qualifying new canopy designs

[cobaltdan 0]

A question was asked about buying a new canopy design. if one should wait for others to jump it and work the bugs out. The fact that this happens is completely unacceptable ! Skydivers through their purchasing decisions should reinforce this strongly to manufacturers.
Atair's testing regime begins with kiting, then instrumented flights on our rolling test rig. (This is a wind tunnel like technique, allowing close up video, and data to be taken from sensors not practical to jump with). Next, a canopy goes through a test jump schedule and routine. High speed data is logged from 9 sensors and belly cam video is taken. Atair is the only company in the world taking 4 point riser load data, let alone inertial position data. When required we take belly cam footage using a high speed camera, 35mm film @ up to 80fps. We have even taken internal video of our formed nose canopies in flight ! to exactly inspect nose distortion during different speeds and maneuvers (we use a micro miniature wireless video camera). After our rigorous in house jump testing is complete and passed, canopies are made for our professional jumpers. It is there job to jump the new design for a solid season and keep accurate logs. Only after a successful season and thousands of logged hard core jumps is the decision made to release the canopy for sale to the public.
Even minor design changes go through this full routine. I.e. the competition nose modification to the cobalt.
We have inspected every canopy design flaw that has made it into the market and asked ourselves if they would have passed through our test system. The answer is no, none of them would have passed.
Our test routine is extremely expensive, and strongly limits our expansion. Our canopy development has far out paced the financial capacity to qualify them. We have competitors with equal financial power to us but that have brought to market 4 times the number of new canopy designs than us in the same time frame. We could do this by cutting our testing practices. We choose not to. This is about passion, safety and perfection for us.
Sincerely,
Daniel Preston
Atair Aerodynamics
www.extremefly.com

[Canuck 0]

Very impressive Dan, but your post brings up an entirely different safety concern. Do you not risk spraining an elbow or shoulder patting yourself on the back so much?!
Canuck

[hobbes4star 0]

it's not post whoring it's post selling
why jump when you can fly

[TALONSKY 0]

Nothing like plugging your company and putting all other companies down by implying that they do not thoroughly test a new canopy design.
I find it very nice when companies come to these forums (Precision Aerodynamics and Big Air sports and Bill Booth I believe from STRONG) and talk about their products without the need to slam all other companies.
Kirk

[cobaltdan 0]

this was a reply to a question: 'what about.. atair?'
-dan

[freeflir29 0]

Dan....I don't mind a bit. It's good to read about what you guys are up to. If other manufacturers want to get on here and tell their story they are more than welcome. It's even a free website. "Here I come to save the BOOBIES!"

[quade 3]

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A question was asked about buying a new canopy design. if one should wait for others to jump it and work the bugs out. The fact that this happens is completely unacceptable !

To a manufacturer it may be unacceptable, however, to any consumer of almost any product but especially in the case of life critical devices, it's a fairly wise strategy.
quade
http://futurecam.com

[PhreeZone 15]

Bill Booth is with RWS... but thats beside the point.
In a way I agree with some of what Dan posted and why. I'd rather have the manufactors telling me what they are doing for their testing, even if its only test jumping it, then to hope their design is stable an become a paying test jumper my self.
Everyone seems to be thinking that he's slaming others, but can you tell me what your canopy manufactor did to test your design? PD and Big Air Sportz test jumps the shit out of a design the way I understand it. Icarus has pictures of wind tunnel test on their site, how about PA, Flight Concepts, North American.... how about them? Can you tell us how they prove a design before selling it?
I seem to remember some other people plugging their own canopies/rigs/etc on here too and nothing was said about them.
If once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny, consume you it will....

[Zennie 0]

Like others I personally appreciate that we get this kind of information. I see it as part of being an informed consumer.
Is this a wonderful sport or what? What other sport can you have extended, detailed conversations with the owners and engineers of the companies that manufacture the products we trust our lives with.
This place is a gold mine of information. Thanks again Bossman!
"Zero Tolerance: the politically correct term for zero thought, zero common sense."

[TALONSKY 0]

It seems that my previous comment was out of place, so I apologize
Sorry Dan
Kirk

[hobbes4star 0]

sorry i still belive that it felt more like a sales pitch than a post. also not to put you down dan i am also a sales guy, i just got done doing a demo of the cobalt 135 and i thought it was a very very good canopy. i am seriously considering buying one...
why jump when you can fly

[GroundZero 0]

hehehehe... we're keeping notes... go for it Dan! Still awaiting test results form NASA and the EUSA tunnel tests....
(unless it's a Russian wind tunnel we aren't aware of!!!)
Chris
I call bullshit! Only the jumpers can validate this.... This is an open forum.... I don't want to flame, but too many credible people buy these posts as fact, without substantiation. Let's keep it real or at least believable people.

