billvon 2,400 #51 August 17, 2012 >The problem comes when you don't trust everyone who you jump with - then a glance >above could be a good idea, along the lines of: >- check below >- flip to a back track >- check above >- flip to belly, check below, flare and pull Happened to my wife once. She was tracking off, and below her was another jumper (one of the organizers actually.) He barrel rolled to look above him, rolled back to his belly - and pulled. He later claimed he never saw her. That time would have been far better spent getting farther from the center of the formation (and Amy) than it would have been doing a useless barrel roll. He is now a staunch opponent to the barrel roll, partly because of his own experience. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sundevil777 93 #52 August 17, 2012 Quote It's the person above and behind (the one you would see between your legs) that is of the most danger to collide with you when you deploy. You must have a really steep (bad) track.People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,623 #53 August 18, 2012 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuote'looking back between your feet and keeping your buddies in sight'. In all fairness, between your feet isn't where you should be looking... Scanning side to side (which will give you a view of whats above and to the side with peripheral vision) and below is where you should. it depends on your AoA and whether you are tracking with good form (chin tucked to chest) - you can actually see quite a bit looking down your legs backwards when you are tracking for max distance while preserving vertical altitude. Of course you can see a lot backwards. But why the hell is it important to see who is back there, as opposed to who's closer to you? Well, I usually glance back early in the track to confirm that I'm tracking directly away from the center. Then I look where I'm going.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pms07 3 #54 August 18, 2012 QuoteReplying to Davelepka because his post is the last in the thread. Between all the 'you should(n't) do all this while tracking' stuff, I kinda miss 'looking back between your feet and keeping your buddies in sight'. If you know where everyone else on your group is, you get fewer surprises at pull time. Am I missing something? Yes, you are missing looking at where you are going and the people you could actually track into. Do you focus your attention behind you while driving down the interstate at 90mph? Look (mostly) in the direction you are traveling and where the greatest risk of collision exists... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JackC1 0 #55 August 18, 2012 Quote The person above, in front and tracking well is of little threat to you. ... that is of the most danger to collide with you when you deploy. Two friends of mine are dead because of this. I'm not saying keep looking back, I'm saying make sure you're tracking away from everyone else early on, look behind, look around, and look where you're going. You cannot be too vigilant at break off. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DocPop 1 #56 August 18, 2012 Quote>The problem comes when you don't trust everyone who you jump with - then a glance >above could be a good idea, along the lines of: >- check below >- flip to a back track >- check above >- flip to belly, check below, flare and pull Happened to my wife once. She was tracking off, and below her was another jumper (one of the organizers actually.) He barrel rolled to look above him, rolled back to his belly - and pulled. He later claimed he never saw her. That time would have been far better spent getting farther from the center of the formation (and Amy) than it would have been doing a useless barrel roll. He is now a staunch opponent to the barrel roll, partly because of his own experience. To play devil's advocate here - your wife did the other option - looked down whicl tracking and still got over the top of the other guy, clearly neither option is a panacea. I have yet to be convinced by any of the don't roll posts on here. It seems to me that if there might be someone above - check above before you dump into them. I always treat everyone elsein the air as though they are trying to kill me. A bit like defensive driving."The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls." ~ CanuckInUSA Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 6 #57 August 18, 2012 A bit like defensive driving... Quote Yeah, that's why I always power-slide a quick 360 coming down the on-ramp before i merge a freeway. Sure i COULD just look back and signal my intentions...but I like to use the maddskillz I have that few other drivers possess! Those less adept behind the wheel may think i'm a nutter - but THEY know zip about driving 'defensively'! ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DocPop 1 #58 August 18, 2012 Quote A bit like defensive driving... Quote Yeah, that's why I always power-slide a quick 360 coming down the on-ramp before i merge a freeway. Sure i COULD just look back and signal my intentions...but I like to use the maddskillz I have that few other drivers possess! Those less adept behind the wheel may think i'm a nutter - but THEY know zip about driving 'defensively'! "The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls." ~ CanuckInUSA Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
