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Adamkrum

class III medical question in relation to DUI

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JFish

Psych evals??? None of us would be allowed anywhere near a plane, regardless of whether there was someone else strapped to us or not :)



Exactly! :ph34r:
"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

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I think what you fail to understand is that there is no expiration date on my USPA Master's license, nor is there on my USPA Jumpmaster's rating.... and if I produce those to the administration as proof of compliance with the FAR as having been "issued" as per the what the law reads in 105, they will, and they have and they continue to accept them.

So it still stands under the US FAA FAR's it is 100% legal for a strong or vector or racer/other mfg rated person to have never taken the new USPA tdm rating, and not carry a current class 3 medical.... can go jump tandem skydives all day long at a non USPA dz and it is totally legal as far as the FAA is concerned.
you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

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If we want to go by literal meanings in the FAR, if I borrowed some else's D license would I meet the license requirement under the FAR? After all, it just states that I have to hold a license (and if it is in my hand I am "holding" it), it doesn't say it has to have my name printed on the front of the license.

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Nice try... then you could get charged with a felony for presenting false documents to the FAA and or lying to them, not real smart. However that said, sorry you can't seem to handle the facts are what they are and every thing I've said and posted is in fact legal and compliant with the FAR.
you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

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I wouldn't be presenting a false document, it is a real license. I also wouldn't lie to them, I would tell them that this isn't my license. Could you please show me where in the FAR it says the license must be in my name?

Or maybe you are saying that the phrase "holds a license" implies that the license must be your license? Kind of in the same way that I am saying that it also implies that the license must be valid?

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peek

***The USPA appears to disagree with you, from the USPA website: B. General conditions for licenses 1. USPA licenses are valid only while the holder is a current regular USPA member; there is no other renewal requirement.



Sec. 105.45 lists the things that the FAA wants the tandem parachutist in command to have earned, or qualifications to have. I would interpret that (assuming that my interpretation holds any weight) to mean that once the master parachutist license had been earned, that this qualifies the person to be a parachutist in command.
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Actually, no USPA member now holds a "valid" or current master parachutist license, because the names "master", etc., were eliminated from the license descriptions some years ago.



Umm, I am looking at my D license (320) issued in 1963 by the PCA, the father of USPA and it says expert. Nowhere does it say Master. What's up with this Master shit??

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1888

******The USPA appears to disagree with you, from the USPA website: B. General conditions for licenses 1. USPA licenses are valid only while the holder is a current regular USPA member; there is no other renewal requirement.



Sec. 105.45 lists the things that the FAA wants the tandem parachutist in command to have earned, or qualifications to have. I would interpret that (assuming that my interpretation holds any weight) to mean that once the master parachutist license had been earned, that this qualifies the person to be a parachutist in command.
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Actually, no USPA member now holds a "valid" or current master parachutist license, because the names "master", etc., were eliminated from the license descriptions some years ago.



Umm, I am looking at my D license (320) issued in 1963 by the PCA, the father of USPA and it says expert. Nowhere does it say Master. What's up with this Master shit??

Sorry, I don't know the history of all of that. Much of it has to do with how many jumps people used to have compared to now.

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However that said, sorry you can't seem to handle the facts are what they are and every thing I've said and posted is in fact legal and compliant with the FAR.



As with all things FAA, the answer is probably going to vary FSDO to FSDO. If you are really concerned with getting a final answer, you need to write a letter asking for clarification to the FAA General Counsel.

I suspect you might not like the answer you get.

- Dan G

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If you are really concerned with getting a final answer, you need to write a letter asking for clarification to the FAA General Counsel.

I suspect you might not like the answer you get.



Maybe you didn't seem to understand, I have the answer, it's pretty clearly written in the FAR's. I have presented my documents a number of times to a number of FSDO's in my 30 + yrs all across this country, both as a active member of USPA and as a non active member. All of my instructional and my Pro ratings were considered valid and "issued" to me by the FAA. Even on a few ramp checks on at Demo's when I had not been a USPA member for years.

The fact is the same applies to tandems. I don't have to be a USPA member. I don't have to hold a USPA tandem rating and I don't need any medical in order to be LEGAL to make a tandem skydive in the USA!

What I do need is 3yrs in the sport, 500 jumps with a ram air, an "issued" masters license and able to prove I to took a MFG course or a course acceptable to the Administrator. (FAA) and be certified by the appropriate parachute manufacturer or tandem course provider as being properly trained on the use of the specific tandem parachute system to be used...... And that is all.

