sldiveout 0 #1 December 30, 2002 I had a very frustrating thing happen to me at the DZ today. A pretty heads up newbie with 100 jumps is doing some mild 90-ish degree turns to final on a sabre-135 loaded at about 1.4- Fine He comes to me with "this canopy won't swoop" so we find video of his landing and talk about how he could be more efficient, better at judging altitude (more jumps), learning how to max out the performance from say a 45 to 90 degree turn with front risers. If you saw the video you would think he was coming straight in with no front riser input. 10 minutes later he is assembling a stiletto 120 on his main risers. Even after I dug through my video to show him my teammate swooping his old sabre 135 for 175 feet. Hold on to your seat_ These canopies are both loaners because he found someone (don't know who, not at our DZ) to buy a VELOCITY 96 on his behalf. Apparently he plans on shelving it until he's ready. He asks all the right questions, and is very willing to listen to advice, but doesn't seem to act on it too much. -The ground is hard, trust me I know, I checked- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Samurai136 0 #2 December 30, 2002 I'd tell him he's wasting his money buying a Velocity simply to store it until he's ready. By PD's standards he needs at least another 500 jumps and 500 jumps on an elliptical of a similar size and jump regularly to keep his canopy skills current. By the time he develops the skills, he will probably have more options on canopies and probably could get a new or used Velocity cheaper than the cost he's shelling out now. He should spend the money on jumps now and not a canopy he might jump later. Just my Opinion... Ken"Buttons aren't toys." - Trillian Ken Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BPO 0 #3 December 30, 2002 somehow I think this person is not going to wait 500 jumps before trying his Velocity Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #4 December 30, 2002 Heres a thing.... First off I think a 1.4 at 100 jumps is too much... (Oh well that another fight.) Try to tell him he should not get it. Show him the fatlity reports that show 1/3 of the deaths have been people under good canopies.... Show him where all but 2 of those were were people "Hooking it" Show him where all but one of the dead had less than 600 jumps. Also show him that MOST of the DEAD had 300 jumps and a 1.5 wingloading. If that does not work... You got an S&TA?????? A DZO???? Have them tell this jumper that he will not jump a V96 at his DZ till he has the recomended # of jumps that the manufactorer says... He will be pissed, and might try to jump somewhere else, but YOU did everything you could. Ron"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ramon 0 #5 December 30, 2002 if my math is correct he would be loading the stilleto 120 at 1.575. That is a pretty high wingloading for 100 jumps. Hey, here is a thought, tell him about the poor guy in Beumont TX that femured this weekend. His compound tibia fracture left a 6 ft groove in the asphalt.ramon "Revolution is an abrupt change in the form of misgovernment.", Ambrose Bierce. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hookitt 0 #6 December 30, 2002 1.4 is radical for just over 100 jumps. Go right to the S&TA and DZO. Sometimes intervention is a must. I don't like it as much as the next guy but f**K!!.. that's just not acceaptable. Think about it.... TimMy grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhino 0 #7 December 30, 2002 Nothing you say to this character will make a difference.. He has been bitten by the swoop bug.. Get him a video of wipeouts or something. Let's hope his bag of experience fills up before his bag of luck runs out... 1.4 at 100 jumps is a bit fast? Plus he probably exaggerates his jump numbers so he probably has 80. I thought I downsized fast,, I went to 1.7 at 150 jumps on the Diablo110. I thoroughly picked hooks brain before I made that move. AND I had already thumped under a triathlon150. So I had some ground reinforced intelligence.. lol Good luck.. Rhino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jimbo 0 #8 December 30, 2002 Quote Nothing you say to this character will make a difference.. Speaking from experience Rhino? Just kidding, but I couldn't resist. Quote Get him a video of wipeouts or something. Do you think that would help? Did you realize how unforgiving the ground could be by watching videos, or did it take smashing in under your 150 before you truely understood? Like everyone, I agree that 1.4 at 100 jumps is a bit fast. Unfortunately I don't think there's anything you can say to this guy that will make him change his mind. I don't think there's anything anyone can say. If he doesn't have the patience to learn to swoop his Sabre at 1.4 then I fear that he'll never understand until he's experienced pain firsthand, hopefully it doesn't kill him. - Jim"Like" - The modern day comma Good