Anyone take the Canopy Control Class

[Michele 1]

Anyone take the canopy control class at Perris? I am hoping to take it this week, not to learn to swoop, but to learn how to fly and more importantly to LAND safely....I was just wondering if anyone had any experience, and knew what I could expect?

Thanks in advance...

Ciels-
Michele

~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~

[Jimbo 0]

I haven't, but would love to.

Be sure to post your experiences after you're done.

-
Jim

"Like" - The modern day comma
Good bye, my friends. You are missed.

[Michele 1]

Hey, Jimbo -

No problem...but it won't be from the experienced jumper's view, just the beginner's perspective...

(Edit:Confirmed with Team Extreme that Wednesday will be the day)

Ciels-
Michele

~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~

[parachutist 1]

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Anyone take the canopy control class at Perris?

A few years ago I took a week-long canopy control course in Florida. It was some great education and I'm very glad that I spent the week down there. Some of the jumpers who were giving seminars / coaching / etc. that week are Perris locals. I suggest taking the course and seeing what you think of it =]

Chris

[Michele 1]

Hey, Chris....

So the course is ground school understanding why canopies behave the way they do (you mean it's not majik?....), and then a jumpnclear from 12,500 and then 4 more from 4,5...all with video and debrief and more education along the way.

I am bringing a whole brand new notebook, so I can remember all of it...

Ciels-
Michele

~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~

[LawnDart21 0]

HI Michele,
I took the Evolution canopy flight course in May 2002, this past spring. It was without a doubt the best money I have ever spent in this sport. Whether I'm landing a tandem 400 sq foot canopy, or a 105 sq foot elliptial (loaded 2.0), the principles in the course and the techniques are applicable for any jumper in any wingloading situation. They tailor the course to your jump numbers, wingloading, canopy experience and what you are looking t oaccomplish. The ground school portion is generic, in that they use the Bryan Burke's canopy flight essays (available to all on skydive arizona's website) as the basis for the fundementals of canopy flight. But it's Jim's explanation of the material and his real world applications of the information, like how to correctly develope a "sight picture" of your approach, that really make the ground school worth while. Then you jump.....and jump....and jump.....The basic course is 5 jumps, either Clint, Jim or JC will jump with you on some of them, flying around you observing your technicque and canopy control from altitude. They then spiral down and video your landing and debrief it. After the course, you can buy single coach jumps for $35 a piece, I did 8 jumps in total with Evolution, and it was worth every penny I paid. I plan on going back next spring and getting more coaching from them. The thing is, there are a lot of canopy schools/courses out there, most are great. But with Evolution, you literally are taught the "do's and don'ts" of canopy flight from the best canopy pilots in the world, on a one on one basis. They are all very approachable and most importantly, you can tell Jim went out of his way to create a course syllabus and training method that is just as beneficial to the novice jumper as it is to the aspiring PPPB swooper. If anyone has any specific questions I can answer, please feel free to send me an instant message.
Blue Skies and long swoops........Tom

(disclaimer, I went out there with 400ish jumps, jumping a 120 loaded 1.8 at the time to specifically learn to swoop safer and longer. The biggest asset I took home from the course was changing my canopies "angle of incidence" during the actual swoop that increased my swoop distance considerably. I'm no good at posting links, but the canopy flight essays are at http://www.skydiveaz.com/resource.htm

--
My other ride is a RESERVE.

[Spy38W 0]

Cool write-up Tom

http://www.skydiveaz.com/resource.htm

--
Hook high, flare on time

[LawnDart21 0]

Muchos Gracias Amigo!

--
My other ride is a RESERVE.

[PhreeZone 15]

Do you have to preschedule the classes a few weeks in advance or is it more like the tunnel in the winter and pretty booked up?

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[Spy38W 0]

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Muchos Gracias Amigo!

De nada, en cualquier momento

--
Hook high, flare on time

[Michele 1]

Hey, Phree...

Re: prescheduling...

I ahve had a darned hard tiome getting in touch with them for whatever reason, mostly because they were on tour and working...I made up my mind that I could eek out the $$ for the class this last weekend (and not pay this or that bill), and made numerous calls this weekend and yesterday.

It seems that, because the classes are a full day with one-one instruction, prescheduling would be good, but because I can come out during the week (my one day off is Wed.), they were able to accomodate me at short notice.

