin to from the S&TA, owner, or the other jumpers who see you approaching head on (They dont seem to apreciate this at 600') been there, got the talkin to........

Roy

They say I suffer from insanity.... But I actually enjoy it.

[chrisgr 0]

Assuming left hand pattern, turning right 270 deg means that you are losing sight of traffic behind you. You are also turning in the opposite direction of other canopies.

Doesn't that pose a significant risk also?

[webracer 0]

I feel if you're flying in any airspace where other canopies will/could be, fly the same pattern as they are required to do. At least they can expect you will only turn left. If you're competing or doing a hop&pop, that's a good time to do a right if you like.

Troy

I am now free to exercise my downward mobility.

[freeflydrew 0]

Very Long Post!

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Any comments on how best to set up a 270 carving turn (Safety wise) with a left hand landing pattern?
The debate is weather to fly the left hand pattern and do a right 270 on the final leg, or to fly the carving 270 left and merge keeping everyone in front of you.

Ok... I've been putting a lot of thought into the best / safest way to set up for the left hand 270 (assuming your DZ is flying a left hand pattern). This is what I've come up with...

**I fly a stiletto 107 loaded around 1.8 and usually begin the 270 somewhere around 600 feet? So any specific altitudes I mention are not specific, simply descriptive... ok?***

Before I started swooping I was taught to begin my landing pattern around 1000 feet by flying the downwind leg of the setup... Somewhere around 600 or 500 feet I was taught to initiate a left hand 90 degree turn for the base leg of the pattern... Then around 300 feet initiate another left hand turn into the final approach.

It seems to me that this is what the majority of non-swoopers doing in their landing patterns, so this is the pattern that you'll need to negotiate with when you set up for the 270 swoop.

If the DZ flies a left hand pattern, then I think that the safest and most predictable direction to swoop (for the non-swoopers) is left handed... It's also good for the low jump number students who are taught to fly a left hand pattern, so after they watch you, they don't think that they should suddenly start flying any pattern that they like, right?

Ok, on to the 270 pattern...

The actual swoop / dive part is the very last stage of the process, so let's pretty much forget about it for now...

Back to the pattern... Just because we swoop, doesn't mean that we shouldn't fly a predictable and safe pattern. The only difference is that instead of ending the pattern by touching down on the ground, we are going to end the pattern by initiating our swoop...

So at around 2000 or 2500 feet (rather than 1000 feet) begin the downwind part of the landing pattern...

Around 2000-1500 feet make the left turn for the base leg...

Around 1500-1000 feet turn into the wind for what would be the final...

So far nothing is different about the pattern except that you've started it much higher...

You should be coming right up to the spot where you want to be to:

-Initiate the 360 dive
OR
-Turn 90 left to set up for the left hand 270 dive
OR
-Turn 180 left to set up for the left hand 180 dive
OR
-Turn 270 left for the 90 left hand dive
OR
-Bail on the Swoop and fly it straight in.

I've tried many different patterns and techniques and this is the one that I think is the safest and most predictable... And it leaves you with "outs" all the way around! I tend to fly it with moderate brakes, and I feel like I'm able to make a visual check of all the other canopies around me.

-drew

Edited because I can can can

[twnsnd 1]

I would think that if you had enough open airspace to safely do the turn, traffic would not be an issue.

-We are the Swoophaters. We have travelled back in time to hate on your swoops.-

[marks 0]

im thinkin that if there is too many canopies in the air then you should move your swoop somwhere else....

there is alot of inexperienced canopie pilots at most dz's that stick to there patternn

ya i can fly around them,. but somtimes your going to scare the hell out of them and then they might do somthing stupid........

be smart.. if there is traffic. use the alternate area... if there is no alternate then make sure you get down before them or after them..... or use a left hand pattern and do a 90......

[D22369 0]

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Assuming left hand pattern, turning right 270 deg means that you are losing sight of traffic behind you. You are also turning in the opposite direction of other canopies.

Doesn't that pose a significant risk also?

doing a 270 in traffic poses LOTS of risk..... Best bet would be to take it somewhere less congested.
Roy

They say I suffer from insanity.... But I actually enjoy it.

