Wing Loading

[kopelen 0]

Question for experienced canopy pilots. What defines excessive wing loading? 1.0 is docile to 3.2 as highly loaded. I see people that jump canopies from 1.0 to 3.2 with about the same amount of jumps. I am assuming that preference comes first. Do I wanna swoop or do I wanna come in and hit the X. So can someone tell me in their own words what highly loaded means to them. ie at 400 jumps is a 1.3 is ok. Or better yet someone tell me their canopy progression. thanks

[AndyMan 7]

I just stole this from Icarus's website, at http://www.icaruscanopies.com/choosing.htm
Class 1
Student Canopy
.5 to .75 Lbs/SqFt wing loading.
This wing loading will perform basically as a student canopy. You may wish to choose a canopy in this range if you are very unsure of your ability, physically injured or disabled in some way, elderly or frail or as a student canopy. A canopy in this class should not be jumped in over 15 knots. These canopies are easily affected by turbulence.
Class 2
Docile
.75 to 1.00 Lbs/SqFt wing loading.
Still a very docile range. This would suit an advanced student canopy or a first canopy for someone preferring to err on the safe side. Again affected by higher wind conditions before most canopies would be.
Class 3
Mid Range
1.0 to1.25lbs/SqFt wing loading
This mid range of canopy is a good bench mark to work from. These canopies are high enough wing loading to start having a little fun yet low enough that a reasonably competent low time jumper could handle one as a first canopy (check with your C.S.O.) and still have a canopy they want to be jumping in a couple of hundred jumps time. This is also getting into the range that must be treated with a little respect however still has a reasonably good margin for error. Most of the canopies we sell are in this range. From this loading up, most wind conditions allowable for jumping are not a problem.
Class 4
High performance
1.25 to 1.65 Lbs/SqFt wing loading
Now we're having fun ! We're also into potentially high danger area! Turn speeds are increasing air speeds and speed range are increasing dramatically all of which provides us with a direct trade off between fun and safety. Canopies in this range must be flown to the ground! Recovery arc's are generally over 200 feet and toggle input movements are getting noticeably shorter. A high degree of experience and competence is necessary to handle a canopy in this range. Flying a canopy in this range must be done by feel, every maneuver must be well planned ahead as things are happening very quickly. With a high wing loading turbulence will affect the canopy less but if affected remember you are traveling much faster. Being dropped 1/2 a meter by turbulence under a class 2 canopy isn't even going to affect your stand up landing but being dropped 1/2 a meter in the middle of your ballistic turf surf could ruin your summer. The same goes for other obstacles - buildings, fences, people, other canopies, etc, have much more impact at high speeds. Even uneven ground or short landing areas should be considered obstacles. These canopies will still be traveling horizontally in nil wind conditions. A collapsible pilot chute is recommended. Lowering the slider and loosening ones chest strap is suggested.
Class 5
Extreme
1.65 to 2.00 Lbs/SqFt wing loading
Not for the faint hearted. If you are one of the few people that want to fly a class 5 canopy consider every aspect of what you are doing very carefully. On the up side there is very exhilarating airspeed, quick response times and powerful maneuverability. On the down side our margin for error has reduced to almost nothing (!), compounded by the fact that if we do make an error we are almost certainly traveling at speeds that can maim. If you have or are considering a class 5 canopy we can't tell you how to fly it in this overview, we must assume you know what you are doing. Most people I watch flying class 5 canopies don't fly them to the limits of the canopy and the performance they achieve from their canopy could be achieved from a class 4 canopy flown to its limits with a far greater safety margin. These canopies generally have to be run out on landing. They must be fitted with a collapsible pilot chute. Lowering and collapsing the slider and loosening the chest strap is recommended. Canopy recovery arcs can be over 400 Ft radius. The step from a class 4 canopy to a class 5 canopy can be quite large i.e. for a 80 kg jumper with gear and weights the difference between a 105 and a 95 feels similar to the difference between a 130 and a 105.
Class 6
BALLISTIC ! ! !
2.0 to 2.4 Lbs/SqFt wing loading.
If you are considering this, you don't need an explanation.
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[skybytch 259]

At 850 jumps I'm not sure I'm really all that experienced a canopy pilot but anyway...
Whether a wingloading is "excessive" or not depends a lot on the person flying it - how you want to land and fly your canopy, your personal perception of speed , your level of risk tolerance, how current you stay and your ability and experience level amongst other things. For me personally, a loading of 1.4 would be excessive - I don't want to swoop, I don't want a fast turning canopy, I don't want a lot of speed, I have a very low level of risk tolerance (pain sucks - been there, done that - and I like walking), right now I'm only doing 10-15 jumps per month and I'm not that good at flying a canopy.
I think experience is very important. Regardless of what some people may think, there is a big difference between having done 100-200 jumps and having done 500 or more. There's a lot that can happen that someone with 200 jumps hasn't seen yet. I'm also beginning to think that if you haven't either hurt yourself or seen a friend get hurt you can't really understand the amount of risk you are taking by flying wingloadings over about 1.3 or by flying more aggressive canopy types.
pull & flare,
lisa
If I can't have everything, well, then just give me a taste...

