Standing up rear riser landings

[scott2002 0]

I finally tried a couple of rear riser only landings the other day in no wind conditions. It was another hop-n-pop Friday so I figured I try something new. I checked my stall point with the brakes unstowed after deployment and I was ready to go. Well, I got my canopy to plane out nicely but it didn't bleed off hardly any speed. About 2 seconds later the canopy stopped flying and I ate shit both times (I can't run that fast!). I was at the end of my rear riser control range and did not want to risk pulling them down further. So is this something I should be able to stand up? I got sick of getting dirty so I kind of retired the idea.

I jump a Crossfire loaded at 1.1 plus mile high DZ.

[skygod7777 0]

no, the stall point on rear risers is much faster than with toggles.

later

[skyboyblue 0]

I'm pretty sure that rear risers aren't going to slow you down enough to tip toe in. Correct me if I wrong, but they are used more to plane the canopy out for swooping purposes. you'll lose speed eventually but if you use rear risers, you flatten out the glide, thus going a bit further hopefully. I wouldn't use rears to pull myself out of a dive, but if you use them the proper way, and then transistion to your toggles to finish the flare off, you'll get some nice results. even with a lightly loaded crossfire. I'm sure hooknswoop will chime in eventually with some hardcore details.

sbb

[ChileRelleno 0]

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Well, I got my canopy to plane out nicely but it didn't bleed off hardly any speed. About 2 seconds later the canopy stopped flying and I ate shit both times (I can't run that fast!). I was at the end of my rear riser control range and did not want to risk pulling them down further. So is this something I should be able to stand up?

I can see you coming in and thinking "Allright, level but fast..." then " Oh crap!!!!" .

As you've already figured out "you stalled the canopy".
Try try again, you planed it out with plenty of flying speed, now you have to fly it! Guess that stall point wasn't quite where you thought it was. Practice makes perfect, practice more at altitude.
I really doubt your going to "stand" this landing, as in a nice gentle tiptoe back onto mother earth. Your going to have to move those feet, hit the ground running or be prepared to PLF.

What really counts is that you landed in one piece after using rear risers only, therefore in theory that theororetical broken brakeline doesn't require a reserve ride.

ChileRelleno-Rodriguez Bro#414
Hellfish#511,MuffBro#3532,AnvilBro#9, D24868

[Samurai136 0]

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I wouldn't use rears to pull myself out of a dive,

I think I understand what you really mean but...

Why wouldn't you use rear risers to pull out of a dive? If you recognize immeadiately that you've turned to low, rear risers will get you out of the dive faster than any other option.

It doesn't take much rear riser input to plane the canopy out. If you're using rear riser for swooping, it only takes a an inch or two of deflection to plane out the canopy. Mostly, I just push the risers out and pull down and inch. This is a very small input.

Scott2002, w/ the experience your profile says you have I wouldn't recommend using rear risers for landing/ swooping. Too much riser input will stall the canopy. It sounds like that's what you did and you were carrying all the forward momentum. The faster you fly at the stall point the faster you'll have to run or face plant yourself...

Take your time and develop your canopy skills up high before you try to use them for landing.

Ken

"Buttons aren't toys." - Trillian
Ken

[scott2002 0]

My profile is not current anymore. I have close to 250 jumps now. I usually see people advocating rear riser landings as a skill necessary to learn before downsizing (which I'm not planning on doing until the end of next session). I didn't think it was possible to stand up a landing on just rear risers without skidding it out. From other peoples posts here, I can see I was correct in this assumption.

But I did not get my jumpsuit dirty in vain. I saw first hand how using rear risers could really improve on swoop distance. But do to the complexity of transitioning from front risers, to rear risers, to toggles smoothly, it will be quite some time before I incorporate them into my landings.

[skygod7777 0]

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My profile is not current anymore

well if you know that it's not current fix it

later

[RichM 0]

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I wouldn't use rears to pull myself out of a dive,

I think I understand what you really mean but...

Why wouldn't you use rear risers to pull out of a dive? If you recognize immeadiately that you've turned to low, rear risers will get you out of the dive faster than any other option.

Rears stall much earlier than toggles and you cannot get as good a swing forward under canopy as using brakes. I don't thin using rears to dig you out of the corner is a good idea, but if you're not in the corner then, I dunno

Rich M

[crazy 0]

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Why wouldn't you use rear risers to pull out of a dive? If you recognize immeadiately that you've turned to low, rear risers will get you out of the dive faster than any other option.

Emergency recovery from a (too) low turn? I wouldn't do or even think about using the rear risers.
Survival expectations would be insignificant if i stall the canopy. If i already turned too low, means that my judgement is somewhat impaired, i might misjudge the input on the rear risers as well, stall the canopy and finish to kill myself.
Not to mention that i would definitely freak out if i was too low to recover with gentle and smooth toggle input.

bb

--
Come
Skydive Asia

[craddock 0]

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Why wouldn't you use rear risers to pull out of a dive?

Easy to induce a stall. Stalling while trying to recover from a low turn = ?

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If you recognize immeadiately that you've turned to low, rear risers will get you out of the dive faster than any other option.

Very vague statement. What kind of turn? Carving turn or a snap hook causing the canopy to dive steep toward the ground.(no answer needed) Rear risers could get you killed faster than any other option.

