Top 5 RSL myths

[polarbear 1]

I am really surprised that more people haven't argued against using an RSL; most of the jumpers I know don't use them.
I think RSLs are a good thing.
If you look at the accident reports, you will find incidents that were made worse by an RSL. But, there are more that happen because someone cut away low and didn't get a rserve out, or because someone cutaway and didn't pull the reserve, or becasue someone couldn't find/pull the ripcord handle...
There are reasons for using one or not using one. You have to take the time to hear both sides of the argument and apply it to your personal situation. In this sport, knowledge is the first step to survival!

[rgoper 0]

yeah, and a lot of people that have survived auto crashes say that if they had ther're seatbelts on, it would've killed them. the truth of the matter is, we have no measuring stick, as flying with or without an RSL, except statistics. BUT more people drive cars than sky dive, so let's "keep it real"
Richard
"I'll See You On Space Station # 5 Baby, Next Time Around"
Sammy Hagar

[Dumpster 0]

Ok - Now you guys got me thinking- ( Some fairly pursuasive arguments out there-) I have no RSL on my Racer- From what I understand it's a unique RSL system- Supposing I decide to have it reinstalled ( I purchased the rig without RSL) What should I look out for and does it have any anomolies I should watch out for?
Life begins at 14,000' - Shut up and jump!

[Jimbo 0]

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1. What about when you do cut away from that violently spinning main? Isn't it possible that you will not be head high, or belly to earth, but spinning and toppling? And isn't it possible that you will have enough altitude to get stable?

I think it's a question not of what is possible, but rather what is likely. This debate will be of most importance to young or lowtime jumpers and it's unlikely that given the canopies and loadings this demographic jumps that they're likely to see the kind violently spinning mal that might be a legitimate reason not to use the RSL.
On the subject of violently spinning malfunctions: Isn't it likely that in the event of a cutaway from this malfunction that you'll be thrown far enough from the malfunctioning main that a reserve entanglment shouldn't be an issue? There's a lot of energy there, the body wants to go one way and the canopy wants to go another. I'm sure a few of you have been there, comments?
Finally, on the subject of deployment in a position other than head high and belly to earth. Doesn't the reserve system take this into account? I would imagine that the combination of a spring loaded pilot chute and a very docile main make for successful deployment in almost any position.
You used 'possible' quite a bit in your argument, but I argue that it's more important to plan for what's likely than it is to plan for every possibility.

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Cutaways at 600', yep, an RSL would be nice if you got hit and run on, but if you're entangled, it might be a toss up between opening right away, or a half second after you clear it.

If anyone has to cutaway at 600 feet then, in most cases, I imagine it would be in their best interests to have the RSL deploy the reserve system. In this situation, the RSL can save precious seconds that might have otherwise been spent searching for handles, moving hands from the cutaway to the reserve handle, etc...It's something to think about.

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The main reason being, have one set of emergency procedures. There are situations where disconnecting the RSL is recommended before cutting away, such as an entanglement.

I agree, one set of emergency procedures is important, I have one set - in all cases I will pull both handles.
Regarding the canopy entanglment - again, it's planning for what's likely, not what's possible. Unless I'm doing CReW it's unlikely (though certainly possible) that I'll end up in an entanglment.
In the end it's a personal decision, my only concern is that young or lowtime jumpers (of which I am one) are too quick to disconnect a potentially life saving device for reasons that they do not entirely understand.
Blue Skies and Safe Rides
-
Jim

[PhillyKev 0]

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I think it's a question not of what is possible, but rather what is likely.

That's the dilemna. I've searched and asked for any stats one way or the other. There's just too few incidents (that's a good thing) where RSL made the difference one way or the other. I don't recall ever seeing "RSL saved my ass" or "RSL killed his ass" anywhere. What you get is RSL could have saved him, or RSL could have been a contributing factor. And there's too even a mix of both.
One other point on why I decided the way I did is that whether we're talking RSL or AAD, they're both backup devices. With an AAD, it's only going to fire if you'll die if it doesn't. There are a couple exceptions where an AAD caused a problem (low pulls) but the stats show that saves far exceed the problems. With the RSL it's going to do its job whether you want it to or not (or whether it's needed or not). And the stats don't lean far enough one way or the other to convince me one way or the other.
So, for the time being, I'm content with my decision, but at the same time, if I find anything that makes me think I'm stupid not to have one, I wouldn't jump until it was hooked up.
cielos azules y cerveza fría
-Kevin