[billvon 2,426]

>Question for experienced canopy pilots. What defines excessive wing loading?
A wing loading you cannot land safely even in bad conditions.
>So can someone tell me in their own words what highly loaded means to them.
>ie at 400 jumps is a 1.3 is ok.
There is absolutely no way to make that call universally correct. If your fifth jump was on a Sabre 190, and you have 20 jumps in a canopy control course, you might be fine under a 1.3 at 50 jumps. If you're learning on your own, 1.3 at 400 jumps could be very, very dangerous.
Rather than try to decide what's the smallest canopy you can safely land, get a canopy you _know_ you can safely land. Experiment with it, learn from it, then ask yourself these questions:
Can I start the flare, drag my toes, then turn 45 degrees in either direction?
Can I turn 90 degrees at 50-100 feet and still land safely?
Can I land with rear risers only?
Can I land consistently on a 10 meter target?
Can I initate a HP landing with front riser, rear riser and toggle?
Can I safely land uphill and downhill?
Once you can answer yes to those questions, it's a pretty good bet you're ready to downsize safely.
>Or better yet someone tell me their canopy progression. thanks
Personally:
DC-5 (300 sq ft 5 cell; it was a long time ago)
Manta
Pursuit 215
PD190
Sabre 150
Tri-135
Safire 129 (~120 sq ft)
-bill von

[kopelen 0]

If I have been jumping a Spectre 170 with about 100 jumps at 1.23 on it with no problems. Does a cobalt 150 seem too aggressive with a WL at 1.33?
I have jumped the cobalt 135 and landed it both downwind and upwind with no problems on windy days above 13 mph.
I am stuck on deciding whether or not to buy a cobalt 150 or 135? WL difference is 1.33 or 1.44. Any suggestions out there?

[bhale 0]

If you have demo'd the 135 Cobalt, and landed it with no problems, both up wind and down wind, go for the 135!
Cobalts are great canopies, and have wonderful range for flare.
Be safe, have fun!!!

[rapper4mpi 0]

You didn't state how many jumps you have total? I think you are asking for trouble by even going with the 150. That would still put you at an innappropriate wing loading which is considered appropriate for experienced/aggressive pilots. At 100 jumps with the majority on a Spectre 170, I know you would be quite happy on the Cobalt 170, and this would put you in a fun wingloading of 1.2
I'm sure it is easy to discard my opinion, but coming from an instructor, you should at least consider buying a used semi-elliptical 170, putting another 130-150 jumps on it, then go for the new 150. Good luck!
-Rap

[PhreeZone 15]

Seeing that you are a SL instructor, I'm assuming you have more then just 100 jumps total. I like my Cobalt 150 at a 1.25:1 loading. There are a ton of times where I wish I had a 135 (I demoed one and fell in love with it), but experience has shown me the 150 still has a lot to teach me after 125 jumps on it.
If once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny, consume you it will....

[GrumpySmurf 0]

I asked PD about retaining my wingloading and switching over to an elliptical vs. staying with a semi-elliptical and downsizing by about effectively 10 sq.ft (the dif between a Safire 169 and Sabre2 150) - thier response was remarkably like yours (which is re-assuring), in the sense of 'get the experience'. I really hope they don't mind me sharing this.
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On a good day, I think probably anyone could fly the Vengeance/Stiletto without any problems.... but then think about what happens that one time you need to put the canopy down in someone's backyard, or what happens when some jackass cuts right in front of you on final - and your only option is to either turn, or fly right into that other guy... and that's exactly when experience and knowledge comes into play.
It takes time and jumps to build that experience, so I'd say get at least 150-200 more jumps before you go elliptical....
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Personally, I'm inclined to agree with the manufacturer - they know thier canopies and the typical person who would fly them. And Lisa has a point, watch a friend slam themselves in on a botched hook turn, it tends to make you re-think your next canopy choice.

[VectorBoy 0]

Hey Kope I was in a similar position myself, 100 some jumps on a [email protected] . Then was going to swap a gentleman who wanted to up size for gentler landings straight across for his cobalt 150@ 1.26 . I was hooked but he wasn't sure. See that cobalt can land slower than the spectre. A slightly smaller 9 cell will still be flying after the 7 cell has put down conditions being equal .Nine cell vs seven. Elliptical airfoil vs lower aspect ratio lightly tapered. My touch down speeds are actually slower. That cobalt has a fairly large flight envelope. Of coarse any fully elliptical is going to be much more demanding than any seven cell in all flight regime. More so the more its loaded. And of coarse the difference between a loading of 1.1 to 1.3 is nowhere as dramatic as the difference between 1.45 and 1.6 .
I am really going to miss my spectre but I have fallen deeply in love with the cobalt 135@ 1.4
Never put money before safety but it helps if you have a gear
dealer who will give you a good trade in on your 150 in 100 jumps or so when you want the 135.
I vote for the 135.