270 Set up

[Martini 0]

I had more than one talking to about setting up 180's by coming in downwind and snapping 180 to final, so I "reverted" to a traditional approach (downwind, base, final) followed by a quick dodge 90 right and 180 left. Even though this might seem odd no one ever bitched, the setup is natural and affords a clear view around. Also lets you do a 90 left turn if you set up too low.
I found 270's much harder to set up because our DZ generally flies a left-hand approach and I like left-hand hooks, so I don't do 270's if there is ANY traffic. Also I switched from a Stiletto to a Xaos which dives steeper and longer so I don't need a 270 to get the speed I need. Yet.

Sometimes you eat the bear..............

[NewClearSports 0]

I must clarify - Dave Brown and Mike Swanson gave me much good advise after I did a very snappy (And low) steep 180 dive - I pulled out just in time to save my legs - I thought it was a cool landing, I wasn't hurt, I knew people were holding their breath during that one, but I did not know that had I got on the toggles only 1 second later I would have been severly injured or dead. They did not tell me not to do 180's but to stop with the dangerous behavior - that what I was doing has hurt alot of people (They did not say I would become a fatality, but they did say that many people have died form doing the same sort of things) I condensed I long conversation into this statement. Well since then I have taken a swooping course and now perfer the carving 270 and I'm just gratfull that I didn't stay on the 180 hook program.
You are right that the 90, 180, 270, 360, 720 deg is not what kills it is the decision making, turning low, diving steep, pushing the edge that does. I just think people should know that their are safer ways to have a good swoop then to hook it 180.

[sarge 0]

"These are just my observations."

I hear you man, swoop-on brother

...I never intended to dis 270+'s ... but, I could elaborate about the horrific 270's I've seen or heard of as well... nevermind; 180's really are difficult, we made our point.


.

--
I'm done with the personally meaningful and philosophical sigs!!

[Aylett2004 0]

A good way to think of it is that the canopy is only "aware" of its speed relative to the air around it - it's airspeed is not affected by the wind, only your speed relative to the ground (groundspeed). Think of it like swimming upstream in water that is moving 5 mph, if you are moving at 7 mph relative to the water, then relative to the shore you are moving 2 mph. Now, you turn around and swim downstream, still paddling relative to the water at 7 mph. Only now, you are moving at 12 mph relative to the shore. 5 mph water + 7 mph swimming = 12 mph relative to the shore. But all this time you are moving 7 mph relative to the water.

similarly, your rate of decent is NOT affected by the horizontal airspeed. An exception would be air moving with an upward or downward vector component (thermals, updrafts, downdrafts, etc.) I'm sorry if this is over explaining, I’m a little tired...

[sarge 0]

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...so I "reverted" to a traditional approach (downwind, base, final)

Yeah, its recognizable by other traffic (if applies) Just in case the invisible canopy is out and about maybe he'll/she'll be tuned into your/my intentions; thats what I think about anyway.

Plus, I totally believe in consistent approaches as the way to consistent landings.

I like the "traditional approach"

--
I'm done with the personally meaningful and philosophical sigs!!

[NewClearSports 0]

I like your analigy with the streem, because this is what I am wondering. If you dive into the stream at a 45 deg angle head 1st up-stream you will most certainly hit the bottom faster then if you dive 45 deg head 1st downstream. The fact that you have a surface to deflect the water and that you have momentum (A forward speed) means you will get different results when doing the same manuver up-stream or down-stream.
Yes ???
Therefor I think when the canopy is diving at a 45 - 80 deg angle at 50 mph (The canopy's speed) that you will get different rates of desent wether going with the 7 mph wind (Flow) or against it.
Anyone else know the answer to this?
We need a physics major here!!

[D22369 0]

--->These are just my observations.


They are very accurate observations!! One thing no one has brought up is what mindset are you in when your preparing to hook? If your attention is focused primarily on how much your going to impress everyone then your probably not paying 100% of your attention to 'altitude/traffic/carve/entry/and exit points...... Performance landings require focus to successfully do them again and again without injury or death.

Roy

They say I suffer from insanity.... But I actually enjoy it.

[Hooknswoop 19]

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If you dive into the stream

That would represent going from an air mass that wasn't moving over the ground to an air mass that was moving over the ground, i.e. wind shear.

If a submarine takes on enough ballast to descend at 500 fpm it doesn't matter which direction it is facing, into the current or with the current, it will still descend at 500 fpm.

We fly our canopies in a mass of air, usually that mass is moving over the ground.

