Viking 0 #1 March 18, 2002 i have been hearing that several designs are no different that the name plates. Can you guys give me a List?The one i know of is the Sabre 2 and the HornetI swear you must have footprints on the back of your helmet - chicagoskydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 15 #2 March 18, 2002 They are a different design, but similar proformance. If you hold the templete of a hornet up to one of a Sabre2, you will see some big changes. Trim is different too. They were both designed to aim at ther same market and had similar requirements. Soft opening, 9 cell, certian toggle pressure, certian riser pressure, etc... You can only have limited designs that give you this end product. They are similar, but different.Others that are similar but different are the Stiletto and Heatwave, the Crossfire and Cobalt, and the Sabre and Monarch.I wish you would step back from that ledge my friend... ~3EB Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mountainman 0 #3 March 18, 2002 I think they put the Safire in the same catagory as Hornet/Sabre2. I love mine!! JumpinDuo.com...come and sign the guestbook. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kirils 1 #4 March 18, 2002 Being very old, I remember canopies from the 70's and 80's being very different in design, performance, releases bindings and material. It seemed every couple months a new canopy came out with a new radically different design. Now it seems every canopy is pretty much the same. Most improvements are cosmetic. Has the skydiving community become complacent? Has the technology reached it's limit? Take the 3 ring release system, it is lo-tech and works OK. but it is far from ideal. We blame most all deaths and injurys on "jumper error". True, but could advanced technology have compensated for that error? Skydivers should deserve and demand better equipment. Skydiving is not a static excercise with discrete predictability... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 15 #5 March 18, 2002 The 3 rings.... They are the most effecient single point release system with the largest room for error that I've ever seen (And I've seen lots from the past). There are alternitives, but all most all require much smaller manufactoring or assembly tolerences. The 3 ring is easy to assemble, easy to maintain and is near fail proof. What else could you want in a system?Canopy design has reached a point where the canopies are capible of doing things the jumpers body is not capible of surviving through. Canopies can be designed to do toggle turns fast enough to cause blackouts, they can be designed to have a dive rate that requires starting at 1000 feet plus for a hook... They can also be designed to have near paraglider glide ratios.The end market is what drives parachute design. In the 70's and 80's everyone was looking to get away from the PLF on every jump and have more control with thier canopy. Remember there was a point where you had to have so many round jumps before you could jump a ramair? Also look at the malfunction rate of some of the stuff from the 70's. Delta 2's were something like 1 in 25 or 1 in 50 jumps was a Mal. I think we have came a ways from then...I wish you would step back from that ledge my friend... ~3EB Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kirils 1 #6 March 18, 2002 We have come a long way! ( I have most of my experience under a surplus T-10 & a UT-15 ) But the rate of technology advancement has slowed way down. Skydiving is not a static excercise with discrete predictability... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflir29 0 #7 March 18, 2002 QuoteBut the rate of technology advancement has slowed way down.I think thats because we have kind of reached a stalemate at the moment with ram air design. The manufacturers have about pushed the envelope as far as it will go with the present materials we have available. Someone will break the mold and come up with a radically new idea in the next 5 years or so. I'll bet on that ..... "I only have a C license, so I don't know shit..right?"