I would suggest that, if you know when you'll be around, to set it up a while in advance, and then remind them closer to the date.

Hey, Tom! Thanks for the write-up - I apprecaite knowing a little bit about what I am "in for"...we talked last night about what I want from the class, and should I stay in the 230 or use my own 210...we'll make that decision for sure tomorrow...my wants from the class are simple: to land on my toesies rather than my bumpers, and to understand why canopies fly....and then, if there's time, to swoop like they do....

Ciels-
Michele

~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~

[LawnDart21 0]

If memory serves me right, I think I called them 2 weeks ahead to see if they would be in town the weekend I was going to be there. It took a few days to get a call back becuase they were on tour when I called. Call manifest at Perris, they can tell you if/when they will be at the DZ and if they are on the road or not.

Thanks Michele! Good luck with the class!

--
My other ride is a RESERVE.

[alan 1]

I'm curious, what did they have to say about landing in turbulence under modern canopies. Do they advocate using 1/4 or 1/2 brakes on final or full flight? Seems like an important topic, I would hope they covered it.

alan

[LawnDart21 0]

While I can't recall with any degree of certainty what was covered in the course regarding landins in turbulent winds, my personal, non-instructor opinion, is that flying a canopy at 1/4 or 1/2 brakes is a way bad idea in turbulent conditions. Anyone that has ever been hung under a hyperventilating canopy (ie, breathing rapidly) at a low altitude knows that's a bad place to be. I always tell people "If you feel some bumps, and look up and see your canopy frowning back at you, your probably gonna end up frowning too if your not careful.....") Anyways, I digress....I've always been told (and believe to be true) that we stay in the air (lift) under canopy because of two things: 1) The pressurization of the cells and 2) the wind flowing over the wing. By flying in 1/4 or 1/2 brakes, you are potentially lessening both the pressurization of the cells and lessening the air over the wing by slowing it down in brakes. (For the physics gurus out there, I know there a tons of other factors at play in keeping up above the earth under canopy....lol, these are just the two big ones I personally focus on). By letting the canopy fly in full flight, even in turbulence, you are getting maximum cell pressurization and maximum wind over your wing. It just makes sense to me anyways, that that is the safest way to fly in turbulence. Let the canopy fly. Just my .02.

--
My other ride is a RESERVE.

[bobsoutar 0]

Sounds about right to me. I sometimes use a very, very small amout of brake in turbulence - about 1/10th - just enough to quieten it down a touch.

[alan 1]

Quote

I took the Evolution canopy flight course in May 2002, this past spring. It was without a doubt the best money I have ever spent in this sport. Whether I'm landing a tandem 400 sq foot canopy, or a 105 sq foot elliptial (loaded 2.0), the principles in the course and the techniques are applicable for any jumper in any wingloading situation............. The ground school portion is generic, in that they use the Bryan Burke's canopy flight essays (available to all on skydive arizona's website) as the basis for the fundementals of canopy flight.

Quote

While I can't recall with any degree of certainty what was covered in the course regarding landins in turbulent winds,

I don't mean to pick on you, but it seems as if the course may not be such a great value. It appears not to have covered or if it did, left much of an impression on you, what probably contributes to more skydiving related injuries than any one other factor. I'm sure the personal insights that are added are valuable, especially when you say with a certain amount of pride that you have been personally coached by one of the best. But, no certain recollection of this being covered?????? What a shame.

I do have to say that I agree with your non-instructor point of view, but bill von certainly makes an arguement that brakes will minimize the injury because of the slower speed at impact. My view is that it minimizes injuries that become more probably because of the brakes. He and someone else even came up with some quotes about flying paragliders in turbulence, although none of them seemed to address the issue of landing, just what do do at altitude, presumeably in the extreme turbulence encountered in mountain flying. I hope no one was taking much of that stuff too seriously, but rather went out and got some advice at the DZ and under supervision, experimented progressively to find out how their canopies fly in real life.

alan

[quade 3]

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. . . but bill von certainly makes an arguement that brakes will minimize the injury because of the slower speed at impact. My view is that it minimizes injuries that become more probably because of the brakes.

