Talk back

[Squeak 17]

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I was going to donate to ensure the continued survival of a free service that I enjoyed. Since that service is no longer accessible, the reason for my wanting to donate has been removed. Should that forum come back and remain, its safe to say that I'll definitely toss some cash out to support it.

at what point are you going to beleive it will REMAIN,
We have a saying here in Oz "Put up or Shut UP"

You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky)
My Life ROCKS!
How's yours doing?

[skybytch 259]

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I was going to donate to ensure the continued survival of a free service that I enjoyed. Since that service is no longer accessible, the reason for my wanting to donate has been removed. Should that forum come back and remain, its safe to say that I'll definitely toss some cash out to support it.

So your 39 posts in forums other than Talkback today weren't enjoyable or worthy of a donation then?

Interesting.

[MikeMcLean 0]

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Now we're talking about encryption, and user validation and blah blah blah, c'mon, get real, just cut the crap....

You mean crap like tracking down every single repost and post whoring by posting a repost notice? Doing this so regularly that it even becomes named. I wonder how many total posts are "Crazy Ivans" and therefore how much bandwidth, database hits, etc.

And don't give me crap about trying to "help" by pointing them out. By the time you post your "repost" notice it is too late to prevent the repost.

It wouldn't hurt you to think like a fucking serial killer every once in a while - just for the sake of prevention

[GiaKrembs 0]

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In Reply To
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Then, my favorite forum got axed, so I decided not to donate,

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Haha! I decided to donate because it got axed! This is a much needed lesson for some that this is not your playground!
_______________________________________________

This has prompted me to want to donate as well.... The last donation was about year ago, albeit it was a sizeable donation for Sebazz (of which I never got the date) . The point is that Sangiro does go out of his way to maintain this place for us, it's the least we can do for him, not because the particular forum we use is no longer available (Sorry Kris, no disrespect just my feelings).

Although I don't post much, pretty much lurk. I enjoy reading the posts and utilizing the other links provided on DZ.com.

I truly believe that it's a matter of respect. Respect for Sangiro who has done a fantastic job with this web site, and respect for the moderators who have to put up with all of our crap on a daily basis.

I give Sangiro mad props!!!
I guess since this is a suggestion forum I should actually make one.... Suggestion for the day - give a little something back! Share the love all

Ciao for now, g

Raddest ho this side of Jersey #1 - rest in peace brother
Beth lost her cherry and I missed it
.... you want access to it, but you don't want to break it.

[MikeMcLean 0]

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It's my belief that anyone who spends a lot of time here should donate out of the goodness of their heart until the site pays for itself through advertising.

It's my belief that a site can either (a) solict donations or (b) sell advertising, but not both. The mere fact that an ad is present and takes up a small little bit of my bandwidth and (more importantly) a small little bit of my attention is a payment from me towards the site. You don't freely make "donations" towards on-the-air broadcast TV do you? No, because you have paid for that TV via the advertising on it.* Also, note, that in either (a) or (b) case I am a customer, not a guest.



* I specifically said on-the-air to not confuse the issue with cable TV fees (which are a delivery fee, not a content fee when talking about the traditional TV channels).

It wouldn't hurt you to think like a fucking serial killer every once in a while - just for the sake of prevention

[Keith 0]

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It's my belief that a site can either (a) solict donations or (b) sell advertising, but not both. . . . Also, note, that in either (a) or (b) case I am a customer, not a guest.

Belive what you want, but here you're a guest.

Keith

Don't Fuck with me Keith - J. Mandeville

[bbarnhouse 0]

There is another solution for those that just want to visit. Its called dropzone.com chat and you are welcome to talk about anything that you would like.
There are many folks behind the scenes that donate their time,energy and talent to contribute to this community.
Rec dot, I think not but hey, if folks don't like it here the door is that way -------->
I post quite a bit in Talk Back since it gets the most views and if information needs to get out I generally post there.
What it comes down to at this point is a lack of respect. IF folks play nicely together perhaps TalkBack will be available. Until then, stick to the topic in the topical forums.
Warm Regards to all.
B2

[mailin 0]

I know my opinion matters about as much as the computer screen your reading this on... but I'll shoot anyway.

