yarik 0 #1 August 25, 2003 Time has come to downsize :) Currently jumping Heatwave 150 at 1.23 loading I put 100 jumps on it this summer and now want to go to the next point around 1.35 - 1.4 and looking into second hand market. I love the way Heatwave flies and during all 100 learned a lot of front riser approaches and now feel quite confident in 90 deg. turns. Had to land it crosswind and tried it's landing in brakes (accuracy stile) and it's really predictable and wide range canopy at that loading. My first thought was Heatwave 135 which would give me 1.37 wing load, but resently found an attractive offer on Safire-129 (not Safire-2) and now I'm in doubt. Safire will give me wing loading 1.43, which is higher than on Hw-135, plus I heared that on Safire-1 the real area of the canopy is somewhat smaller form the nuber given, but at the same time as I understood from the reviews Safire is more forgiving canopy. At the same time Heatwave assumes higher performance and I really adore FLYING the canopy and learn to swoop (as much as it's possible at 1.23) don't want to sacrifice flying capabilities to extra forgivness (I'm consious about this :). Except flying I also take into consideration that Safire must have better performance due to it's different from HW ZP material, or it's not true? Please help! Another option would be a Stiletto, but price is much higher on the same age canopies which is a big minus in my case, or maybe older Stiletto will serve as good as newer Heatwave? If anyone could share the experience: what may I gain with one and loose with the oter - I would really appreciate. Blue Skies! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 15 #2 August 25, 2003 >as much as it's possible at 1.23 Swooping even a canopy at 1:1 is very possible. I've seen canopies at 1.2 go 75+ with the pilot not doing anything really radical. Personally only a 100 jumps on a canopy is wher you start to really learn the canopy and what it can do. Stick with the canopy for another year and you'll realize that you can probally add another 50-70 feet to your swoop with out having to downsize.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
trigger 0 #3 August 25, 2003 feel quite confident in 90 deg.*** And you now feel ready to downsize/change canopy type. Believe you me,you can get a hell of a lot more out of your current canopy and IMHO i would keep it and spend the cash on jumps and if you have done so already a good canopy control course where im sure there be able to teach you how to take that thing to another level.Plenty of life in the old girl yet me thinks..CHOP WOOD COLLECT WATER. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
twnsnd 1 #4 August 25, 2003 Lose the rag and learn how to swoop on a real canopy. -We are the Swoophaters. We have travelled back in time to hate on your swoops.- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #5 August 26, 2003 I definately agree with Phree here. I have nearly 400 jumps on my Heatwave 170 (loaded just a hair under 1.7:1), and I'm still learning how to get better swoops under that canopy. I didn't really start to learn what the canopy could do till about 150 jumps ago...you're just now starting to get comfy with the canopy, give it time, you'll get better with the canopy, you'll be surprised as to what a Heatwave can do. --"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GroundZero 0 #6 August 26, 2003 hehehehe... yea, what he said! Chris Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
yarik 0 #7 August 26, 2003 Thank you very much guys, I really value your comments! Although none really answered my post. I do not argue and know that I still can get more out of this canopy (and definitely will put more jumps on it before my next canopy gets delivered), but should I stick with this one for another year? Where should I stop? You can put hundreds of jumps on a student canopy with 0.75 loading and still learn how to get better control out of it, try learning front riser approaches, 90, 180, 360 turns - I believe it will swoop! Will it make sense? Where is the trick? I can continue jumping my current heatwave but I would rather go a bit lower and learn more effectively at 1.35 - 1.4 and definitely stick with it for longer than a 100 jumps and if I were jumping at 1.7 (as AggieDave) I would not change my canopy after 100 jumps as well. I appreciate your advises, but I'd leave the question "to downsize or not" to my instructors here who can judge personally knowing my experience. If anyone has anything to say about Safire/Heatwave - I would really appreciate it. Thanks to all again! Blue Skies! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites trigger 0 #8 August 26, 2003 OK dude,what the guys here are saying is that increasing your wingloading will not improve your technique,this comes with practice. You'll improve the length of your swoops obviously if you downsize,but poor technique will still be poor technique(I'm not suggesting that your 90 approaches are poor BTW) Also when you downsize things happen alot faster and the margin for error greatly increases.(or is that reduces) So ask yourself have i got the requisite skills nescessary to recover safely from a learning curve induced f*!Kup That all said the Safire is a very capable canopy as is the Heatwave which i believe has Stilletto like performance any how(must add i've never jumped a heatwave).and i'm sure with the right instruction and jumps you'll be amazed at what you can really get out of your present canopy. I personally didn't change canopy type/size until i'd be successfully pulling off double fronts to 180's for at 100 jumps and even then asked the advice of a highly experienced mentor before i took that decision. Remember you'll look cooler flying a larger more docile canopy well than you will if you fly a smaller canopy badly plus you'll get praise not groundings.P.S Book a canopy control course worth every penny..CHOP WOOD COLLECT WATER. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ramon 0 #9 August 26, 2003 The heat wave ZP material is south african (gelvenor textiles). the Safire is regualr ZP similar to what is used on most canopies. The south african ZP is easier to pack. Some people think it tears easier because heatwaves and hornets hafve a tendency to blow cells when over loaded (yes people overload them like other canopies, but I don't think the PISA canopies like it). there is nothing wrong with the Gelvenor fabric. I would get the heatwave If I were you. You are already used to the way it flares and so you will probably inprove on another heatwave. The shitfire..cough cough...ahem...safire will probably give you some trouble as you learn how to flare it . One thing very consistent about safires is that lots of people do not like them (a few raving fans, but they are all touched ) P.S. a heatwave flies almost exactly like a stilleto and is cheaper. good luck"Revolution is an abrupt change in the form of misgovernment.", Ambrose Bierce. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites AggieDave 6 #10 August 26, 2003 QuoteP.S. a heatwave flies almost exactly like a stilleto and is cheaper Yup. Almost, its not as twitchy as a stilleto.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites blair700 0 #11 August 26, 2003 Hello, I've never jumped a heatwave so I won't comment on that. I have just under 400 jumps on a saffire 189 loaded at 1.4. I LOVED that canopy, I could get just as long of a swoop as the crossfire pilots were getting on canopies a third of the size of mine. I also heard alot of folks say the saffire is tough to land, I found this not to be true at all. Its a wing, fly it like one and you'll land fine. I got rid of the saffire once I had ragged it out totally. I was comfortable turning 360+ degrees on front risers and getting nice surfs. At some point, I think, it becomes a little more dangerous, as you master THAT canopy, you will find it recovers very quickly from a dive, so I found myself hooking it harder, then lower, to get more power because I couldn't keep it in a dive. I got a smoking deal on a vengence 150, which is REALLY nice, but I'd trade it for a saffire2 or sabre2 170 in a second. But that's another thread. My .02$ is that the saffire is a great canopy to begin to learn swooping on. But I don't know shit C-ya Blair Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites AggieDave 6 #12 August 26, 2003 Sabre2s can be swoop monsters if flown right. I've seen it done, at a 1.4-ish wingloading. We're talking 250+ft. (Yeah, that's not PST, but that's not a super-high performance canopy either).--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Tonto 1 #13 August 27, 2003 QuoteAlthough none really answered my post. Read between the lines. We don't want you to downsize. We want you to learn to fly what you have. I only downsized from a 120 to a 107 after 1500 dives on the canopy - 3700 total - and only after 200 on the 107 am I starting to feel comfortable with trying newer techniques. Learn to fly what you have. Anything smaller will go faster. Don't ever think of a Safire loaded to 1.4 as "forgiving." That thing will kill you in a heartbeat - just like the Heatwave. tIt's the year of the Pig. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites yarik 0 #14 August 28, 2003 Thanks again guys. I respect your experience and your advise will help me to make the right choice. I wish we could meat at the dz somewhere someday. As for canopy control course - this is on my wishlist and next time when I can combine my vacation schedule with Canopy control course - I'll definitely take it. QuoteI only downsized from a 120 to a 107 after 1500 dives on the canopy Tonto, could you please advise, what was your wing loading on 120? As for a Safire at 1.4 - when I said "more forgiving" I meant only in comparison to stiletto or heatwave. I know that even Triathlon will be dangerous at 1.4 for unexperienced pilot. Thanks again, Blue Skies! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Tonto 1 #15 August 28, 2003 QuoteTonto, could you please advise, what was your wing loading on 120? My wingloading was 1.55 on the Jonathan 120, which is low by comparison to some people for my experience level. Some reasons for this are - 1. I'm 40+ - and regardless of what people may say, you're not as fast or as flexible at 40 as you are at 20. 2. Our DZ is 5050ft ASL, and very hot in the summertime - around 35+ deg C. 3. I like to be able to land safely where ever I choose, or where ever is chosen for me. My wingloading on the Stilleto 107 is 1.74. The Stilleto is a far better canopy than the Jonathan, and I actually feel more within my limits on this canopy than the last one. I've only just begun riser turns, having always toggle spanked canopies prior to this. (Thanks Chuck and Tim for the online mentoring. It's going VERY well.) If you get the chance to go on a canopy course, go for it. I prefer the Safire to the Heatwave. I have access to a Safire 135 for my Birdman stuff which I'm loading at about 1.38 - and I can really get that thing to sing - mainly because its well within my margins. Respect must remain, however. Blue Skies, tIt's the year of the Pig. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Scrumpot 1 #16 August 28, 2003 QuoteI can continue jumping my current heatwave but I would rather go a bit lower and learn more effectively at 1.35 - 1.4 Why is it you feel you will learn "more effectively" at 1.35-1.4 vs. your current 1.23?? If you really feel this way, do like me, and instead of getting a new canopy, simply rather gain 25-30 lbs real quick. That will do the trick! coitus non circum - Moab Stone Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites D22369 0 #17 August 29, 2003 Yup. Almost, its not as twitchy as a stilleto. ---> not quite the performance either RoyThey say I suffer from insanity.... But I actually enjoy it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. 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trigger 0 #8 August 26, 2003 OK dude,what the guys here are saying is that increasing your wingloading will not improve your technique,this comes with practice. You'll improve the length of your swoops obviously if you downsize,but poor technique will still be poor technique(I'm not suggesting that your 90 approaches are poor BTW) Also when you downsize things happen alot faster and the margin for error greatly increases.(or is that reduces) So ask yourself have i got the requisite skills nescessary to recover safely from a learning curve induced f*!Kup That all said the Safire is a very capable canopy as is the Heatwave which i believe has Stilletto like performance any how(must add i've never jumped a heatwave).and i'm sure with the right instruction and jumps you'll be amazed at what you can really get out of your present canopy. I personally didn't change canopy type/size until i'd be successfully pulling off double fronts to 180's for at 100 jumps and even then asked the advice of a highly experienced mentor before i took that decision. Remember you'll look cooler flying a larger more docile canopy well than you will if you fly a smaller canopy badly plus you'll get praise not groundings.P.S Book a canopy control course worth every penny..CHOP WOOD COLLECT WATER. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ramon 0 #9 August 26, 2003 The heat wave ZP material is south african (gelvenor textiles). the Safire is regualr ZP similar to what is used on most canopies. The south african ZP is easier to pack. Some people think it tears easier because heatwaves and hornets hafve a tendency to blow cells when over loaded (yes people overload them like other canopies, but I don't think the PISA canopies like it). there is nothing wrong with the Gelvenor fabric. I would get the heatwave If I were you. You are already used to the way it flares and so you will probably inprove on another heatwave. The shitfire..cough cough...ahem...safire will probably give you some trouble as you learn how to flare it . One thing very consistent about safires is that lots of people do not like them (a few raving fans, but they are all touched ) P.S. a heatwave flies almost exactly like a stilleto and is cheaper. good luck"Revolution is an abrupt change in the form of misgovernment.", Ambrose Bierce. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #10 August 26, 2003 QuoteP.S. a heatwave flies almost exactly like a stilleto and is cheaper Yup. Almost, its not as twitchy as a stilleto.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