I won't attempt to speak for BillVon, but if I recall correctly the discussion and responses were a matter of degrees and what was being addressed wasn't simple light turb, but rather the kind of turb that would likely cause your canopy to collapse. All canopies can collapse, even airlocked ones. I believe the comment about going into brakes had something to do with putting the canopy back into the configuration in which it was most likely to re-inflate -- with the brakelines pulled down to the position they would be if they were stowed.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[Michele 1]

Me is exhausted, and home now. In defense of LawnDart, Alan, flying in turbulance is covered, and covered well. He is correct in his recollection and opinion about how to get through it with a canopy over your head, according to the guys who teach the class.

I have not yet completed the class, but I will tell you that if LawnDart didn't remember specifically exactly what was discussed, it's because they are discussing about a million things, and many turns in the conversation did occur. There were several times where I had to stop him and say "no, I don't understand" or "no, I don't get it. WTF are you talking about", and then move backwards til I did understand something, and re-build from there. It was four plus hours of technical discussion, before 9 am to after 1 pm, with lots of new terms and concepts (whaddya mean, it's not majik?), and then getting through jumps and debriefs and jumping again. Very intense, and stressful, but in a good way.

I am very tired, and likely not explaining this very well, but I will say this: IT WAS FAR AND BEYOND the best $$ I have ever spent in any of the sports I've participated in, and not because of the "personal pride" to say "Jim Slaton worked with me today"...but because of the information, and the information, and the information...and then coaching, coaching, coaching (it could've been little green men who coached me...I could care less about the celebrity status of a jumper...). And those guys really, really care about what's happening, and why, and take the time to see what's actually going on...and fix what needs fixing, and keep what should be kept, both technically and emotionally.

If you haven't taken the course, Alan, I don't believe you have the basis to determine if it is worth the money. I have and am, and will tell you right here that it is worth it. Lawndart happens to agree.
Ciels-
Michele

~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~

[IronMike 0]

I agree that the "Team Extereme" school was the best money I spent in my year of skydiving. I gave Michele shit about her hop-n-pops today. She is a trooper for doing it. Im glad Perris is back to normalcy.

Mike

[LawnDart21 0]

Thanks Michelle, I totally appreciate the back up on this one! To be honest I went to Evolution with one primary purpose; to learn to swoop long and safe. I already arrived their with a good sense of how to fly in bad winds, and applied my focus %100 to swooping safely. So, in that respect, the "bad winds" part of the course dialect wasn't of as a big of an importance to me as say, how to bail out of the corner if your turn is too low, things like that. As I mentioned earlier, tehy tailor the course individually, even in a large class, to meet the individual needs of the students. In my case it was swooping. As for the pride thing, in being taught by these guys, Alan is definitely right, in that, having had the opportunity to learn from and just hang out with Clint and Jim at Perris and talk about everything from cross braces to Skydive Walterboro, my opinion of these guys couldn't be higher, they are genuinely decent people and I'm glad I had the opportunity to meet them and learn from them. (Being the best canopy pilots on the planet didn't hurt any either....lol) Oh, if I had to dig for one last excuse on not remembering the "turbulence thing"....I was also a little jet lagged as I flew in from Boston the day before....lol.

Alan: No worries mate! It's all good, we are all on this board to gain some sembalance of understanding of this weird sport we all live for. No two people are gonna ever exactly agree (except maybe me & Michele!) on things, but as long it's all said and done with positive energy with a goal of mutual understanding, it's all good to me. I didn't feel picked on, but thanks for the preface in the post!

(unrelated pic: a tandem student emailed me this pic the other day of a jump we did and it looks pretty cool I think......lol)

--
My other ride is a RESERVE.

[LawnDart21 0]

Damn. Pic size too big.......oh well. Sorry!

--
My other ride is a RESERVE.

[Deuce 1]

Michele, I'm so happy for you!

You so seem to enjoy all the other aspects of skydiving, and fly very stable for someone with your numbers. Without the negative anticipation of the landing to preoccupy you, I'm sure all your skills will really take off!

Will you be jumping your own Spectre during the course?


JP

[Michele 1]

Morning, JP....

I fell asleep at the computer last night (I wasn't kidding when I said I was exhausted), so my post isn't up yet. Should be soon....I took the ground school and did my first three jumps yesterday, with several more to go in a few weeks. And it was all done in the 210. I have successfully "downsized", as it were...I think that as soon as I understand the stuff I was taught, in a real world, jump-my-ass off kind of way, the fear will completely dissapate. Twas truly amazing. The difference between the first jump and the last jump was like watching a different person...I know it felt like I was a different person...