Another way to think of it is a fish bowl. The fish swims around at 1 mph and it feels like 1 mph, even if the fish bowl is sitting on your floor board as you do 60 mph down the freeway. The fish's ground speed would be 61 mph if it swam towards the front of the car and 59 mph if it swims toward the trunk of the car. Either way it feels like 1 mph to the fish.

Derek

[Martini 0]

There is no doubt that actual descent rate isn't influenced by wind but something else is going on (optical illusion?). I have found myself way too low after the downwind leg on a windy day on more than one occasion. You would think that you would end up too high if anything because the time is shorter between two equidistant points if your downwind groundspeed is higher than upwind groundspeed, so your descent time and therefore distance is actually less going downwind. I know that many others share this experience simply because it is common belief that you do in fact descend faster going downwind and many folks have told me so (including pilots!). I'll stick to my physics but I'm not willing to die proving the point.
I like the idea of a R.H. hook from the base leg because it fits the flow, keeping in mind a 270 always opposes traffic at some point.

Sometimes you eat the bear..............

[NewClearSports 0]

What about when the car is getting up to speed, accelerating - the fish is affected by that, what about if the car turns a corner - the fish is affected by that, what about if the car puts on its brakes, the fish is affected by that. Momentum is a large factor when one moving mass is contained by another moving mass. Even the fish has an effect on the car. If this fish on the dash weighed a few tons and got scared all of a sudden and started swimming sideways it might knock the car off the road.

[freeflydrew 0]

wow! Fish, car, turning... huh?

What ever happened to just flying it straight in?

Anyhoo,

I know what you mean about setting up the 180 when it's a little windy... You just really have to stay on top of where you are setting up, while maintaining that safe swoop altitude and anticipating the push from the wind.

Know when to say when, and when not to say when...

-drew

[Treejumps 0]

Interesting thread. Here is my 2 cents: If you have to ask how/when/where to do a 270, it is a pretty safe bet that you should not be doing them. 270s look easy because most people who do them have taken the time and jumps required to master 90s and 180's. You will eventually do your 270 too low, and then what? Will your skills and training save you? Not if you have by-passed mastering the skills of 90's and 180's, because you may very well have to stop your turn half way through and bail out for dear life.

The more degrees you turn, the easier to become disoriented. Every hook (carve or dive) is different. Sometimes you dive more, sometimes you turn more, and each is on its own continuum relative to the other. Temperature and humidity make a big difference on dives and turns, and recovery. Trying to learn rear riser landings? Don't do it unless you have total mastery with toggles.

Canopy skills definitely build on each other. Skipping one skill will impact how well or how quickly you learn another. Racing ahead to 270s or 360s is racing to the grave or a wheel chair. Swooping is not a race, it is an endurance game. Slow down and take the time to build a solid foundation of basic skills (90s, 120s, 150s, 180s etc) that will enable you to progress safely into advanced maneuvers.

Tree

[Hooknswoop 19]

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What about when the car is getting up to speed, accelerating - the fish is affected by that, what about if the car turns a corner - the fish is affected by that, what about if the car puts on its brakes, the fish is affected by that. Momentum is a large factor when one moving mass is contained by another moving mass. Even the fish has an effect on the car. If this fish on the dash weighed a few tons and got scared all of a sudden and started swimming sideways it might knock the car off the road.

Large moving air masses don't tend to accelerate, slow down, or turn corners on a level that could even be percieved by a canopy.

We fly within a moving air mass that for practical purposes doesn't change direction or speed.

Derek

[marks 0]

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Interesting thread. Here is my 2 cents: If you have to ask how/when/where to do a 270, it is a pretty safe bet that you should not be doing them. 270s look easy because most people who do them have taken the time and jumps required to master 90s and 180's. You will eventually do your 270 too low, and then what? Will your skills and training save you? Not if you have by-passed mastering the skills of 90's and 180's, because you may very well have to stop your turn half way through and bail out for dear life.

The more degrees you turn, the easier to become disoriented. Every hook (carve or dive) is different. Sometimes you dive more, sometimes you turn more, and each is on its own continuum relative to the other. Temperature and humidity make a big difference on dives and turns, and recovery. Trying to learn rear riser landings? Don't do it unless you have total mastery with toggles.

Canopy skills definitely build on each other. Skipping one skill will impact how well or how quickly you learn another. Racing ahead to 270s or 360s is racing to the grave or a wheel chair. Swooping is not a race, it is an endurance game. Slow down and take the time to build a solid foundation of basic skills (90s, 120s, 150s, 180s etc) that will enable you to progress safely into advanced maneuvers.