I have been reading through this thread and the threads that lead up to Talkbacks demise (so to speak) and since no one has said exactly why it was shut down, I'll take a stab at it.

1. The forum got too big.
2. Too many totally non-skydiving posts were made
3. The moderators were spending too much time trying to censor.
4. Everyone got tired of seeing the same stuff crop up again and again.

From what I read, size wasn't the issue. It was suggested that threads be deleted but was told that wasn't necessary.

The forums 'rules' were sporadically enforced which is confusing to people that posted. Personal attacks were labeled as one of the only rules why a thread would be locked, yet many threads were overlooked. The thread that started the riot in talkback said nothing against the 'rules' - I think this was were the majority of the problem lies. It's unclear where we stand with the moderators. I post alot of political threads in talkback because I enjoy discussing politics with skydivers. If I wanted to have a political discussion with Joe Regular - I would (and have!). If this is against the 'rules' then say so! I don't think anyone was saying that you didn't have the right to do what you did, just if its done we need to know why - I think thats only fair.

Moderators spending too much time... Set the rules, and chances are pretty good that people will follow them with minimal reinforcement, we just need to know what they are. All the topical forums have a "think before you post" sticky - why can't talkback?

Too many threads on the same stuff... I can solve this one for you - really. The forums are set up here that each time a thread is replied to, it moves to the top. I'm a computer programmer, as are alot of ppl who frequent this site, and can solve this. Write the forum to post to the topic without moving it up in the que, and set it to purge all topics over 2 months old. Many larger sites do this - and it would solve the whole REPOST problem too. Seriously... I don't donate because like alot of other people we have no money, and I'm saving up for AFF/gear/jumps etc., but I would be willing to rewrite it for you - really.

Talkback is an invaluable tool. I know you feel it is too much work right now - but its been the best for me. Just reading posts by other skydivers about aboslutely nothing has helped me to understand the culture involved, and has eased my mind tremendously about starting AFF this weekend.

Similar to Dagny, I don't post on the skydiving topical forums becuase its been made pretty clear that us newbies don't belong. So where do the newbies go before they are no longer newbies? They go to Talkback to help understand the culture and learn by reading the topical forums. If Talkback is not around then I don't see myself staying around either - as Kris said, our instructors are more willing to help with any questions we may have about skydiving (and should be the first place we go anyway).

I'm currently involved in an amazing skydiving project (and I'm not even a skydiver yet). This project has amazing potential. Through it I am no involved with some of the biggest and best names in skydiving. Without DZ.com this project would never (did I say NEVER) have even been mentioned if I hadn't spent time in Talkback, becuase without the time I spent in Talkback I wouldn't have felt comfortable enough to post in the particular forum I did in order for this project (which by the way, will impact the entire skydiving community - you wait and see), to even get off the ground.

This site does amazing things for newbies. We love and appreciate all that you do for us, and skydiving in general (I know you guys don't hear this enough) - so please don't take it away from us. Just like any good relationship, communication is key - and I know you guys don't want to see anything bad happen from this.

Jennifer

Arianna Frances

[BikerBabe 0]

Youch. This seems to be turning friends into enemies just over a simple forum. That's bad.

That being said, as a member of a bunch of other message boards on various subjects, the common thread throughout every single one is a "junk" or "off-topic" forum. It is an essential part of any message board. Not having probably will end up making the greenies' jobs HARDER in the end, since the topical forums will need constant moderation to keep the junk topics out.

My suggestion is to set up a way to automatically archive older threads from TB. That way they aren't deleted, but they are moved to an "archive" forum and locked. One of the boards I'm on actually has code that sends old threads to a separate place if they haven't had a new post in 7 days, leaves it open, but moves it back if someone chooses to post in it past the 7-day point.

[tongue in cheek] I found another reason to bring Talk Back back....the repost police are starting to invade the other forums! I HATE the repost police! Please bring back TB so they can go back there! [/tongue in cheek]

But seriously, I agree that the TB was getting out of hand and taking a break from it was probably a good thing. I'm don't post in there too much, anyway.