Alan, I was so damned tired last night, that I didn't articulate my position too well, and did say what I said sharply. Not intended...but I still think that you, having not taken the class, don't really understand what is taught, how it's taught, and how amazingly clear it's taught. If you were to take the class, you would learn (and understand) far more things that I would...the difference being your experience level and my experience level. Your foundation has been built, and years of experience have built on that... I got a few slabs of concrete laid; my foundation is not yet complete. But I was missing that foundation, and now I'm not...it's a most intense kinda thing.

As for the celebrity status, my Dad is one. I don't care who you are. What you do and how well you do it, is what I judge on. Clint Clawson did my AFF1 video (and others), and I didn't know "who" he was. I just knew the dude could fly...and I wanted to fly, too...it's not "look who signed my log book", it's more of a "look - I can do this!"...but that's me.

Ciels-
Michele

~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~

[alan 1]

Quote

I won't attempt to speak for BillVon, but if I recall correctly the discussion and responses were a matter of degrees and what was being addressed wasn't simple light turb, but rather the kind of turb that would likely cause your canopy to collapse. All canopies can collapse, even airlocked ones. I believe the comment about going into brakes had something to do with putting the canopy back into the configuration in which it was most likely to re-inflate -- with the brakelines pulled down to the position they would be if they were stowed.

Yes Paul, I agree, what was discussed was a matter of degrees....including turbulence, both light and the canopy collapsing variety. Problem is, you don't always know or realize you are in the latter until it happens. Also, I was trying to focus the dicussion on landing approaches and they are a matter of degrees also....are you on downwind, final, or a carving approach, what kind of canpy (one of the newer HP variety was my focus), the altitude in the approach, etc.. I've never disagreed with the notion that all canopies can collapse. As far as using brakes to put the canopy back into a configuration for re-inflation after collapse, again, I would prefer to avoid the collapse in the first place even though I realize that that is not always possible. But I do know that brakes will put the canopy closer to collapse, especially in heavy turbulence. Re-inflation is, as you put it, a matter of degrees also. At 50 feet, on final, on let's say a Cobalt as one example out of many, I doubt brakes would be of much use for re-inflation. Sure, you would likely hit the ground with less energy, but why assume the worst ( turbulence that will collapse the canopy) instead of using speed to avoid the collapse? And at 50', perhaps dead is dead, no matter how fast you are going when you die. It is a matter of degrees, judgement, and experience. Please note that that was my point all along.....Do not just take the old advice of brakes on todays newer canopies and not question or test it. BTW, I have noticed in a later post in this thread by Michelle, that the Evolution School of Canopy Flight apparently shares my opinion and I believe Jim S. is a pretty credible authority, at least as credible as bill von, so I would still urge people to not just acccept the advice of using brakes when flying in turbulence during a landing approach.

alan

[alan 1]

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In defense of LawnDart, Alan, flying in turbulance is covered, and covered well.

That is reassuring and a credit to the school. I was worried, although now I'm disappointed that he admittedly didn't have a clear recollection of something so important. However, it must have left some impression on him because his non-instructor opinion, as he put it, concurred with what you were clearly taught. That is wonderful news, especially since it also happens to agree with what I have been attempting to preach here for some time now.

I'm not sure why you wouldn't take some personal pride in having been fortunate enough to have been coached by one of the best in the business, but I sure am proud of the fact that I have been given personal advice from people like John LeBlanc....I have confidence in it and am confident enough to share it. You seem to have read something negative into it, at least based on your comments about celebrity status.

I don't believe I made any comments determining the worth of the money, I simply made an observation based in Lawndarts statements. He stated he had no real recollection of canopy control in turbulence being taught. My observation was if that was true, it was a shame and perhaps the course wasn't so valuable after all. Wouldn't you agree that it is an extremely relevant and important topic? No, need to defend Lawndart BTW, he clearly gave is personal opinion as a non-instuctor and was in agreement with what you say was taught, which BTW, concurred with the advice I have been trying to promote here for quite some time now, in several old threads. All is well that ends well, and once again for the less experienced canopy pilots out there, take the time and jumps to learn your canopy and how it flies, don't just accept sage old advice as the gospel, give it its' due and try it out and compare with new ideas.

alan