A Triathlon loaded at 1.2 for a newbie??

[Milo 0]

Hello,
I almost added this to the 'Cobalt Demo, A New Jumper’s Perspective' thread, because it falls right in line with where that thread has gone.
I'm a new jumper, just off of student status. I purchased a rig with a main that I will load at 1.15 to 1.2 depending on if I wear weights or not.
I know I'm not ready for this now, I've never jumped anything loaded less than .6. My dz has transition rigs that will take me to .8 (I'm a lightweight jumper)
I hate renting, and I didn't want to buy a rig I'd only want to use for a month and then feel it was too slow.
I also don't know much about my rig. It is a Triathlon 120 main, a Raven 137 reserve. I wouldn't have bought it if it wasn't such a good deal. I got it for the price of the reserve and Cypres (used prices at that). I may be better off pairing them with a new container and main.
I haven't even taken my rig to my dz to be inspected by the rigger yet. I know I'm not experienced enough to jump it, and I'm not looking forward to having them tell me the obvious.
I guess my question is not about my ability, I'm a good judge of that and I respect the opinions of the people who teach me, but more about the Triathlon. I'm not a daredevil, I'm not trying to impress anyone, I just want to enjoy skydiving, safely. Is this Triathlon a main I can expect to safely transition to from a .8 to a 1.2 wingload? I have read many good things about that main here and elsewhere. Is it unrealistic for me to think about jumping it in another 25 or 50 jumps if my canopy control is good with my present available rigs under the above mentioned loadings? I've been happy with my canopy control so far, but I know I'm taking moped experience and trying to apply it to a Harley I've never sat on.
Your input is appreciated.
Milo
P.S. On proofreading this, going from my current wingload of .6 to 1.2 in a month or two sounds really drastic. Is it? If my canopy control is as good as it has been and continues to improve? To put it in my perspective two months ago I was afraid to jump from 3500' and now I'm sorry my dz only files to 10,000'.

[Geoff 0]

My experience may be of interest to you
I went from jumping F-111 student / rental gear loaded at about 0.8 to my first rig - a Sabre 150 - loaded at about 1.1. I had 40 jumps.
It was really scary to start with - I didn't really feel in control, and breathed a sigh of relief after every landing. I suppose I was lucky and got away with it - I only had one minor injury on landing.
An extra 50 jumps on an intermediate size would have helped a lot.
Basically it was a mistake.
Geoff

[mountainman 0]

Here is my own experience and it was just over this past weekend. It has been debated on here a LOT, but I went with my own judgement on ordering it.
I have been flying a Raider 220 since my 3rd jump and I load that at 1.05:1. It is F-111 which is obviously the slower/less responsive material.
On my jump # 27, I went to an Icarus Safire 189 which I load at 1.22:1. I jumped this for two days (7 jumps) and then went down to the Safire Icarus 169 and used that for a day (4 jumps). I load that 169 at 1.36:1.
Now, I know that a lot of people on here have a problem with me loading a ZP canopy at 1.36 with less than 40 jumps, but I had absolutely NO problems with it over this weekend. I landed it in weeds, crosswind, no wind, and high winds. I felt very comfortable on it and didn't even think twice about it.
Ever since I started skydiving, I have felt comfortable landing canopies. I have stood up all but two of my landings. All of my Safire landings were stand-ups/run-outs.
All I have to say is that you have to use it when YOU feel comfortable. If you have been doing really good on your landings, maybe you are ready. However, if you keep biffing it in, maybe you need some more practice. Remember, ZP canopies are a lot different than tired F-111 student canopies.
I would agree with Spectre and open high. That will allow you to find the "sweet spot" on the canopy to make it flare where you want to. That is what I did and had no problems.
Have fun and be safe!!!
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Boogie pics coming!!!

[skybytch 259]

Can you handle it? That's up to you and your assessment of your ability and willingness to accept the risks. Being able to transition down over 20-50 jumps instead of going from .8 to 1.2 in one jump will help make it safer.
Besides opening high, I'd suggest doing your first jumps on it with some wind. Fly conservative; continue to learn and practice canopy control skills, and be willing to upsize for a while if it really scares you - it will wait until you're ready for it.
pull and flare,
lisa
---
I chose the road less traveled. Now where the hell am I?

