crossbraced canopies

[skybytch 259]

More and more jumpers of whatever experience levels are saying they want to, or have been told they should, buy a crossbraced canopy to make their swoops better/longer. Many of them say that they are very careful jumpers and they only do straight in approaches or 90 degree toggle carves so they think/have been told they'll be just fine on a crossbraced canopy.
If you aren't landing very aggressively - by this I do mean hooking it 180 or more with front risers - and planning to load the crossbraced canopy at 2.0 or higher, why waste your money on a canopy that was designed to be heavily loaded and hooked?? You're NOT getting the kind of landing/flare/swoop that the canopy was designed for if you aren't doing a very high performance approach and loading it at or above 2.0!
If you aren't ready or don't want to land your canopy that way you don't need a crossbraced canopy. Buy something in the Cobalt/Crossfire/Nitron class and learn to fly the shit out of that if you want to be a swooper. After a couple hundred jumps on one of those, after you've learned to perform a very high performance approach, then it might be worth your money to go with a crossbraced canopy.
Just my opinion.... don't be taken in by marketing and don't let someone who just wants your money talk you into something that really isn't right for the way you fly a parachute... Just like I wouldn't recommend or sell a Triathlon loaded at 1.0 to someone with 500 jumps who really wants to swoop, I wouldn't recommend or sell a Velocity loaded at whatever to someone with any number of jumps who never uses their front risers.
*crossposted in the swoop forum*
pull and flare,
lisa
--
What would Scooby Doo?

[flyinryan 0]

It is good to see someone finally say this. I asked one of our local skygods once if you could even land a Velocity in a straigh in aproach and his response was "yes, but why would you want to?" It is nice to see someone who sells gear give a no shiter about cannopies.

[nws01 0]

Everyone thinks that downsizing to an elliciptal "swoop machine" canopy should be when they feel comfortable with their current canopy. I was impressed in the interview in the recent Parachutist with J.C. Coclasure with his canopy progression.
Parachutist: Describe your canopy progression starting as a student.
JC: Manta 240 - 15 Jumps
Sabre 210 - 40 Jumps
Sabre 190 - 100 Jumps
Sabre 150 - 100 Jumps
Stilleto 150 - 900 Jumps
Stilleto 135 - 200 Jumps
Stilleto 120 - 300 Jumps
Icarus FX 115 - 1,000
FX 112 - 1,000
VX 94 - 1,500
This guy is 6'4 205 exit weight.
I am no expert but I think think people with experience will recommend that when you become experienced with you current canopy such as a PD 190 making a small decrease to a 170 than a 150 then to an elliciptical will save your life. Too many of us are injured / killed moving to canopies with too much performance at a too high wing loading and that is the top reason skydivers are killed / injured nowadays. Yes we are confident but also remember we want to be around to jump again.
Anyone agree?
-Nathan

[cloud9 0]

Well said Lisa.
The thing that amazes me is that most of the people that want to down size like that have no desire to push the canopy. What I mean is they will not use riser turns, they will not hook turn and they want stand up landings that they don't have to run out. With that in mind they start looking at crossbraced canopies. Its really unreal to me. I see all the time people on the DZ that start talking and get nervous when the wind dies down to zero. Some even quit for the day if the wind dies. Only a very small percent of skydivers will ever use the performance of a Ultra high performance canopy.
So folks start thinking about, do you want nice soft standup landings even on no wind days on most of your jumps? If so you'll probably never need anything more then a Triathlon, Sabre/2, Hornet, Safire, Spector, Cobalt or something in that class your whole life to really enjoy the sport.

[prost 0]

And then there are some of us that get excited when the wind dies.
Surfs up!!
William

[prost 0]

It is sad that it is becoming the cool thing to do. I really enjoy high performance landings, but some people just downsize because everyone else is. I can understand the person that likes to spiral an turn fast that downsizes, but I think the current cross-braced canopies are not the way to go for these people. A stilletto or Cobalt would seem much better suited.
William

[amir1967 0]

From the photo's that Ive seen in " Skydiving " it's seem to me that J.C. Coclasure is 5'8" or 5'10" and 160lb or the guy's next to him was 6'8" and 300 lb but maybe I need new glasses
amir
AM67

[billvon 2,464]

>If you aren't ready or don't want to land your canopy that way you don't need a crossbraced canopy.
I wonder if that's true. We don't need squares to be able to skydive, yet even students jump them now. We certainly don't need ellipticals, and if someone told me when I started skydiving that new jumpers would one day get elliptical canopies (like the Spectre) shortly after graduating, I would have said just what you did - no one needs an elliptical unless you want to make ultra high performance landings.
Yet the Spectre is not only a successful canopy, but often recommended to people in the 50-100 jump range. I have to wonder if someday we'll see cross-braced canopies sold to the same people. After all, the use of cross-braces leads to more efficient and structurally rigid canopies, and there may come a day when they are desired for those characteristics as well as their ability to make high performance landings.
-bill von

[PhreeZone 15]

Very true, but untill the day that crossbraced canopys are not designed for a student weighing 55 pounds..... I doubt we will se many first canopys be x-braced. Airlocks give a similar rigidity and are a whole lot easier to incorperate into any canopy design. Look at the Lotus. Its a great starter canopy and its Airlocked.
I want to touch the sky, I want to fly so high ~ Sonique

[weid14 0]

JC is a fairly big guy, Luigi on the other hand is like 90 pounds soaking wet

[skybytch 259]

I agree bill, ten years ago if anyone had told me that today I'd be recommending zp canopies to people just off student status I'd have told them they were smoking some really good stuff; I'd have said the same thing if they'd suggested that today I'd be flying what is technically an elliptical canopy.
But I still think my point is valid - the crossbraced canopies available today are imho not suitable for the way the majority of skydivers fly their canopies. If you aren't very aggressive and highly skilled, there's no reason to go that small or that fast.
pull and flare,
lisa
--
What would Scooby Doo?