blair700 0 #11 August 26, 2003 Hello, I've never jumped a heatwave so I won't comment on that. I have just under 400 jumps on a saffire 189 loaded at 1.4. I LOVED that canopy, I could get just as long of a swoop as the crossfire pilots were getting on canopies a third of the size of mine. I also heard alot of folks say the saffire is tough to land, I found this not to be true at all. Its a wing, fly it like one and you'll land fine. I got rid of the saffire once I had ragged it out totally. I was comfortable turning 360+ degrees on front risers and getting nice surfs. At some point, I think, it becomes a little more dangerous, as you master THAT canopy, you will find it recovers very quickly from a dive, so I found myself hooking it harder, then lower, to get more power because I couldn't keep it in a dive. I got a smoking deal on a vengence 150, which is REALLY nice, but I'd trade it for a saffire2 or sabre2 170 in a second. But that's another thread. My .02$ is that the saffire is a great canopy to begin to learn swooping on. But I don't know shit C-ya Blair Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #12 August 26, 2003 Sabre2s can be swoop monsters if flown right. I've seen it done, at a 1.4-ish wingloading. We're talking 250+ft. (Yeah, that's not PST, but that's not a super-high performance canopy either).--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tonto 1 #13 August 27, 2003 QuoteAlthough none really answered my post. Read between the lines. We don't want you to downsize. We want you to learn to fly what you have. I only downsized from a 120 to a 107 after 1500 dives on the canopy - 3700 total - and only after 200 on the 107 am I starting to feel comfortable with trying newer techniques. Learn to fly what you have. Anything smaller will go faster. Don't ever think of a Safire loaded to 1.4 as "forgiving." That thing will kill you in a heartbeat - just like the Heatwave. tIt's the year of the Pig. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
yarik 0 #14 August 28, 2003 Thanks again guys. I respect your experience and your advise will help me to make the right choice. I wish we could meat at the dz somewhere someday. As for canopy control course - this is on my wishlist and next time when I can combine my vacation schedule with Canopy control course - I'll definitely take it. QuoteI only downsized from a 120 to a 107 after 1500 dives on the canopy Tonto, could you please advise, what was your wing loading on 120? As for a Safire at 1.4 - when I said "more forgiving" I meant only in comparison to stiletto or heatwave. I know that even Triathlon will be dangerous at 1.4 for unexperienced pilot. Thanks again, Blue Skies! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tonto 1 #15 August 28, 2003 QuoteTonto, could you please advise, what was your wing loading on 120? My wingloading was 1.55 on the Jonathan 120, which is low by comparison to some people for my experience level. Some reasons for this are - 1. I'm 40+ - and regardless of what people may say, you're not as fast or as flexible at 40 as you are at 20. 2. Our DZ is 5050ft ASL, and very hot in the summertime - around 35+ deg C. 3. I like to be able to land safely where ever I choose, or where ever is chosen for me. My wingloading on the Stilleto 107 is 1.74. The Stilleto is a far better canopy than the Jonathan, and I actually feel more within my limits on this canopy than the last one. I've only just begun riser turns, having always toggle spanked canopies prior to this. (Thanks Chuck and Tim for the online mentoring. It's going VERY well.) If you get the chance to go on a canopy course, go for it. I prefer the Safire to the Heatwave. I have access to a Safire 135 for my Birdman stuff which I'm loading at about 1.38 - and I can really get that thing to sing - mainly because its well within my margins. Respect must remain, however. Blue Skies, tIt's the year of the Pig. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Scrumpot 1 #16 August 28, 2003 QuoteI can continue jumping my current heatwave but I would rather go a bit lower and learn more effectively at 1.35 - 1.4 Why is it you feel you will learn "more effectively" at 1.35-1.4 vs. your current 1.23?? If you really feel this way, do like me, and instead of getting a new canopy, simply rather gain 25-30 lbs real quick. That will do the trick! coitus non circum - Moab Stone Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
D22369 0 #17 August 29, 2003 Yup. Almost, its not as twitchy as a stilleto. ---> not quite the performance either RoyThey say I suffer from insanity.... But I actually enjoy it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