That being said, with TB gone, a lot more posts are appearing in the topical forums...looks like closing it actually HELPED the topical forums. Which means more people are talking about skydiving than boobies...and that's a good thing, right?

Never meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup!

[skymama 35]

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You don't freely make "donations" towards on-the-air broadcast TV do you? No, because you have paid for that TV via the advertising on it.*

Broadcast TV has enough advertisers to pay for their service. Dropzone.com does not, most of the cost comes out of Sangiro's pocket.

Broadcast TV is run by huge corporations with shareholders. Dropzone.com is one guy with a laptop.

Broadcast TV is a business, through and through. Dropzone.com is a guy with a vision who used his computer skills in his spare time away from his paying job to create a place for skydivers to hang-out on the internet. It's not a business, it's a hobby. You're not a customer, you're a guest.

Broadcast TV is full of behind the scenes people whom you will never meet. Dropzone.com is the guy sitting next to you on the plane. He's one of us. He does this for us.

You are a guest here, not a customer. It's common courtesy to bring your host a gift when you go to his house. Knowing Sangiro personally, I'm quite sure that as soon as the advertising covers the cost of the site, the donation link will come down. You are not required to make a donation...it's just the nice thing to do.

She is Da Man, and you better not mess with Da Man,
because she will lay some keepdown on you faster than, well, really fast. ~Billvon

[TomAiello 25]

Directed to all, just responding to the last post.

Lots of people are saying "just make the rules clear and we'll follow them."

Has it occurred to you that it takes time (and evolution) to come up with a clear set of rules?

Give it some time. I imagine clearer rules and a little more organization will be forthcoming. This is just another step in the ongoing development of this community.

Relax. Kick back. Log off for a week or two. Heck, maybe even go skydiving. This is a long way from being the end of the world.

-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[MikeMcLean 0]

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It's my belief that a site can either (a) solict donations or (b) sell advertising, but not both. . . . Also, note, that in either (a) or (b) case I am a customer, not a guest.

Belive what you want, but here you're a guest.

You know, I completely get that this is the party line, and that one must groupthink this in order to stay in the good graces of the staff.

Keep this in mind, however, if someone with a grievance had the time, money, and desire s/he could hire a lawyer, file a lawsuit against dz.com with a customer-business type claim and stand a chance of winning. This would be especially true if that person had either "paid" for access to talk-back (as some are proposing) or had made a "donation to help with bandwidth costs." The court system would have a really, really bad reaction to "this ain't no damn democracy" and "you are a guest in HH's house," and all the other groupthink lines that are thrown around.

The case might loose on it's merits, but it would be heard -- there wouldn't be a quick dismissal due to there being no customer/business relationship.

Just something to think about -- there are people, even in our skydiving community, with the time, desire, and money to make this point in this manner.

It wouldn't hurt you to think like a fucking serial killer every once in a while - just for the sake of prevention

[MikeMcLean 0]

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Relax. Kick back. Log off for a week or two. Heck, maybe even go skydiving.

One problem -- most of the habitual troublemakers in TB aren't skydivers.

It wouldn't hurt you to think like a fucking serial killer every once in a while - just for the sake of prevention

[MikeMcLean 0]

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Until then, stick to the topic in the topical forums.

Show me one post of mine, in the topical forums, that is off-topic.

It wouldn't hurt you to think like a fucking serial killer every once in a while - just for the sake of prevention

[Nightingale 0]

mildly amusing, yes.

a service I'd toss money at, no. I didn't have nearly as much fun online today as I did a couple of days ago.

if it was still a great place to hang out and BS with friends, that I'd pay for.

[skybytch 259]

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a service I'd toss money at, no. I didn't have nearly as much fun online today as I did a couple of days ago.

if it was still a great place to hang out and BS with friends, that I'd pay for.

Fair enough. Just didn't understand your reasoning was all.

[Nightingale 0]

what it amounted to was that today I was logging on because I was bored and had nothing better to do on a slow day at work.