[Jimbo 0]

Quote

Yet the Spectre is not only a successful canopy, but often recommended to people in the 50-100 jump range. I have to wonder if someday we'll see cross-braced canopies sold to the same people. After all, the use of cross-braces leads to more efficient and structurally rigid canopies, and there may come a day when they are desired for those characteristics as well as their ability to make high performance landings.

Interesting that you mention this, I noticed the other day that there are far fewer 'squares' on the market now than one might expect. Icarus doesn't even make a square, PD has only the original Sabre - even the Navigator is eliptical now, precision still has the Monarch, but with the GZ project I think it won't be long before that goes away. I think it won't be long before the 'square' parachute is no more.
-
Jim

[freeflir29 0]

"PD has only the original Sabre"
Did they drop the entire 9 cell line?
"Houston? That place is full of Crack heads and debutantes."- Hank Hill
Clay

[Jimbo 0]

Sorry 'bout that - I was referring to new ZP mains. I forgot about F111. :)

[skycat 0]

you know all this talk about crossbraced canopies made me remember one of the guys at the DZ talking about a crossbraced F-111 canopy that used to be manufactured. Anyone know anything about them, I don't want one, just curious.

[PhreeZone 15]

The progression of high proformance canopies invloves the Excaliber... a 21 cell non cross-braced canopy from PD. I think it was made with ZP, but it might have been F111.
I want to touch the sky, I want to fly so high ~ Sonique

[Jimbo 0]

There's a guy who shows up occasionally at CK with an Excaliber, I'm pretty sure I've heard him mention that it's F111.

[PhreeZone 15]

I know Our Skymonkey used to fly one so I'll send him and RiggerRob a PM..... It's bothering me I don't know my canopies.... I want to touch the sky, I want to fly so high ~ Sonique

[SBS 0]

"And then there are some of us that get excited when the wind dies.
Surfs up!!"
I'll second that. :-)
Steve

[Jimbo 0]

Actually, this post found on wreck.skydiving seems to confirm that the Excaliber was in fact an F111 canopy.
Here's a snip from the discussion:

Quote

>Also I ask myself why make a copy of the Excaliber? I've never seen one
>but you have to wonder why PD stopped making them?
Good question! I jump one and love it. Some say they can't be
landed. I have no problems. I have it fairly highly loaded and don't
need to hook it to get a great landing. Hooking it _does_ produce a
nice landing though :-) With all the extra intercell ribs pack volume
and canopy weight suffers a bit, maybe that was a contributing factor
towards it's demise? The design still makes a lot of sense. The
excaliber was comparible in performance with the (early) ZP canopies.
They both out performed their predecessors becuase they could maintain
the rigidity of their aerofoils longer (the ZP through it's fabric
design, and the F-111 excalibur through it's canopy design). makes
you wonder what would happen if you combined the
2-supporting-ribs-per-cell design with ZP fabric and the eliptical
shape. This is probably what the Extreme/Icarus canopy designers have
done, and if so it's no wonder that they are getting the performance
and allowable wing loadings that they claim.

It's interesting, this post is from a while back, March 1996, for whatever it's worth, the rest of the thread is fairly interesting too: complete thread here.
-
Jim

[skybytch 259]

The Excalibur was built from F111 fabric.
pull and flare,
lisa
--
What would Scooby Doo?

[PhreeZone 15]

I live for those days where the wind blade is just hanging there, with just enough breeze to move the tip back and forth...... like 2-4 mph.... then its DOWNWINDERS!!!!! Nothing feels better then being the last one down on those hot summer days surfing a downwinder 180 degrees different then the rest of the pattern.
I want to touch the sky, I want to fly so high ~ Sonique

[AndyMan 7]

Quote

Interesting that you mention this, I noticed the other day that there are far fewer 'squares' on the market now than one might expect. Icarus doesn't even make a square, PD has only the original Sabre - even the Navigator is eliptical now, precision still has the Monarch, but with the GZ project I think it won't be long before that goes away. I think it won't be long before the 'square' parachute is no more.

That's very insightful. I've heard rumours that even Aerodyne is developing a set of nine cell elypticals. Didn't Bill Coe take a job there for this purpose?
_Am

[Aviatrr 0]

Quote

If you aren't very aggressive and highly skilled, there's no reason to go that small or that fast.

IMO, there's a reason that those crossbraced canopies are not made in very large sizes.....they need to be loaded to reap the benefits.. I recently got a chance to jump a Xaos at about a 1.8 loading......it flew great, I'm impressed by the canopy, but I didn't feel I was loading it heavily enough to justify a crossbraced.. I'm currently loading my Nitron at the max recommended by Precision - so I think a crossbraced may be my next step, but that won't be in the immediate future.. I'll have to wait and see what comes about in the next year or so - especially the Xaos27 and the new Atair crossbrace..
Mike

[amir1967 0]

thank's I've mix between two great pilots
amir
AM67