[Snowflake 0]

before I would say anything I'd ask how are your landings if your biffing at your current wing loadings I would be hesitant to tell you to downsize. Ask your JM's who have watched you what they recomend they are probably the best judges.
JG

[Milo 0]

Thanks for all your responses.
I do think this is a viable main to work my way down to, providing my landings continue to be good, I continue to improve on my canopy control skills and I transition down properly.
I don't know if that will happen this fall or next spring, but it won't happen if I or the people at my dz aren't comfortable with it.
Thanks again!
Milo

[Milo 0]

For anybody who cares:
I took my rig to my dz today and it took them about 2 minutes to convince me it is too small for me.
This morning I was convinced I'd be jumping this rig by the end of October or early next spring, but now I have to figure out (with help from my rigger) what I can save and what I can sell from my current rig to get a rig that's right for me.
With a 6 pack of beer in me while sitting at a keyboard I'm a world class skydiver. My balls aren't so big when I'm anywhere near a plane.
I listened to my rigger talk a 190# student into buying a 190 sq ft chute, on the basis that 1:1 was good.
I was then told that 1:1 for inexperienced jumpers was good except for smaller chutes, which are inherently more dangerous, because they are smaller.
I don't know if I follow that logic, but even though I'm ready to jump any jump, or argue any argument from the computer, my perspective is different at the dz.
And if I don't follow the logic, I respect the experience and judgement of the folks at my dz.
So, from my perspective, I need to talk to people I trust before I try to convince myself I am ready for something that may be beyond my abilities. For those of you who are experienced and have the opportunity to steer a new jumper toward safety as opposed to danger, speak up. I didn't want to listen to what I read on this forum, but I did listen to the 'old hands' at my dz.
And I flared too high on my next landing, which closed the discussion for me.
Milo

[Merrick 0]

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"I landed it in weeds, crosswind, no wind, and high winds. I felt very comfortable on it and didn't even think twice about it."

Cool, I thought you said you only got to jump it twice... the weather must have been really F**ked up that weekend to give such a wide range of conditions.
I'm not going to preach at anyone about overloading their canopy, there is already about 3 threads going on about that... what I will say is that I do believe that a person's wingloading should be based on their own feelings & education, their instructor's opinions, and several several demos. As someone said in another thread, you can kill yourself just as dead under a Manta 288 as you can under a vx46.. however, as far as small mistakes go where injuries result, would you rather have a broken femur or a broken fibula (or even toe). The faster your canopy, the more likely the injury will be more severe!

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"I have stood up all but two of my landings."

Good Brandon, you sound a lot like me at that point, I have just about twice as many jumps as you do (I know, still not very experienced either), does that mean that we will never botch a landing again? I know it feels like that, but hell... even a good landing can result in a broken leg!
I jumped a Skymaster 260 loaded at .85:1 for almost all of my first 16 jumps, then went straight to my Sabre 190 loaded at about 1.16:1. Not too smart, but I had faith in myself & so did my instructors. I didn't have any troubles at all landing or doing much of anything under my sabre - that is until I got my brand new RW suit about 20 jumps later, first 2 landings in that suit ended up on my knees (no injuries tho).. it's just new suit carma, it hasn't touched the ground since. I've put roughly 50 easy jumps on that canopy, but the last one landed me in the hospital. It only takes one big planet to get in your way... a rock, tree sprout, Hell.. even a soybean root!!! That landing was actually pretty damn cool, right up until that evil soy bean reached up & grabbed my toes, hell.. I would have even stood that landing up if my leg hadn't been broke (just sort of fell over cuz it couldn't hold me up). lol
I really have no business discussing this topic, I defended my decision to soon downsize to a 1.3:1 wingloading for about a week on these forums. Yeah, when I was at about 30 jumps I felt like I was ready for a 170 maybe even a 150, but decided to wait cuz even tho I felt I was good enough to handle it, I knew that I didn't have the experience to make that decision. Now, more than twice that many jumps later, I KNOW that I wasn't ready, even tho all my instructors, my DZO, and myself said that it wouldn't be a problem..... There are so many variables to total canopy control that I simply did not have enought time under my canopy, or any canopy, to explore.... especially not ever having deployed higher than 4500ft. NO, I haven't had some revelation by the wingloading gods that be, I'm not scared now that I broke my leg, in fact... once I get back in the air & get a few more recurrency jumps on my 190 I'd still like to go to a 170. Brandon, I don't mean to sound like I'm picking on you, cuz ultimately this is your decision & it's already been made. This is just my opinion, especially not having seen you jump, but a 1.36 wing for a newbie is borderline insane.... then again, we do jump out of airplanes! lol Just be very very careful, never get too confident or lax... cuz it can bite ya, even if you DON'T screw up (trust me). I'm sure that you'll go unscathed your entire jumping career, but in my opinion it is variables like these that point to the not "if but when you get hurt" factoid. Peace brudda, and be safe.
"If words were wisdom, I'd be talkin' even more.."