obelixtim 100 #59 August 18, 2012 Quote Quote A bit like defensive driving... Quote Yeah, that's why I always power-slide a quick 360 coming down the on-ramp before i merge a freeway. Sure i COULD just look back and signal my intentions...but I like to use the maddskillz I have that few other drivers possess! Those less adept behind the wheel may think i'm a nutter - but THEY know zip about driving 'defensively'! You just keep on what you are doing Doc. Just make sure everyone else on the load is made very aware of YOUR breakoff protocol. Every time you jump. Give them a fair chance......My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DocPop 1 #60 August 19, 2012 Quote You just keep on what you are doing Doc. Just make sure everyone else on the load is made very aware of YOUR breakoff protocol. Every time you jump. Give them a fair chance...... Doesn't apply to me - I only do H&Ps"The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls." ~ CanuckInUSA Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
obelixtim 100 #61 August 19, 2012 QuoteQuote You just keep on what you are doing Doc. Just make sure everyone else on the load is made very aware of YOUR breakoff protocol. Every time you jump. Give them a fair chance...... Doesn't apply to me - I only do H&Ps Thats fine...but then you need to think carefully about giving advice about another aspect of skydiving that run counter to accepted good practice. There are people out there who make take that advice to heart, and that puts not only themselves, but others in more danger than is necessary. Long and bitter experience has taught us a few lessons about how to go about things. That is the reason more than a few people tend to disagree with you.My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dqpacker 7 #62 August 19, 2012 You guys must suck at tracking if you don't have time to play with a buddy and barrel roll and shit, get a few docks in and pull in clear airspace. I'm fat and I can do it, but I'm also not a old belly guy either. also I wouldn't call it a barrel roll but a short back track after a long belly track and more for fun than safety. and I'll add that "barrel rolls" are only useful on dive's that have gone to shit or are never a formation, like a tracking dive. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DocPop 1 #63 August 19, 2012 QuoteQuoteQuote You just keep on what you are doing Doc. Just make sure everyone else on the load is made very aware of YOUR breakoff protocol. Every time you jump. Give them a fair chance...... Doesn't apply to me - I only do H&Ps Thats fine...but then you need to think carefully about giving advice about another aspect of skydiving that run counter to accepted good practice. There are people out there who make take that advice to heart, and that puts not only themselves, but others in more danger than is necessary. Long and bitter experience has taught us a few lessons about how to go about things. That is the reason more than a few people tend to disagree with you. I never intended to give advice in this thread - I was just entering the discussion with my thoughts. I still have yet to be convinced that not checking above you before you deploy is a good idea. But I guess I am done with this thread."The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls." ~ CanuckInUSA Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
obelixtim 100 #64 August 19, 2012 QuoteI still have yet to be convinced that not checking above you before you deploy is a good idea. But I guess I am done with this thread. I didn't see anybody advocating "not checking above you". You can do a pretty good check by swivelling your neck. Granted there is still a small blind spot, but that is the reason for the good track, and good wave off, and a reason to be checking below so you are not above someone else at pull time. A barrel roll at pull time is not a good idea. For someone not intending to give advice, you seem to argue your case for a barrel roll quite strongly, in the face of contrary, and reasonable advice from many people with vast experience and time in the sport. Many safety practices in the sport have evolved the way they have for good reason, and in some cases are not really negotiable.My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DocPop 1 #65 August 19, 2012 Quote QuoteI still have yet to be convinced that not checking above you before you deploy is a good idea. But I guess I am done with this thread. I didn't see anybody advocating "not checking above you". You can do a pretty good check by swivelling your neck. Granted there is still a small blind spot, but that is the reason for the good track, and good wave off, and a reason to be checking below so you are not above someone else at pull time. A barrel roll at pull time is not a good idea. For someone not intending to give advice, you seem to argue your case for a barrel roll quite strongly, in the face of contrary, and reasonable advice from many people with vast experience and time in the sport. Many safety practices in the sport have evolved the way they have for good reason, and in some cases are not really negotiable. There is a difference between having a discussion with point and counter-point and giving advice. I'll state right here that nothing I have said in this thread should be taken as advice. I was merely trying to understand the reasoning behind the no barrel roll crowd's thoughts. Clearly this is not one of those non-negotiable safety rules you mention, as there are plenty of people in the yes to barrel rolls camp - including Rook Nelson (for whom I have a lot of respect). As I said above - if you trust 100% the person above you to have the skill and observation skills