[petetheladd 0]

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You should be coming right up to the spot where you want to be to:

-Initiate the 360 dive
OR
-Turn 90 left to set up for the left hand 270 dive
OR
-Turn 180 left to set up for the left hand 180 dive
OR
-Turn 270 left for the 90 left hand dive

Just a note : dont do this when canopies are close to you and remember for beginners there Idea of close is a lot different than yours - scareing the bejazus out of them usually causes them to act erratically.

Swoopers have to sometimes accept that traffic will prevent them doing their swoop.

Someone 360' ing a final landing when I'm parallel to them on final gives me the heebee geebees.
Its as bad as a s-turning sashaying large canopy blocking you on final

No, Not without incident

[obi 0]

I'ld be glad if I had to worry about this. In most places I've jumped (and that is quite a lot of places all over the planet), the majority of the people just land like in a freaking ZOO. Keep your eyes open and don't expect anyone to stick to a pattern.
Besides that I do the left hand pattern, but finish it off with a right 270 because I think that is the way that goes the most with the flow.
Obi

[freeflydrew 0]

The initial question was how best to setup for a 270 swoop...

Swooping on its own carries all sorts of traffic issues...I'm guessing/assuming that homeboy on the velocity 96 who started the thread is heads up enough to know not to dive the canopy with other canopies close to him...

And the last option, which you didn't quote was Bailing the swoop and landing straight in...

Plain and Simple- If you don't have open air to swoop, don't do it! But if you are going to do it, try to set up with a nice, predictable pattern (see previous post).

I still love you Petetheladd
see you at the ranch after it stops raining and the clouds clear...

-drew

[petetheladd 0]

I'm with ya Drew - not refuting your advice just adding an addendum.

I only left out the last option as that is flying the standard pattern and should not cause any problems.

DAmn - here comes the rain again , methinks this weekend is a washout

See ya up there next time

No, Not without incident

[NewClearSports 0]

Thanks for everyone's suggestions. I see that some say go left and some say go right. I think what everyone must understand is that I do a "Carving Turn" not a snappy 270 dive. I do the 270 because it is the safest with lots of outs. I did 180 for a while and realized that they break legs more then any other turn. Watched a guy break his femor with a low 180. Also everyone should know I land in "The box" wich is a North or South landing only (90% time crosswind) for Experienced flyers - Large canopys and students that land into the wind land outside "The Box". I will tell you that I have been doing Left 270 to go with the traffic, but I have had more experieced people tell me I should be doing the right 270 on the final leg as mention by some of you - and I would agree if I was doing a steep diving 270 but I'm not into that right now. I find with the long carving 270 I get just as good a swoop and more accuracy. What it all comes down to is that I just want to do what is best. Everyone should know that I bail with my 270 at least 30% or the time because I'm not confortable with the traffic.
This to me also poses a question about exit order - Should we start thinking about wing loading when thinking about exit order ???
Cheers and blue skies
Mike

[andy2 0]

i've heard WLing discussed applicable to exit order a time or two. Most often when its a low hop/pop, but once or twice on altitude jumps. Although mainly its what type of flying youre doing that dictates exit order (but I agree with you that everything should be accounted for, great or small). But what do I know!?

---------------------------------------------
let my inspiration flow,
in token rhyme suggesting rhythm...

[NeedToJump 0]

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This to me also poses a question about exit order - Should we start thinking about wing loading when thinking about exit order ???

We take wing loading into account when determining exit order. The major factors are discipline, group size, pull altitude but if there's two 4-ways then we take wl into account. I've had a 4-way go out before my 7 way because all 4 of them (and their video flyer) had significantly higher wingloadings than any of us and we felt it would create too much traffic if they opened after us since they would be landing before us regardless. They are all also very very experienced jumpers.

Wind Tunnel and Skydiving Coach http://www.ariperelman.com

[sarge 0]

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I did 180 for a while and realized that they break legs more then any other turn.

Would you be willing to elaborate about that realization?

Please

Beacause I have my own idea about that; I'd just like to hear yours. Thanks

.

--
I'm done with the personally meaningful and philosophical sigs!!