My experience and years in the sport along with my strong mfg rating meets all of those requirements, end of story.

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§105.45 Use of tandem parachute systems.

(a) No person may conduct a parachute operation using a tandem parachute system, and no pilot in command of an aircraft may allow any person to conduct a parachute operation from that aircraft using a tandem parachute system, unless—

(1) One of the parachutists using the tandem parachute system is the parachutist in command, and meets the following requirements:

(i) Has a minimum of 3 years of experience in parachuting, and must provide documentation that the parachutist—

(ii) Has completed a minimum of 500 freefall parachute jumps using a ram-air parachute, and

(iii) Holds a master parachute license issued by an organization recognized by the FAA, and

(iv) Has successfully completed a tandem instructor course given by the manufacturer of the tandem parachute system used in the parachute operation or a course acceptable to the Administrator.

(v) Has been certified by the appropriate parachute manufacturer or tandem course provider as being properly trained on the use of the specific tandem parachute system to be used.


you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

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I have presented my documents a number of times to a number of FSDO's in my 30 + yrs all across this country, both as a active member of USPA and as a non active member.



Just to be clear, you've presented your expired USPA license to an FAA official after being ramp checked while doing tandems?

Demos and tandems aren't the same.

- Dan G

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Yep and not only that I presented them as a member and after my membership expired for the yr. to FAA when dealing with the FSDO or inspectors in the field and I have presented my PRO card on ramp checks on demo's, without being a current member.... and you know what.

They don't give a fuck if I'm a current USPA member or not when presenting those documents, as long as I'm following the FAR's and prove I meet the requirements in the FAR's they could care less if I belong to a trade group or not, they have never asked to see my USPA membership card to check for a date on it.

Couple key words you two can't seem to grasp is "issued" and "acceptable to the Administrator."
you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

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Yep and not only that I presented them as a member and after my membership expired for the yr. to FAA...



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...they have never asked to see my USPA membership card to check for a date on it.



These two statements are in conflict. Either you presented an expired card or you didn't.

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Couple key words you two can't seem to grasp is "issued" and "acceptable to the Administrator."



And the word you can't seem to grasp is "Holds"

- Dan G

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I understand the words issued and acceptable to the administrator, do you understand the word "holds"? You can't choose to focus on the words that helps your argument and ignore the words that don't support your position. As I've said before, the word hold implies that the license is valid (p.s. I'm still waiting for a response on why the license has to be in my name to satisfy the requirements).

As far as the license being accepted in the past, maybe the FSDO didn't know that the license is only valid if you have a current USPA membership. I bet if when asked for your license you replied "here is my license, but it isn't valid" you would receive a different response. Just because something has been accepted doesn't mean that it is legal. When one of my friends was younger he used to use his brother's ID to buy beer, just because the clerk at the liquor store accepted it doesn't mean that what he was doing was legally acceptable.

A lot of times you can get away with things for quite a while even if it isn't legal. When you end up getting caught the excuse "they've accepted it in the past" usually doesn't carry much weight.

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JFish

If we want to go by literal meanings in the FAR, if I borrowed some else's D license would I meet the license requirement under the FAR? After all, it just states that I have to hold a license (and if it is in my hand I am "holding" it), it doesn't say it has to have my name printed on the front of the license.




lmao... "your Honor I was 'holding' a license!"

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as being properly trained



The gerund 'being' indicates present participle. If it said "having been trained", or "trained" you might have a valid argument that an event that occurred in the past satisfies the requirement.

I imagine the FAA used the present participle to handle changes in training requirements by the manufacturer.

30 years ago, I was trained as a Water Safety Instructor by the Red Cross. I don't believe many people would consider me as currently being properly trained as a lifeguard.
For the same reason I jump off a perfectly good diving board.

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chemist

***If we want to go by literal meanings in the FAR, if I borrowed some else's D license would I meet the license requirement under the FAR? After all, it just states that I have to hold a license (and if it is in my hand I am "holding" it), it doesn't say it has to have my name printed on the front of the license.




lmao... "your Honor I was 'holding' a license!"