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It doesn't take much rear riser input to plane the canopy out. If you're using rear riser for swooping, it only takes a an inch or two of deflection to plane out the canopy. Mostly, I just push the risers out and pull down and inch. This is a very small input

Planing a canopy out and pulling out of a dive are not the same in my mind but it is open to interpretation. It is bad advice to tell people who you do not know on this board that using rear risers to pull out of a dive is a good option. I would highly advise the opposite when using a short statement, such as yours, that does not cover any aerodynamics of the stalls that can occur. In fact I will.

Using rear risers to pull out of a dive should not be a consideration when learing rear riser landings. Again" pulling out of a dive" is open to interpretation, but less likely to get someone injured or killed.

Blues,
Josh

That spot isn't bad at all, the winds were strong and that was the issue! It was just on the downwind side.

[freeflir29 0]

I'll second the DON'T USE REAR RISERS to save yourself from a "too low turn." In fact ...all the advice I have ever gotten was...Only use rear risers when everything else is perfect. (During high performance landings not broken line scenarios) Also...you didn't mention transitioning to your toggles to stop the canopy. That's the only way I have EVER seen anyone land a canopy. Just my .02 with 308 jumps so i don't know shit!!!

[diveout 0]

Have you seen someone finish a landing successfully without a transition to toggles? It seems strange that one would try this without knowing that you generally have to start and stop the 2nd stage of the flare with the toggles.

Maybee not, if you'd seen somebody do it-

just wondering,

-Dan

[skygod7777 0]

***Have you seen someone finish a landing successfully without a transition to toggles?***

actually i have. steve O, i have seen do this with his crossfire. he hooked, started on rears risers, and went all the way to the end with them. now he had to run like a bat out of hell, but he did it.

now this landing technique is usally done with transitioning to toggles to slow down to a stop, or close to a stop.

later

[garywainwright 0]

I've landed my Xaos 21 completely on back risers (the wind was about 10mph) and I've seen a friend land his velocity on back risers in nil winds (We both had to run) I think its a good skill to develop in time. I have also seen another friend almost hurt herself under a reserve because a brake toggle came off and she made no attempt to use the back risers!

http://www.garywainwright.co.uk

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[SkyBoyJohn 0]

I gotta agree with most of what is said here,, I have seen a lot of people get hurt trying to do hight performance landings. I think If we could just get rid of rear risers all together we would be much safer overall. Lets do it for the good of the sport..

[diveout 0]

Hmmm...

OK, Now that I think about it I've heard of people doing a toggleless riser flare loaded up high. I guess it's good to know that it's possible.

I saw a buddy of mine come out a slightly low turn with his risers today. It looked pretty smooth to me, I can see how it doesn't kill your forward speed like digging in to your toggles.

Good times-(untill you stall your canopy going 30 or drop a riser)

[billdo 0]

Bottom line is, rear risers do not produce any lift!!

This is why you land hard. This is why you should never pull out of the corner with them.

You therefore have to be going very fast for a "planed out" canopy, near the ground, to be able to land it smoothly without pounding in. People who do it are very experienced swoopers who are going very fast and get the canopy to plane out right at the ground, and usually have their feet down, sliding the grass a ways, therefore using their feet as the brakes. 95% of rear-riser landing I've seen involve a TRANSITION to toggles to finish the flare.

[Zlew 0]

I can only speak for myself, but I totally disagree that they dont' prduce lift.
Is it harder to surf with rear risers? Sure as hell can be. You compress the entire range of your toggles into a few inches. If you do not have good tech. and smooth input, you are not going to like risers at all. Most people, IMO, over input their toggles when they swoop (you know, the flappers, pumpers, popers....). You have less room for error with risers, but i find they work GREAT.
The first time I was brave enought to try a rear riser landing on a swoop, I thought I would start with risers and then have to transition to toggles to stop it....I was very happy to find that I didn't need to go to toggles at all. The surf was great, and I slid it to a total stop (at not quite 2:1) in no wind just like I do on toggles.
If you don't unload your canopy,and are of the school of Swoop for 70 yards, then run for 20..... you won't like risers I woldn't think. But if you unload, you can stop the canopy very smoothly.
Risers are very powerfull, don't buy into the "they don't produce any lift" line of crap.
Learn you wing.... you will find plenty of lift there.

Z

[SkymonkeyONE 3]

Just to pound this home a bit more:
There are two different things being discussed here; rear risering for survival in the absence of toggles or having a broken steering line; and swooping on rears.

If you are landing on rears as a survival technique, do not worry that you are still hauling ass. Just make sure you are within close enough proximity to the ground as you are planing so that you can put down your landing gear (feet) and slide to a stop. Trying to run out a 30mph canopy plane is assinine. If you have winds and can get your canopy stopped, be happy. If not, then just be happy you lived through the landing without serious injury.

Now, for swooping, yes, there are instances where people will complete their entire swoop on rears. This, of course is VERY rare. I will sometimes do it if I am doing a "dead man" swoop where I end up sliding in on my belly (on purpose). Typically, though, we will all transition to toggles to scrub off that last bit of speed without risking the violent stall that goes along with rear risering too long.

Chuck