[davelepka 4]

Good question. The truth is a low trun regardless of the degree will break legs (and other bones). It is possible that people doing 180's are less expereinced than those who have progressed to the 270. Less expereince can lead to mistakes and subsequent injury.

Edited because I am a retard, and everything esle I typed has no relevence to this thread what so ever.

[sarge 0]

Hey Dave, How you been?

What I was hoping for was a 'first-hand' from NCS. (no worries!) Reason being that 270's are pretty straight forward for a set-up. I appreciate his inquiry because it seems inspired by a concern for safety and does reinforce the virtues of pattern discipline, traffic awareness and etiquette.

Your observation however approaches the core of a point I was hoping to make. The turn in and of itself is not the issue re:getting broken, except that, 180's are challenging ironically compared to 90's, 270's and 360's. IMO

For one reason, as you have explained; - the experience factor. For example, somebody's got a 90 down inside and out and starts pulling 180's. 90's on the one hand aren't particularly challenging for somebody that has front riser finals working pretty smoothly. 90's can initiate a lot lower that a 180 and can be adjusted rather innocently with toggles. Timing the 90 is rather academic because field-of-view is good and rate of turn is relatively easy to calculate.

On the other hand with regard to the 180:

1) you have to turn your back on your landing area from base

2) because you go straight from downwind to final-or- tweek out a 90 from base to pull the 180 to final

3) and, Altitude (agruably) is a tremendous factor unlike the 90 in calculating rate of turn: thinking way ahead and from behind is like learning to shave using a mirror

I acknowldge that the orginal question had nothing to do with 180's (so whomever decides to cut-n-paste that quote better include:) -I believe 180's are more important as a general concern for set-up's than are 270's.

The problems I have seen and experienced are that pattern management, calculating rate of turn, and target focus are more complicated with 180's than measuring 90, 270 or 360's. Except for the invaluable skills the 180 develops in those areas, I might even suggest the 180 just be blown-off entirely after mastering 90's... but of course I don't.

What concerns me is that 180's get blown-off way before they are mastered and that some/ too many people have learned the painful way how tricky they really are! Which leads me to theorize that there are quite a few pilots flying, " long-carving" 270's because they believe they are safer than 180's.... or something?

.

--
I'm done with the personally meaningful and philosophical sigs!!

[NewClearSports 0]

Why I think 180s are more dangerous.
1. Most often your set up is in the down wind direction as you most likely want to land into the wind, this means your traveling very fast, your canopy is loosing altitude fast (You can maintain alt much better into the wind or crosswind) if you want to land in a specific area and get a nice swoop you really have to be on the ball, and it is all quick decision making.
2. 180s are very dangerous for someone who is programmed to land into the wind. A lot of us are. The panic that can occur when going downwind and being low can make for bad decisions - The broken leg I spoke of happened with someone coming back from a long spot, holding and holding to set up above the spectator area. He was way too low, maybe 150 and he cranked it to woo the crowd or maybe because of panic (He has no memory) but the nose of his canopy and his body hit at the same time.
3. I also think 180's encourage snappy dive turns more then carving turns. If you carve a 180 you get all the speed build up from the downwind leg (at the top) and then it slows down with your landing swoop. *Thought process* I had a crappy swoop - I guess I will turn it a little lower and a little faster - In this case a little 100ft makes a BIG difference.
4. The crosswind 180 has a HUGE difference in altitude loss depending if initiated downwind or upwind. A person might do 3 or 4 crosswind 180s into the wind and have a comfortable set up at say 450 ft. Then get a bad spot and end up on the other side of the DZ for set up and do their crosswind 180 in the downwind direction. Lets hope they don't use the same set-up altitude.
Anyway, I'm not an expert, and I use to do 180's until I had a very close call and Dave Brown and Mike Swanson told me to quit it before I became a fatality. I took their advice very seriously.
Cheers,
Blue ones
Mike

[Hooknswoop 19]

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(You can maintain alt much better into the wind or crosswind)

Your rate of decent under canopy is not affected by which direction you are facing. The only thing wind affects is groundspeed.

Derek

[Jimbo 0]

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(You can maintain alt much better into the wind or crosswind)

Can you explain this? Everything I've been taught, and everything I currently understand tells me that this is not true. I'd like to hear more.