[GroundZero 0]

Phree,
Do you know how many times the "picture" of the wind tunnel has been used in Icarus advertising? I do. Do you know how many times that wind tunnel has been used? I do..
...rolling test rig.
With respect to "(This is a wind tunnel like technique... )
Come on folks!
Everyone here on Sangiro's cyber world seems brighter than the average Joe...
Do not listen to the banter from the people (like me) trying to prosper from the sales... listen to the jumpers who actually have experience with a product.
Jump anything and everything, the equipment for you is what works best for you. Ignore any rants, etc. from the "source..." this is digital education, not e-sales. You, the consumer, needs to know the difference.
Chris.... jumper.
oy!!!!

[drenaline 0]

Hiya Dan, I think its great for you to post how the canopy at atair are tested, nobody else does that (I think) and are stuff good to know (makes great conversation topics). I like the cobalt and am thinking of buying one when my experience has the adecuate level.
I just have one Q: Who sew the canopies? The expert family tailor called Gramma (metaphorically speaking) or FAA riggers (if rigger what rating)?

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We have competitors with equal financial power to us but that have brought to market 4 times the number of new canopy designs than us in the same time frame. We could do this by cutting our testing practices. We choose not to. This is about passion, safety and perfection for us

Sounds like flamming? Everything was great until I read that last phrase.
"Life is full of danger, so why be afraid?"
drenaline

[crazy 0]

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Everyone seems to be thinking that he's slaming others, but can you tell me what your canopy manufactor did to test your design? PD and Big Air Sportz test jumps the shit out of a design the way I understand it. Icarus has pictures of wind tunnel test on their site, how about PA, Flight Concepts, North American.... how about them? Can you tell us how they prove a design before selling it?

No, i don't have any idea how any of my canopies were tested. And you know what? I don't care at all. For me it's enough to have enough confidence in the designer and the manufacturer. If i can sincerely believe that they do their best to produce good and safe products, i'll consider buying their products even without testing them. If they never quit patting themselves, bashing the others and making inaccurate claims, i won't even consider testing their products.
Dan can tell whatever he likes about kiting, wind tunneling, instrumented flight, high speed fata, 4 load risers data point, inertial position data, micro miniature wireless video camera... I'll get severe headhaches much before even starting to understand the words. So i prefer a designer who saves me the pain, who spends less time trying to impress the chick with his high tech equipment and who uses whatever techniques he feels appropriate for the job.
BB
Come

[cloud9 0]

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No, i don't have any idea how any of my canopies were tested. And you know what? I don't care at all. For me it's enough to have enough confidence in the designer and the manufacturer.

I don't mean to flame but this is a very dangerous philosophy. There have been many products released over the years that were not ready and just plain dangerous to use. On this forum you've heard of problems with the Nova and Crossfire but don't think that's the beginning and the end. I started jumping in 1975 through 1978 then quit for quite some time. Just in that time frame I can tell you there were several problems with canopies and equipment killing and injuring people. Think hard openings are new. Well when the competition PC came out people were getting slammed so hard that the chest mounted reserve was breaking noses, faces and even knocking jumpers unconscious. I can't remember the name of the canopy but there was one released that was shaped like a triangle it even had an arrow on it so you would know what point on the triangle was the front when packing. Thankfully it didn't injure and kill to many before it was pulled. When I first got my Strato Star ( a 5 cell square) in 1976 it had a reefing system on top (no slider) it looked similar to the rings on top of a crew canopy. It malfuntioned about 1 in 20 jumps. As a matter of fact I put 24 jumps on it before I had it modified to a slider. I had one malfuction and a friend of mine that tried it once had a malfunction. There were other things, containers, ripcord stops, new risers ect.
With the technology today this does not nor should it ever have to happen again. So with all due respect you should be very interested in how this new equipment is tested before being released. After all it very well could be your life or the life of a friend.
I'm sure there are several people on here that were around in the day that could give you all more detailed information on some of the stuff that has hit the market over the years.

[riggerrob 561]