bye, my friends. You are missed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diveout 0 #9 December 30, 2002 I've shown him point of view video of a crash that I made under a velocity 111. I thought I broke both femurs when I did it (I actually tore muscles in my groin which immediately balled and cramped up). Same old story, too little canopy over my head with too little experience. Needless to say I took a very different approach to canopy flight after that. others at the dropzone urge caution but stop short of official action. I understand how when you have 100 jumps, 500 or 1000 seem like a long way away but looking back (I'll only be making my 1000th this coming weekend) it's really just a blink. Thank you all for your help- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
f1freak 0 #10 December 31, 2002 I am still thankfull that i had "Good" friends at the DZ when another jumper there tried to sell me a Stiletto when i had @ 100 jumps... They pulled me off to the side and talked to me, it helped that i respected and looked up to them. The weird thing is about a week after i decided not to buy that canopy I totally hosed a swoop and pounded in http://www.flintwebdev.com/f1freak_lucky.wmv I really think that they saved my life by having that talk with me, and i will go out of my way to do the same for another person i think might make that mistake....HAVE FUN... ...JUST DONT DIE Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
grosfion 0 #11 December 31, 2002 Quote These canopies are both loaners because he found someone (don't know who, not at our DZ) to buy a VELOCITY 96 on his behalf. Apparently he plans on shelving it until he's ready. ok let's start a poll: who was waiting a few month after buying a canopy until he was ready for it? Or I might just try it out and then jump it when it's time for it? Don't think it happens too often, when you buy a canopy you want to jump it not storing it in the shelf... blues Marcus Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RichM 0 #12 December 31, 2002 Quote ok let's start a poll: who was waiting a few month after buying a canopy until he was ready for it? Or I might just try it out and then jump it when it's time for it? I stashed a 120 sabre on my warddrobe for a full year while becoming familiar with my 135 sabre.Rich M Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TheMonkey 0 #13 December 31, 2002 Quote I totally hosed a swoop and pounded in that looked like it hurt....glad you're still here.... long live flying monkeys --------------------- Never argue with an idiot, they will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
f1freak 0 #14 December 31, 2002 Hell yea, shit.... I didnt realize my body could bend in so many ways.... No, I was really lucky.... HAVE FUN... ...JUST DONT DIE Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hookitt 0 #15 December 31, 2002 Oh I saw that video, I thought for certain you were broken. My old team mate was bent in half from an extremely low turn, there was no reason at all to have survived, let alone walk away uninjured. He was limber and somewhat stupid at the time. He didn't quite realize that impact was imminent so he didn't tense up. He was quite the "noodle looking human" during that landing. He's MUCH better at landing now. Once again.. I wish the new guy a full recovery.My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
f1freak 0 #16 December 31, 2002 So true, that is why i didnt break i think..... But it made me really look at what i was jummping.... HAVE FUN... ...JUST DONT DIE Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Michele 1 #17 December 31, 2002 Quote A pretty heads up newbie with 100 jumps and then you say... Quote10 minutes later he is assembling a stiletto 120 on his main risers. and then you add... Quotefound someone (don't know who, not at our DZ) to buy a VELOCITY 96 on his behalf. Does anyone else think the first statement does not belong with the rest of them? QuoteApparently he plans on shelving it until he's ready. He asks all the right questions, and is very willing to listen to advice, but doesn't seem to act on it too much. He's not gonna shelve it for 400 jumps...and he's not very willing to listen to advice if he doesn't take it, or at least consider it. I dunno...he may be a natural; but wouldn't it suck to find out you were wrong and are not a natural as you plummet to the ground, breaking yourself into a million pieces? Good luck. I can honestly say I have no advice to give. And I am sorry. Quoteok let's start a poll: who was waiting a few month after buying a canopy until he was ready for it? Or I might just try it out and then jump it when it's time for it? I did. I bought my Spectre 210 in July, and didn't get under it until October...when I took the canopy control class with Jim Slayton and crew. And I was only downsizing from a Spectre 230...not a huge jump, and not a small canopy to start with. Maybe contacting the manufacturer and/or the seller, telling them who has bought it, and having them send some waivers holding them harmless in the case of his injury and death? And there was a suggestion on a different thread which talked about a DZO having some guy fill out the fatality report in general, and saying he'd fill in the details later...that would've gotten my attention really quick. Sorry.... Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflir29 0 #18 December 31, 2002 Dude....I want you to solemly swear to video EVERY SINGLE landing he does from now on. The carnage is going to be spectacular!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ramon 0 #19 December 31, 2002 I put my FX in the closet 3 times over period of about 4 months (jumping heavily)..actually transitioned over to it gradually over about 100 jumps ramon PS. did the same when I got my VX (i.e I tired it bought it, then jumped the fX for a while then switched to VX, got nervous and did the swap once more)"Revolution is an abrupt change in the form of misgovernment.", Ambrose Bierce. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhino 0 #20 December 31, 2002 QuoteDo you think that would help? Did you realize how unforgiving the ground could be by watching videos, or did it take smashing in under your 150 before you truely understood? Nothing wakes you up like hitting the ground. Luckily it was a wet day and I had stretched real good before jumping. Looking at the video you would think I was a contortionist or something.. lol My first canopy was the Triathlon150 at 1.2+. That was a great spot for me to start. I had 65+ jumps on various types of rental canopies by then. Do I speak from experience? Well.. Ater I thumped hook gave me 2 ear fulls. I have been picking his brain ever since. I picked it before but after I REALLY started asking him questions. Rhino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #21 December 31, 2002 OK DIVEOUT is the person I am using as an example. He got to small of a canopy, with too little experiance. He know KNOWS it....He didn't then. Just like most of us, we think we know everything, until we move on, and look back a realize we didn't know shit. What ever anyone says...jump #'s and time in sport do matter. Ask anyone with over a thousand jumps. Its only the new people who are trying to justify what they are doing that say jumps don't matter. If you have 100,200,300, ect jumps that is only 100,200 or 300 times that you have landed a parachute..there is training that can help you progress, but only experiance will really work. Experiance plus knowlege is the best route. But knowledge is nothing without the experiance, and the practice of actually doing it. As I always say "you can jump a smaller canopy if you live through the one you have now". Also, don't be afraid to talk to an S&TA, and have a reckless person grounded. While he is sitting on the ground teach him. If he won't lisen, give him directions to leave the DZ. Tell him if he wants to come back, he is welcome. But he will sit in a canopy control class, and if he starts acting up, he will be told to leave again. This way he learns, or kills himself at some other DZ. Don't be afraid....you are trying to save him from pain or DEATH. Ron"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AiRpollUtiOn 0 #22 December 31, 2002 People tought I was half crazy when I bought my Stiletto 150 @ 150 jumps (1.3) Now I am at about 250 jumps, and this canopy is phukin' fast when you want it to be. I think that I would need another 100 jumps on a smaller and newer to get the same feel for it. Tell this guy to watch Rickster Powell's swoops in antigravity, afterwards tell him what size of Stiletto he was flying. Bottom line: 100 jumps, Stiletto 120 and Velocity 96 on the shelf: Toodoo doom doom doom Another one bites the dust."Don't make me come down there" - God. My site:http://www.skystudio.nl/video.html Some of my vids: http://www.youtube.com/user/TomSkyStudio Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Canuck 0 #23 December 31, 2002 Always been curious about that. What size of Stiletto was Rickster swooping over the lake and into the hanger in Antigravity? And he's not a big guy - I wonder what the wingloading was? Goes to show, technique goes a long way. Canuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jussi 0 #24 January 2, 2003 That was a 120, i would guess his wingloading was around 1.5-1.6??? Does anyone know?? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AiRpollUtiOn 0 #25 January 2, 2003 QuoteThat was a 120, i would guess his wingloading was around 1.5-1.6??? Does anyone know?? I think Rickster had well over 100 jumps when they taped that, thanks for proving my point!"Don't make me come down there" - God. My site:http://www.skystudio.nl/video.html Some of my vids: http://www.youtube.com/user/TomSkyStudio Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