Tree

i have to dissagree on this...

i couldnt say i mastered anything as of yet but i spent 700 jumps doing 90's 700-800 jumps doing 180's and now i do 270's. the reason i switch to 270's. is because i start them higher. it is slower and ALOT easier to judge your altatude and alot of ways to fix it if your too high or too low.

[andy2 0]

I have a rather stupidish question about setting up 180s and 270s. Ok, what is a 270, its a 90 degree turn more than a 180. Given that you're carving both (which appears to be the choice for the majority of jumpers working on swooping distance) why not instead of turning 180 degrees to get ready to swoop (keeping in mind you've set up with the flow of traffic so you'd have to turn 180 to land with the flow of traffic on a 180), rather you would simply turn 90 degrees and START a 270 that would finish with you swooping in the direction of everybody elses final landing pattern (presumably into the wind). Doesn't it make more sense to instead of turning 180 flying a bit into traffic then making the dive? The 270 seems to be the safer of the two, how much more dangerous is it if you keep that first 90 degrees (the difference between that and the 180) nice and carving and finish out the last 180 (what your 180 degree carve would be) strong.

Sorry if this doesn't make sense, hopefully someone can understand what I'm saying and set me straight if I'm understanding this wrong.

Thanks!

---------------------------------------------
let my inspiration flow,
in token rhyme suggesting rhythm...

[freeflydrew 0]

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i have to dissagree on this...

i couldnt say i mastered anything as of yet but i spent 700 jumps doing 90's 700-800 jumps doing 180's and now i do 270's. the reason i switch to 270's. is because i start them higher. it is slower and ALOT easier to judge your altatude and alot of ways to fix it if your too high or too low.

It's not exactly clear what part of Tree's response it is that your disagreeing with here... it seems to me that you're reinforcing exactly what Tree was talking about...

You say that you've spent 1500 jumps practicing 90 and 180, and now you're flying the 270 and find it easy to judge your altitude and fix it if necessary, and Tree said practice the 90s and 180s and you will in turn be safer and more heads up... (not exact quotes obviously)

He also said that the more degrees you turn, the easier it is to become disoriented... You don't think so?

I don't think that starting higher necessarily makes the swoop safer...I disagree that it's easier to judge altitude because you're doing a 270, and, I think it's only slower because of the way that you're controlling the swoop. You can turn a 90 wicked slow and totally be on top of your altitude just as safe as a 270... can't you?

I think that all of these are the result of experience and not the number of degrees you choose to turn the canopy in a dive. I do agree that you have a lot more outs from the 270 than you do from the 180... but you have more from the 360,and even more from the 540, and even more from the 720 So does that mean that the 720 is the safest because you start higher, you can turn it slower, and you have a lot more outs if you are too high or too low? <--- see where I'm going here?

It doesn't matter how many outs you have... it's having the heads up to make the decision to take the out

(I prefer to do 270s over any other landings also, I just think that the reasoning you gave is a little off)

(Everytime Tree posts, it's like the beginning of the contraversy! Geeee Wiz!)

[freeflydrew 0]

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The 270 seems to be the safer of the two, how much more dangerous is it if you keep that first 90 degrees (the difference between that and the 180) nice and carving and finish out the last 180 (what your 180 degree carve would be) strong.

There's so many different ways to do a 270, but the way that you describe is exactly the way that I like to do it... Of course, different situations call for different techniques. Sometimes it starts with a harness turn, sometimes is starts with a slow riser turn, sometimes it's a quick snap... it all depends on where you are, both horizontally and vertically.

[marks 0]

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[He also said that the more degrees you turn, the easier it is to become disoriented... You don't think so?

no i dont think that turning more degrees is going to make you disoriented. i think it is easier to judge the 270 than it is a a 180. and it isnt neccassarily that you have more outs... if your low you can cut the corner with the front riser.. if your high you can lengthen the carve to compensate.

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I don't think that starting higher necessarily makes the swoop safer...I disagree that it's easier to judge altitude because you're doing a 270, and, I think it's only slower because of the way that you're controlling the swoop. You can turn a 90 wicked slow and totally be on top of your altitude just as safe as a 270... can't you??

well i have to dissagree .. at least on the starting high does not make it safer.... of course it does.


also of course it is easier to judge your altatude doing a 270. for one.. your higher. and slower..

i would have to agree that you can do 180 or 90 deg turns slow..... but that isnt the way they are done ... is it>?

here i am dissagreeing with 90s.... i apolagise... im really speaking of the 180.. but i still think the 270 is better than a 90... of course ,,, more speed..... equal accuracy.....


edit.... you know... the more i think about it.... you could be right,,,, im just telling you my experience... i really dont know yours.. so haw can i say your wrong...... "wich i dont think" i think that everyone has there own way of thinking and rationalizing..... and mine isnt always the same as everyone elses.....

besides.. i only started doing 270's about 50-75 jumps ago....

later

mark

[marks 0]

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The 270 seems to be the safer of the two, how much more dangerous is it if you keep that first 90 degrees (the difference between that and the 180) nice and carving and finish out the last 180 (what your 180 degree carve would be) strong.