A few days ago, I was logging on because I really wanted to. Therein lies the difference.

[misskriss 0]

I Have made a donation in the past and will do so again very soon. I miss Talkback even though I don't post as much as I used to because I don't know as many people there anymore. I am a reluctant skydiver(please don't be offended that I referred to myself as a skydiver even though I've only made tandems.) .... I have three tandems and could very well do tandems forever but I'm hoping to get over my fear. I love skydiving but haven't trusted myself enough to do it by myself ....but I have made so many great friends here and it has helped me stay in touch with the skydiving world. It's something I really, really want to achieve. I even made a very good friend here who helped me get a job manifesting at a local DZ. I don't always agree with everything but the saying is true...you don't realize how much you miss it till it's gone.

[Nightingale 0]

I would ask the mods if it is the plan for the forum to be kept, and would trust their word on the matter. Course, I'd probably wait a week or so just to be sure.

[skr 1]

> Has it occurred to you that it takes time (and evolution) to come up with a clear set of rules?

> This is just another step in the ongoing development of this community.

I agree with this.

I was on the WELL (Whole Earth something something) in the
80's and there were tremendous thrashes about etiquette and
procedure and responsibility.

And rec.skydiving was a great place to talk and learn for many
years. I used to think it was important to have a place where
anybody could say anything and not be censored.

I still like the idea but the practical result was that in the late
90s a lot of people showed up who had no respect or
consideration for anybody and every thread was instantly
hijacked and filled with brain foam and bullshit.

It became useless as a place to talk about anything.

Then I came over here and it was great - a place for chit chat
and places for trying carry on a conversation and stay within
visual range of some topic and some moderation to keep it
on track. There was still some topic drift and one liners and
clashes but the topical forums worked pretty well.

There does seem to be a need for something like talkback
where people can hang out and talk about nothing in particular.

I didn't go over there much, it wasn't very interesting to me
and I couldn't even keep up with a small number of topical
forums with periodic scans of the other ones.

I'm just stepping back in after a 3 month phase of otherness
so I missed the specifics that lead to this, but I gather that
some people were pissing in the well that we're all trying to
drink out of?


I really agree with Sangiro's effort to create community and
I hope he's not getting discouraged by whatever's going on.

I think it's been a really worthwhile effort. A jump only lasts
3 or 4 minutes but the community goes on all week.

Skr

[tunaplanet 0]

ROFL!

Ummm, not even sure where to begin in regards to your education on law. You're not just missing the boat, you missed the entire ocean.

Forty-two

[Thanatos340 1]

The Bottom line here is that we are Guests in HH`s house. He can make whatever rules he wants and change them anytime he feels like it. He doesn’t have to be fair or unbiased (although it seems he usually is else this site would not have grown into what it is). If you disagree, Start your own site and make your own rules.

I always looked at Talkback like a Virtual Bon-Fire after a day of jumping. Everyone sitting around babbling about whatever. It was a Place to meet others and socialize. If you had something to say Skydiving related, there was some other appropriate forum for it. I hope he decides to bring it back (soon too, I am getting way too much done at work lately and the boss might catch on and actually expect me to keep this up. Lol!!)

$20 for the right to Post in Talkback?? Sounds reasonable to me.
Status in Talkback based on how much you donate? Sounds like a good plan.
Keep Talkback open for everyone to view but only people who help support the site get the right to post in Talkback. This should keep the advertisers happy and generate some additional income for the site.

[mailin 0]

Seeing as I try my best to stay ontopic in non talkback type forums I am being hypocritical... but I have to ask this:

Why do you always feel the need to degrade someones opinion? I see it in the majority of posts you make and wonder why you consider it to be constructive?

Arianna Frances

[stateofnature 0]

Look, if you want more altitude, you have to flash the pilot right...just apply that here girls. If you really want talkback back, start sending your photos.

I'll review them first
[email protected]

LOL

[Keith 0]

No body glued your ass to your desk chair. Don't like it? Leave!

Keith

Don't Fuck with me Keith - J. Mandeville