[skybytch 259]

My ex's second cutaway was a line over on a Sabre 135 loaded about 1.3. It was spinning pretty good. He chopped it (mentioned later that it took some real effort to pull the cutaway handle) and the RSL beat him to the reserve. He said he didn't think he was all that stable when he felt the reserve leaving his back. He had no problems - smooth, clean reserve opening.
I had another friend who had neither AAD nor RSL on his rig. He had a mal one day, chopped it and never pulled his reserve handle. I miss him alot.
pull & flare,
lisa

[billvon 2,435]

>What about when you do cut away from that violently spinning main? Isn't it
>possible that you will not be head high, or belly to earth, but spinning and
>toppling? And isn't it possible that you will have enough altitude to get stable?
Quite possible. Three of my mals have been spinners, one with an RSL. In all three cases I pulled the reserve as quickly as possible after the cutaway, and in all three cases I was not stable. No problems with openings. I had a line twist on one, but it cleared normally.
Reserves are _designed_ to open while unstable, so it's not much of an issue.
>But if anyone has factual numbers comparing the number of times someone has
> cutaway too low to deploy a reserve vs. the number of times people have
> cutaway and been in a tumble or spin with enough alti to get stable, I'd take that
> under consideration.
I think the important comparison is the number of people who went in because they cut away too low (that an RSL would have saved) vs the number of people who went in because their reserve didn't open correctly due to an unstable deployment.
>I have to disagree with you there. I've read of quite a few incidents, fatal and not,
> where reserves have entangled with cut away mains.
This is very, very rare unless there's an out of sequence reserve deployment (like a cypres firing) or a failure of the cutaway system (like a broken or stuck riser.)
>And if the reserve PC entangles with the main, your main could flap around and
> wrap up the lines of your reserve.
No - the reserve PC disconnects from the reserve, so any entanglement of the reserve PC doesn't necessarily cause you any trouble unless the main, as mentioned above, fails to leave.
>A couple of other reasons I decided against it. The main reason being, have one
> set of emergency procedures. There are situations where disconnecting the RSL
> is recommended before cutting away, such as an entanglement. I'd rather not
> have to worry about it. If I have one, no matter what I'd want to know and practice
> what to do under every circumstance. And that means there'd be a delay in my
> cutaway while I consider if I should disconnect or not. Seems to me I'd rather
>initiate my EP without thinking about it, rather than decide which route to take.
Well, an entanglement is an extremely rare event. If it happens at altitude you have time to disconnect the RSL, since it's a relatively low speed mal. If it happens at a low altitude (canopy collision near landing) it is a lot more likely to save your life than cause you trouble.
There are a number of unlikely situations (like a sudden low altitude canopy malfunction that is controllable but not landable, thus necessitating a canopy transfer) that might require a change in your emergency procedures. The issue is to decide if that's very likely. If it isn't too likely, then changing your gear or procedures to deal with the possibility - especially if it adversely affects dealing with more common problems - may not be a good idea.
>I did a lot of research on this issue before deciding, and found that there are real
>world examples, not just dz rumors, where the RSL may have exacerbated the
> problem, and where an RSL could have saved someone.
I'd be interested in seeing them.
-bill von

[billvon 2,435]

> have no RSL on my Racer- From what I understand it's a unique RSL system-
> Supposing I decide to have it reinstalled ( I purchased the rig without RSL) What
> should I look out for and does it have any anomolies I should watch out for?
Well, decide if you want to use it in single sided or double sided mode. If you have an AAD I'd recommend single sided mode. The original RSL can be hooked up either way, and a good rigger can modify the RSL so the single sided hookup is a bit cleaner.
-bill von

[billvon 2,435]

>Anyone... just how likely is it that you going to have a violently spinning mal?
The most common ram-air, propack malfunction is a lineover, and most lineovers spin very violently. Heck, Mantas with lineovers spin pretty violently.
>The most common reason I hear about disconnecting a RSL is the violently mal
> possibility.
Hmm. Reserves are designed to open while unstable, so I don't see that as a good reason.
>I tried this once to see how bad it could get, before poping your brakes,I only
>popped one side then let the canopy turn on its own.
For a good simulation of a lineover, take one brake line and pull it down about 8 feet. You'll need to take about 20 wraps or use your feet. This will simulate the canopy distortion when you get a line wrapped over the top of the canopy.
-bill von

[PhreeZone 15]

I'll try the wraps the nest time I'm at altitude Bill.... Never thought of trying it that way...
I wish you would step back from that ledge my friend... ~3EB

[Dumpster 0]

Thanks Bill!- I'll probably go single sided since I do have a Cypres- (Wouldn't leave the ground without one!) I must say this has been an informative and interesting thread!
Ciao-
Life begins at 14,000' - Shut up and jump!