There's so many different ways to do a 270, but the way that you describe is exactly the way that I like to do it... Of course, different situations call for different techniques. Sometimes it starts with a harness turn, sometimes is starts with a slow riser turn, sometimes it's a quick snap... it all depends on where you are, both horizontally and vertically.

im only useing harness.. unless otherwise neccassary.... as if i was too low.. or too high.. then i might.. just might use risers..... but im trying to master it with 100% harness

[freeflydrew 0]

Just to clarify one minor detail in this discussion, and that is "that starting high isn't necessarily safer"... I don't want that to sound like I think that starting low is necessarily safer(of course not)... What I am thinking and not typing, is that what makes a swoop safe isn't the height of it's start, rather the person/pilot who is executing it.

I also agree that it's easier to judge altitude for the 270 than the 180, but I personally think that has come from experience, and not because we've added an additional 90 degrees to the dive... I do however struggle to find the right altitude for a 90, now that I've grown totally used to landing with the 270.

Good discussion!
-drew

[marks 0]

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Just to clarify one minor detail in this discussion, and that is "that starting high isn't necessarily safer"... I don't want that to sound like I think that starting low is necessarily safer(of course not)... What I am thinking and not typing, is that what makes a swoop safe isn't the height of it's start, rather the person/pilot who is executing it.

I also agree that it's easier to judge altitude for the 270 than the 180, but I personally think that has come from experience, and not because we've added an additional 90 degrees to the dive... I do however struggle to find the right altitude for a 90, now that I've grown totally used to landing with the 270.

Good discussion!
-drew

lemme see if i can explain myself better here.. "im horrible at that"

ok well if you wait to the last second to whip any degree turn around then it is vary vary hard to judge...

if you carve a 90 deg turn it is kinda difficult to judge and doesnt seem to get the speed unless you whip it...

the 180 you can go a little slower at but you still have to kind of "whip it "around a bit to get the speed....

now a 270 you can carve all the way and get just as much speed over a greater period of time from a higher altitude... wich in my opinion is "safer..."


edit: cause im bad at spelling and im sure i left somthing....

[andy2 0]

[QUOTE]im only useing harness.. unless otherwise neccassary.... as if i was too low.. or too high.. then i might.. just might use risers..... but im trying to master it with 100% harness[/QUOTE]

This would be a lot harder to do on a non cross braced canopy, or one that tends to have a shorter recovery arc? The fact that the VX tends to want to stay in a dive longer helps you use only harness input? Do you feel harness input is somewhat cleaner and produces a better swoop than front risers?

---------------------------------------------
let my inspiration flow,
in token rhyme suggesting rhythm...

[marks 0]

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[QUOTE]im only useing harness.. unless otherwise neccassary.... as if i was too low.. or too high.. then i might.. just might use risers..... but im trying to master it with 100% harness[/QUOTE]

This would be a lot harder to do on a non cross braced canopy, or one that tends to have a shorter recovery arc? The fact that the VX tends to want to stay in a dive longer helps you use only harness input? Do you feel harness input is somewhat cleaner and produces a better swoop than front risers?

yes you are correct.. i had a hard time doing harness turns on my crossfire..99... it would do them.. but not like the vx.... i feel that doing harness turns gives me more speed... over a longer period of time so i have alot more time to make desicions... doing a 270 gives me more time... you try to hold down the front riser of any canopy and it will get so tough to pull down you cant turn anymore.... not soo with a harness turn you can make it keep turning past that speed pint of where you cannot hold the riser..

also if setting up into the wind... pulling a front riser down can lead to the edge of the canopy to colaps because of the pressure changes... doing a herness turn does not destort the wing in that way it just tilts it...... so to answere your question... yes i think doing harness turns leads to a cleaner faster more altatude judgable swoop.... but that is an opinion....

[freeflydrew 0]

probably easier due to the wingloading

[marks 0]

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probably easier due to the wingloading

yes and that too...

im at 2.0 on the vx..

i was 1.9 on the crossfire..... ive lost weight since i bought the vx ... thats why the small difference.....