-
Jim

"Like" - The modern day comma
Good bye, my friends. You are missed.

[NewClearSports 0]

I guess I should let everybody know that I have as of this weekend went with the suggested right 270. It is very must like freeflydrew has explained. One should fly the pattern for set up then initiate the landing not fly the carving 270 through the pattern. The deciding factor was that the right 270 can be done outside the pattern in clear air space - Once it was explained to me thoroughly (With the drawing) it made a lot of sense. I do make sure I look over my shoulder and initiate my fist 90 conservatively.

Thanks everyone for teaching me something new..

[NewClearSports 0]

Sorry you are both Right!!
What I shoud have said in place of "Maintain Alt" is "Hold"
I like to hold in 3/4 brakes to get to my set up spot at the right altitude. When going into the wind I can apply more break and let my canopy sink to get lower, or let up (Speed up) and get to my spot sooner to have more altitude. When going down wind setting up with 3/4 brakes or full flight doesn't seem to make much difference when you get to your spot - Its like you have to take what you got once you are there.
Anyway I hope this makes sense - Sorry for being a dumbass!!
Is there anyway I can correct that - It was a dumb statement.
Thanks

[sarge 0]

Hey Bro! Welcome, Kudos ok... now;

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[re:the 180]...if you want to land in a specific area and get a nice swoop you really have to be on the ball, and it is all quick decision making.

Please know up front, I AINT BASHING!

...I agree totally

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I also think 180's encourage snappy dive turns more then carving turns

I have a tendency to agree that the, "need for speed" is addictive. It is also harmful and fatal.

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Dave Brown and Mike Swanson told me to quit it before I became a fatality

I'm not going to mention any names... but, I have heard, "they?" also say things like, "It's not what you know ... but what you don't know that will kill you."

Look, you opened a good good discussion.

I think maybe if I heard the advice you had I may have heard it differently. BUT!!! ok, thats just me! To date (knock-on-wood!!!) I have never had, "anyone" ever be that direct with me to say something remotely like, "...told me to quit it before I became a fatality."

Maybe somebody else is reading this stuff and wondering, "yeah? But I'm different, all I need to know is where to set up my 270" (right or left pattern) "...and I'll be fine... those 270's really are easier" [- it seems - to get into a final... nice swoop..yeah,yeah...]

...I say, if you can't master an any count 180... crosswind included, you have no business doing an any count or, "long-carving 270" or whatever...

180's are tough, yes they are!

--
I'm done with the personally meaningful and philosophical sigs!!

[NewClearSports 0]

What concerns me is that 180's get blown-off way before they are mastered and that some/ too many people have learned the painful way how tricky they really are! Which leads me to theorize that there are quite a few pilots flying, " long-carving" 270's because they believe they are safer than 180's.... or something?

I do believe that "Long Carving" 270's are safer then 180s just from what I have watched every weekend at our dz and what I have seen at all the dz's I'v visited.

As a spectator I watch the great 180 swoopers set up overhead and inisiate their steep hook- pointing their canopys straight at the ground - I hold my breath - they pull out at the last second to get this blazing swoop across the grass. Wow! They are exciting to watch - and the excitement is in the dive more then the swoop. The students watch this too - they want to be like Mr. 180 hookturn. They want to learn how to make people hold their breath when they land.

As a spectator I watch the great 270 swoopers set up overhead and inisiate their carve - the speed steadily increases - you can here the wistling of their linesets cut through the air - they come through the gates still leaning in the harness, the canopy still sideways but leveling out - everything is in control, the swoop is not steep but keeps going and going from one end of the pond to the other and they still have enough to pop it up at the end. Everyone is impressed, the students all know they are many 100's of jumps away from ever flying like this. Mr 180 hook thinks he is just as good. He is on the next load.
Mr. 180 hook's adrenalin is pumping, he flies over the pond, everyone is watching, they are all directly below him, he hooks it hard, diving steep, feels its time to let up - still coming in steep 45 deg, get on the toggles - oops too late - bounces off the pond at 50 mph - slams the shoreline, skids across, taking out a camera guy. Stands up and puts his hands in the air - Yea!! Some people cheer - some people shake their heads.

These are just my observations.