Mr. drenaline,
Sorry to disappoint you, but most parachutes are sewn by Gramma, or little spanish-speaking ladies.
Parachute production is monotonous work. Few Master Riggers and even fewer skydivers have the patience to sew the same component day in and day out. Besides, Master Riggers expect to make a middle class wage. Ha!
Maria does not have to understand the entire process, she just has to be the best stabilizer sewer on the planet.
When I worked at Butler Parachute Systems, most of the sewing was done by Mexican/Californian ladies. We only had two white women in the factory.
When I moved to Rigging Innovations, most of the sewers were Mexican/Californian ladies, all of whom spoke Spanish. They could sew rings around most Master Riggers. Our best sewer was a refugee from El Salvador.
Since parachute sewers tend to be the top sewers in the garment industry, they are brighter than average and most of them also spoke English. R.I. only had two or three white women at any time, one of whom was an immigrant from Britain. When R.I. shut down its California factory, our best sewers moved over to Basic Research.
Fliteline and FreeFlight Enterprises drew workers from the same labor pool.
Because workers in first world countries expect to make middle-class wages, it drives the cost of production up, or to the third world. Sorry to disillusion many Americans, but many parts of California and Florida contain third world neighborhoods where Spanish is the dominant language.
Parachutes de France moved its canopy production to Mauritius years ago. PISA employs Hindu ladies who live in South Africa. Performance Designs moved much of it s production to Honduras, etc. Precision does employ white women, but they are Tenesee hillbillies.
It is a question of production economies. If you wnat a parachute sewn by a Master Rigger, it would cost 4 times as much as a parachute sewn by a little Spanish-speaking lady.

[drenaline 0]

Cool, I speak spanish, don't sew but speak spanish, anybody need a translator? Thanks for answering, I was very curious about that.
"Life is full of danger, so why be afraid?"
drenaline

[diver123 0]

I believe it's well within Dan's right to give out as much or little data on his product as he so desires. It definitely does NOT hurt us in anyway to be as well informed on this process as we can be, so worst case scenario is that we have excess material. As for the claims about him bashing other companies: He's never once called those companies out by name. How is his tactic any different than the leading toothpaste brand boasting a 94% better whitening ability than the markets "leading brand"? It's not... Yet you don't write the television stations complaining about all the commercials being played in the middle of your movies... Chill out already... If you don't like it, don't read it. But alas, it is also well within each of your rights to complain about things like this so I guess I have no room to talk either...
"pull high! It's lower than you think..."

[cloud9 0]

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But alas, it is also well within each of your rights to complain about things like this so I guess I have no room to talk either...

Maybe; maybe not. Its within the right to post but it seems I remember the rules being No personal attacks, no flaming if you mention someone by name in a negitive fashison then it is a personal attack. Yet I have seen this done to Dan by a few posters, everytime he post. So far I have not seen the rules that were established enforced against those people that would make personal attacks.

[fred 0]

I think of a personal attack as being more along the lines of, "CobaltDan is fat" not "CobaltDan is biased." The first is addressing the person, and the second addresses the message.
(And, for the record, I have no idea how much CobaltDan weighs, the 'fat' thing was just an example.)
As far as the original question, I think it's a personal

[diver123 0]

good point...
"pull high! It's lower than you think..."

[crazy 0]

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I don't mean to flame but this is a very dangerous philosophy. There have been many products released over the years that were not ready and just plain dangerous to use. On this forum you've heard of problems with the Nova and Crossfire but don't think that's the beginning and the end. [snip "back in the 70's" ]

The flaws in the design of canopies 25 years ago are not exactly my main considerations when i choose a canopy. Even the Nova was grounded more than 10 years ago. At that time, the knowledge, the methods and the technology available were quite different from what we have today. As a matter of fact, over the last 10 years, i wonder if there were any obviously flawed canopy designs put on the market in europe, north america, new zealand (as far as i know, the problem of the crossfire wasn't a problem of design but a problem of maufacturing), australia or south africa (i would even add russia, but i'm not sure). I'm talking here about tens (if not hundreds) of new designs, some of them being very innovatives.So, i have good reasons to think that most of the canopy designers are experts willing to do a good job.

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With the technology today this does not nor should it ever have to happen again. So with all due respect you should be very interested in how this new equipment is tested before being released. After all it very well could be your life or the life of a friend.

I can trust people who are experts in domains where i know shit; all of us do this all the time (food, transports, buildings...) Watching over their shoulder what they do will not help them to do their job and it is a very arrogant behavior indeed. Either i trust them and let them do the job, or i ask somewhere else.
Anyway, your views are quite interesting. I guess that you are very interested in the tests of new canopy designs, right? How did you get enough knowledge to be able to make a sound estimation of the reliability of the tests performed by the manufacturers? Did it take you a lot of time? Would you mind posting a summary of the overall knowledge required?
Blue Skyes
Come

[cloud9 0]

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I think of a personal attack as being more along the lines of, "CobaltDan is fat" not "CobaltDan is biased." The first is addressing the person, and the second addresses the message.

I agree so tell what part of the message does this address
(Do you not risk spraining an elbow or shoulder patting yourself on the back so much?!)
I would take that very personal wouldn't you?

[cloud9 0]

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Would you mind posting a summary of the overall knowledge required?

Not at all you see people are either like wolves, sheep, or sheep dogs.
The sheep just go along with the flow
The wolves prey on the sheep.
The sheep dogs challenge the wolves.
I prefer to be a sheep dog.