-Clay Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AndyMan 7 #8 March 18, 2002 QuoteI think thats because we have kind of reached a stalemate at the moment with ram air design. The manufacturers have about pushed the envelope as far as it will go with the present materials we have available. Someone will break the mold and come up with a radically new idea in the next 5 years or so. I'll bet on that ..... He already did. His name is Brian Germane(sp?). His idea was airlocks. Currently they're only on high performance canopies, but they're slowly becoming mainstream._AmICQ: 5578907MSN Messenger: andrewdmetcalfe at hotmail dot com AIM: andrewdmetcalfeYahoo IM: ametcalf_1999 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 15 #9 March 18, 2002 Check out the Lotus..... sweet entry level Airlocked canopy. Very similar to a Sabre2 or Hornet in proformance plus the added benifits of the Airlocks!I wish you would step back from that ledge my friend... ~3EB Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AndyMan 7 #10 March 18, 2002 Safire, Sabre2, and Hornet are bascially sorta the same.Triathlon, Spectre, Icarus Omega are sorta the same.Stiletto, Crossfire, Heatwave, Cobalt are sorta the same.Chaos and Extreme VX and FX are sorta the same.PD Vengence and Big Airs Samurai are sorta the same, but it's starting to get real fuzzy.ICQ: 5578907MSN Messenger: andrewdmetcalfe at hotmail dot com AIM: andrewdmetcalfeYahoo IM: ametcalf_1999 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kwmontreal 0 #11 March 18, 2002 I would love to get my hands on Brian's new canopy!!! I guess the secrets out!! Air lock and crossbraced, that has got be be some wing. Hats off to Brian and "Big Air Sports", it is innovative individuals like Brian who will take us to the next level!! Cheers Brian and thanks from all your "extended" family!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #12 March 18, 2002 I agree w/ everything except lumping the VX in w/ anything else. There are some more 9-cell x-braced stuff coming on-line here soon, but the VX is in a class all it's own.Hook Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GrumpySmurf 0 #13 March 18, 2002 But then that would require them to make the Sabre2 a round, to have equal glide to the Safire. I've semi-affectionately nickname my Safire 169 to my 'slightly taper round' Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AndyMan 7 #14 March 18, 2002 QuoteI agree w/ everything except lumping the VX in w/ anything else. There are some more 9-cell x-braced stuff coming on-line here soon, but the VX is in a class all it's own.That's fair. In my mind, that was the x-braced pile. In my mind the difference between a seven and nine x-brace is pretty insignificant, as I can't even see myself jumping one for years._AmICQ: 5578907MSN Messenger: andrewdmetcalfe at hotmail dot com AIM: andrewdmetcalfeYahoo IM: ametcalf_1999 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,478 #15 March 18, 2002 >But the rate of technology advancement has slowed way down. Ha! I think the opposite is true. We now have more options than ever before. We're seeing another big new change a year. Airlocks, Vectran lines, cross bracing, extra reserve PC, the Chrysalis cutaway system, articulated harnesses, very smart dytters, birdman suits . . .Of course, none of the above is truly new. There's a patent from 1970 that covers the airlock, and another even older one that covers cross-bracing. Wing suits have been around forever. But only now have we bothered to perfect those things, make all the parts work together.One thing we _are_ seeing is the "tyranny of the masses" standardizing gear. Most people want a 3-ring release because that's all they've ever seen. They don't even know what the Chrysalis system is, and they've never seen Billy Weber's reverse 3-ring system. Those are all options that we could have if we wanted, but the 3-ring works OK and it's well established - and all your friends have it.-bill von Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Viking 0 #16 March 18, 2002 bill to demonstrate your point, what is this Chrysalis system?? I swear you must have footprints on the back of your helmet - chicagoskydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ramon 0 #17 March 18, 2002 old skool monarch and Sabre are sort of really the same I mean really...samurai/vengeance They are both airlocked...and PD is actually makings some of brians samurais but they are very fuzzy things (flown both many times). they have different airlock attachments.Vengeance is the highest aspect ratio canopy PD makes and it is trimmed very steep with shallow brakes (ala stilleto). I don';t know how they did it but a vengeance seems to have the biggest recovery arc of a non cross braced canopy.Samurai has less aspect ratio and is trimed flatter and very deep brakes. it flat turns wonderfully and will glide forever in rear risers.They might have the same freaking airfoil for all I know, but they fly like to totally unrelated canopies. Maybe it is just the line trim.If I were jumping a medium canopy I like a samurai, but If I were jumping a smaller one I like a vengeance..???P.S. I have flown every canopy in your list and mine except (sabre2, and VX) so I agree with you and hook pretty much Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ramon 0 #18 March 19, 2002 three rings that isr Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