not to be above you at pull time then your method could work. But I would rather not dump blindly into a potential collision."The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls." ~ CanuckInUSA Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #66 August 20, 2012 QuoteIf you do it to "clear your airspace" before pulling on a bigway expect to get cut from the next dive and replaced with someone with better judgment. +1My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,400 #67 August 20, 2012 >I have yet to be convinced by any of the don't roll posts on here. That's fine; this is the Internet, and it's generally wise to view all things here with some suspicion. The argument that will convince you is the organizer that tells you "try that again and you're cut." (Or it may not convince you; problem solved in either case.) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
livnbored 0 #68 August 20, 2012 I do not agree with the barrel roll plan. I have unfortunately had the experience of tracking away from a shit show and had someone end up tracking underneath me (we were all off level) and they did a barrel roll, and they were soooo focused on doing their barrel roll that they had no clue I was there. When they wove off I pitched immediately and got on my rears to open my sabre1 as fast as possible as I knew I could get it open quickly. When we got to the ground he had no clue whatsoever that I was there. Granted, I shouldn't have been above him, but I found a line and tracked that line and he ended up tracking alongside a friend and then breaking off from that which screwed up all the trajectories. Perhaps he was too busy being a hot shot to notice there were other people on the jump. I don't know. But I do not think barrel rolls help people see anything if they're not willing to actually look. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
yeyo 1 #69 August 22, 2012 I think there's a biiig difference between (1)doing a quick barrel roll, and (2)back tracking for 2 seconds at the end of your track just before pull time. A barrel roll doesn't give you time to really scan the sky above you, and I think its not productive at all. But if you can maintain your heading and speed while transitioning to back tracking, then you have time to look for people above you. BTW, I dont do either.HISPA #93 DS #419.5 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,400 #70 August 22, 2012 >I think there's a biiig difference between (1)doing a quick barrel roll, and >(2)back tracking for 2 seconds at the end of your track just before pull time. I think that back tracking for two seconds while an errant tracker gets under you and pulls could be a bad thing. I saw a recent video where something similar happened; fortunately the canopy missed the jumper. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
yeyo 1 #71 August 22, 2012 Quote>I think there's a biiig difference between (1)doing a quick barrel roll, and >(2)back tracking for 2 seconds at the end of your track just before pull time. I think that back tracking for two seconds while an errant tracker gets under you and pulls could be a bad thing. I saw a recent video where something similar happened; fortunately the canopy missed the jumper. Yes! no doubt, very bad thing!...but you already spent the first 6 seconds of your track looking for those. I should've said "back tracking for 2 seconds at the end of your track just before pull time, after making sure nobody is in the cone under you". After all, clearing the space below us is the #1 priority, as in the lower tracker has the right of way, always. Like I said, I dont barrel roll or back track during break off, but I think the latter could be done safely and effectively.HISPA #93 DS #419.5 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,400 #72 August 23, 2012 >Yes! no doubt, very bad thing!...but you already spent the first 6 seconds of your >track looking for those. I should've said "back tracking for 2 seconds at the end of >your track just before pull time, after making sure nobody is in the cone under you". Right, that's what this guy did. Video shows a tracking dive that gets messy, then he tracks off. Then he's clearly looking around. Then he barrel rolls. Fortunately he only stays on his back for a second, because when he rolls back over, there's a canopy coming his way from beneath him. Had he tracked for two seconds instead there's a good chance he (and the person below him) would have been dead. To me it makes no sense to look where you have been before deploying. It's like approaching a traffic hazard at 60mph - and then turning around and staring out the back window in case someone is tailgating you before you try to stop. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
piisfish 135 #73 August 23, 2012 do you mean that you don't look behind you before slamming the brakes, particularly on a scheduled stop ?scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DocPop 1 #74 August 23, 2012 Quote do you mean that you don't look behind you before slamming the brakes, particularly on a scheduled stop ? Of course not! Why would you need mirrors in a car? "The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls." ~ CanuckInUSA Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
piisfish 135 #75 August 23, 2012 Quote Quote do you mean that you don't look behind you before slamming the brakes, particularly on a scheduled stop ? Of course not! Why would you need mirrors in a car? for the makeup ? scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