[ramon 0]

My first was a triathlon at 1.28.
Be careful initially because it does turn a faster than student rigs.
This is a very forgiving parachute to have to load up a little as a first main. It is very stable, accurate and opens softly and reliably.
good luck
ramon

[mountainman 0]

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I thought you said you only got to jump it twice

I jumped the Safire 189 seven times and I jumped the 169 four times on the last day. The winds were pretty weird that day along with the clouds.
I'm not sure if everyone thinks I'm trying to say my name is Luigi and I fly for Icarus, but I ordered what I feel comfortable on and will stick with it.
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Boogie pics coming!!!

[cloud9 0]

Hi Milo
I jump a triathlon loaded at 1.2 and I find thats its a great novice canopy. I a lot heavier then you so mine is a 175. I don't think you'll have any problems at that loading on a triathlon. Its forgiving but still fast enough to give you great landings and fly into the wind on those less then perfect days.
Now the big question does a 175 loaded at 1.2 fly the same as say a 120 loaded at a 1.2? I don't think so, I think the smaller you go the more effect wing loading has on a canopy so while a 175 triathlon loaded at a 1.2 might be safe for a newer person. A 120 triathlon loaded at a 1.2 may not.

[Merrick 0]

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"I'm not sure if everyone thinks I'm trying to say my name is Luigi and I fly for Icarus, but I ordered what I feel comfortable on and will stick with it."

I don't think anybody has called you crazy... err.. I mean Luigi. Listen, I know how you feel man, when everyone gave me shit over downsizing I damn near lost it. I mean, who the hell are all these people, these perfect strangers, that have never even seen me jump at all telling me that I'm gonna kill myself at a 1.3 wing (just up from a 1.15 - Oooh, big jump there)?!!? It gets frustrating & annoying feeling like you have to defend yourself, the only people you have to answer to is you (well, & maybe Laura), if you & your JM's think it'd be good for you.... go for it!
I guess my entire point, summed up, was that a 1.36 is a balsy wingloading for someone with 100 jumps, much less a newbie. Just like Cloud9 said, a 175 (or whatever) at 1.2 isn't as aggressive as a 120 at 1.2. You're, in my opinion, on the apex of more "High performance." There's no doubt in my mind that you can handle the 169, just like I have no doubt that I could jump & land Pam's 135 (1.63:1 wingloading) without any problems... am I gonna' do that.. Hell NO! LOL Just be careful, & be aware that what you're getting won't be as forgiving in the instance that you do fuck up. Hell, sounds to me like you got a pretty nice set-up, I've heard the saphire's are a lot of fun to fly & relatively easy to fly once us loyal PD followers figure out the flare... & the wings, they look & sound pretty cool, but still haven't gotten a chance to see one or try one on.. let me know what you think!
Remember the three most important things, have fun, pull & flare!
"Pammi's Hemp/Skydiving Jewelry"

[Donna 0]

Quote

Now the big question does a 175 loaded at 1.2 fly the same as say a 120 loaded at a 1.2? I don't think so, I think the smaller you go the more effect wing loading has on a canopy so while a 175 triathlon loaded at a 1.2 might be safe for a newer person. A 120 triathlon loaded at a 1.2 may not.