[Donna 0]

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what a warm response you got to this post here. Wanna experiment and post it on
rec. and see what happens? Hee HEE......

And what about the other RSL post here that had 2 monitors threatening to lock the thread?
I don't see why you guys feel the need to knock rec all the time.
Skydivers are skydivers.
Blue Skies,
D

[PhillyKev 0]

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>I did a lot of research on this issue before deciding, and found that there are real
>world examples, not just dz rumors, where the RSL may have exacerbated the
> problem, and where an RSL could have saved someone.
I'd be interested in seeing them.

Just look through the skydiving fatalities page. I've read through them all several times to know what to be prepared for. There's a couple of examples of both sides on there, but again, you can only guess as to the result of a change one way or the other.
You're definitely giving me food for thought though. I appreciate the opportunity these forums give us to learn. I'll be thinking about this up to my next repack, and if I change my mind will have one added then.
cielos azules y cerveza fría
-Kevin

[Donna 0]

I know an experienced skydiver who had a spinning malfunction last summer and had an extremely hard time cutting away. I _think_ he may have had the cut away pad with velcro on both sides and that may have added to it. Anyway he finally did eventually cutaway and went spinning off..... and never deployed his reserve, whether it was due to waiting to get stable or whatever. Luckily for him his CYPRES eventually fired and his reserve had just enough time to fully open before he touched down hard. Quite a few people had told me that you don't need an rsl (when I was thinking of getting a racer and was questioning the double sided rsl) as long as you have an AAD. While that ended up working out in this case I know a few people gave the rsl a little more thought afterwards.
I agree there are pros and cons and everyone needs to see which scenario is more likely in their own individual case. In some cases you definitely shouldn't use one but I still cringe when I hear the new jumper told they don't need one if they have a CYPRES though.
Blue Skies,
D

[Remster 24]

Donna,
I cant see where anyone suggested that having a AAD has an impact of whether or not to have a RSL (maybe I cant see it.. long thread)...
what Bill was saying is a AAD and a dual sided RSL (racer type) is a problematic config and he recommended a single sided RSL on a AAD equiped Racer.
PS: while I enjoy reading some posts on rec, you must admit, the amount of static is much higher then on the topics forums here....
Remster
Muff 914

[Donna 0]

Remster -
No one did say it here, at least not in this thread. I was just pointing out an example (agreeing with Bill) of where an RSL could have helped in a spinning malfunction situation. I added the AAD part because it's something I've heard at my DZ and from a gear manufacturer that has never set well with me. Sorry for the confusion.

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PS: while I enjoy reading some posts on rec, you must admit, the amount of static is much higher then on the topics forums here....

Very true and the important words there are "topic forums". I love the 'safety and training' and 'gear and rigging' and the 'skydiving disciplines' forums on here. Lately some very experienced people have joined in and it's been great. (Initially that wasn't always true) Skydiving talkback has a lot of static. That isn't always a bad thing. Static can be fun too.... for those involved... and it's fun to talk about non-skydiving stuff sometimes. Unfortunately rec isn't segregated into different forums but if you know who to put in kill files or just skip or when to just mark a thread as read you can cut down on a lot of the noise. Also I've found when I ask a serious question I get a lot of helpful advice... thing is it often comes as a private e-mail which is too bad sometimes because then that info isn't being shared.
Blue Skies,
D

[polarbear 1]

I have also heard people say that a Cypres makes needing an RSL uneccessary. That is really a pet peeve for me...the two are NOT substitutes for each other; they are designed for different circumstances.
It is also true that having an RSL deploy the reserve is much cheaper than having a Cypres deploy it. Hey, whatever gets the nylon over your head. Just make sure its there! (and square, and flyable...)