Good point! There was a very good article a few months ago in Skydiving magazine addresssing this very issue. Some very experienced people at my dz were even surprised by some of the info in there. They brought a copy to the dz and are always having new jumpers read it before ordering gear.
Brandon - Good luck with your canopy. Can I ask what Laura is loading hers at? I agree with some of the points Merrick was stating but like him I agree it's your choice so I won't say any more. I think canopy size is a very individual choice. I had the opposite problem.... lots of people (and manufacturers) telling me I should have gone smaller. My triathlon is loaded at .85. It's what I'm comfortable with. My husband loads his at 1.1 and has been very happy with it. I think that the area your from has some bearing on what people eventually choose, too. Our area is a bit more conservative than others.
Safe landings!
Skies,
D

[FallingMarc 0]

I'm confused by the differences in size canopies at the same wing loading. I realize that I don't know much, I haven't been in the sport that long, but it just logically seems like a canopy design, i.e. Triathlon, is nothing more than a wing of a certain shape. It would make sense to me that a glider with a certain shape would fly the same with the same loading, regardless of the actual size. Please correct me as I am going to be jumping a Triathlon 135, but at 1:1 or a little over, this weekend...
Marc

[Milo 0]

In reply to:
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I'm confused by the differences in size canopies at the same wing loading. I realize that I don't know much, I haven't been in the sport that long, but it just logically seems like a canopy design, i.e. Triathlon, is nothing more than a wing of a certain shape. It would make sense to me that a glider with a certain shape would fly the same with the same loading, regardless of the actual size. Please correct me as I am going to be jumping a Triathlon 135, but at 1:1 or a little over, this weekend...
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I'm interested in this too, specifically because experienced jumpers at my dz (who have witnessed all my feats and failures) have steered me away from a smaller chute due to dangers from smaller chutes, regardless of wingloading. I don't know if they are pushing me to a larger chute because of my ability or because of physics. (I'm following their advice. They are old, they have jumped many many times, they are still jumping.)
Milo

[prost 0]

At some point a small canopy has to be evaluated on more than just wingloadings. The difference is, a small cnopy at a 1.2 wing loading will turn much faster than a large canopy at 1.2. Its control range is much shorter. This means that on flare the range between a good flare and a stall is much smaller. If one toggle is pulled slightly more than the other on landing, the smaller canopy will turn to that side much more. This is all at the same wing loading. Forward speed will be simular. It is because of this shorter control range that we need to be more conservitive with smaller canopies.

[Craig 0]

Taken from the PD website under the link "Seminars" "Wing Loading and it's Affects"
FYI their use of "proportionally scaled canopies" is as follows:
"jumping a small canopy at your normal exit weight, and then jumping a much larger, scaled
canopy, with enough extra ballast so that the wing loading is the same."
C. Some reasons for differences in performance between large and small
canopies:
1. Turns: In general, the smaller the canopy, the shorter the lines. Its true that
two proportionally scaled canopies may have similar full glide speed at the
same wing loadings, but they turn very differently. The big canopy, with its
long lines, has relatively sluggish reaction to the controls, and the small
canopy has relatively quick reaction to the controls. This is due to the fact
that the large canopy must move the jumper a much greater distance out to
the side, in order to achieve a certain bank angle needed for any given turn
rate. This means that the smaller version of a canopy will feel much more
agile, even if flown at the same wing loading.
2. Flaring: A dynamic flare is one that results in a change in flight direction
from a descending path to one parallel with the ground. This requires a
change in the angle of the canopy, when viewed from the side. (Initially, the
amount of the angle change is about equal to the angular change of the flight
path.) This angle change is accomplished using toggle a movement that
causes the jumper to move out in front of his natural hanging place under the
canopy. The long lines of a big canopy require the jumper to be moved a
greater distance out in front to achieve the same angle. Shorter lines mean
that the jumper doesn’t need to move as great a distance forward to achieve
the same angle. This means the toggle movement must be more aggressive
on the larger canopy, compared to the smaller canopy, even at the same
wing loading.
3. For similar reasons to those above, the smaller canopy will also dive more in
hard turns, when compared to a larger scaled canopy, even when flown at
the same wing loading.
There are several other articles there that are worth reading as well.

[lazerq3 0]

Man I must be a pussy!!!!! All this talk about loading canopies at 1.1 to 1.3 ect....and I'm Flying a PD170 at 1.0 (40 jumps)and still havent learned everything about it! O'well its kept me standing up on some pretty funky crosswinds. People have said its a slow ass canopy but its fast enough for me for now. can even get a little 15-20ft surf outa it if the winds are down!
jason

[PhreeZone 15]

Your not a wuss... your smart! Any canopy can be considered slow once you jump something smaller. Your probally better prepared to land a reserve then most people since you are used to the slower speeds and the F111 Flare.
Do I HAVE to do another raft dive???

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