I would never end up in front of a judge, I never do anything wrong :)

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I find this entire thread very interesting. I have a current class C license from the USPA. Years ago I stopped skydiving and when I came back I payed the yearly dues to become a current member with the USPA and I was issued a class C membership license. The same class I held before. It was my understanding that I am paying my dues to be a member for the benefits that is included with a current membership. I was never denied to skydive from an airplane unless the Drop Zone required a current license and of course from the FAA standpoint of the FAR's like reserve in date, VFR rules and so on. Heck, I was the one to update my USPA to be current just for Boogies that required one. It was never taboo to jump a specific manufactures container or canopy because I didn't or wasn't currently holding a membership. I do like the benefits such as insurance in case something happens to the plane or "third Party" which I do know has been a financial burden for jumpers without. It just seems to me that you need to follow the FAR's to the letter, or wording, and also understand the USPA's Sim and try to interpret both.

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do you understand the word "holds"?



Two types of "hold". The first being that in the data base at USPA under my name and license number, that license is held or on hold for me. It is never issued to anyone else, if I let membership expire, even for yrs. When I renew my membership I'm not issued a new license, because my license is held in place for me in the archives , it was issued to me and on the back of it is all my info that matches my DL and other ratings, like my pro card, making harder to hand the FAA or others someone else's shit, but I do know people who would do that and have done that.

The second type of hold is, as in I'm holding on to it, my license, that was issued to me, so that I can present to the required people as proof of having or holding those licenses, regardless of my membership status. The fact the USPA don't consider my license or ratings valid unless I send them money, has nothing to do with the fact that I hold in the archives records of USPA that license of issue. If I stop skydiving and leave the sport I will hold on those license cards, for one you can't them any more and two, they were "issued to me and I hold them" for life, they will not reissued to anyone else.

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As far as the license being accepted in the past, maybe the FSDO didn't know that the license is only valid if you have a current USPA membership.



And those licenses and ratings are ONLY valid on USPA group member dropzones. And I don't need them in order to comply with the FAR's under US law. The fact of the matter is the FAA can not legally require me by law to join a third party non regulatory non binding trade group who has no legal powers to enforce federal aviation laws in an aviation activity, in order to comply with an FAR.
you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

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Regarding the definitions you chosen to use:

1. Just because something in on hold for you doesn't mean that you hold it. As an example, my drivers license number will never again be used by the province that I live in, that doesn't mean that I hold the license for life, it just means that they won't ever use the number for anyone else.

2. You are using the definition of having it physically in your possession. As I have stated previously, having it physically in your possession doesn't satisfy the requirements. There are certain assumptions in the phrase "holds a license", one of which would be that the license is valid. In the same way that you are assuming that the license has to be issued to you (nowhere in the FAR does it state that), I am assuming that the license needs to be valid in order for you to hold the license.

I think if presented with this question, the FAA would agree with me.

[Quote]And those licenses and ratings are ONLY valid on USPA group member dropzones. And I don't need them in order to comply with the FAR's under US law.

I'm not understanding this point, you are saying you don't need a license in order to comply with this FAR? It specifically says that you need to hold the license in the FAR.

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I am not a TI, I have no dog in this fight. I am just a pilot, giving my opinion...

This is quite the circlejerk, but I think strato is correct. You will hold your DL until it expires, so because it has an expiration it is a straw man arguement. A skydiving license has no expiration.

Looking at another FAA situation: I will always hold an ATPL regardless of my currency or medical status. Of course for me to be PIC I would need to have a valid medical, but only because it says that in the FAR. As far as I have seen, there is nothing in the FAR that says a medical is required to be a TI.

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Although there is no expiration date printed on the license, given the fact that it states that the license is only valid with a USPA membership I would say the license expires when your USPA membership does.

You are right about us going in circles. I've made the points I want to make, unless someone adds something new to the discussion I'm going to leave this thread alone.

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I'm not understanding this point, you are saying you don't need a license in order to comply with this FAR? It specifically says that you need to hold the license in the FAR.



It's real simple. The USPA is not a regulatory body, they have no legal enforcement of law when it comes to regulation of skydiving. Those licenses and ratings, are only valid on group member dropzones, I own a private airport for skydiving only, it's not a USPA group member and when you walk in off the street and present me those licenses and ratings they dont' mean diddly shit and are not worth the paper they are written on. I'm under no legal reason to honor them or accept them, or your USPA membership in order to comply with federal law. And the fact of the matter is the FAA can not force me or you or anyone to join a third party trade group and force me to have membership in it in order to comply.

As said before, as the FAR is written, it says I must hold and have been issued a masters license. No where in there did say I must also be a member of that issuing body. Again, my license, when I let my membership expire, will still be held by me, under my name and license number in data base of USPA, it will not ever be issued to anyone else, it was issued to me. Come back to the sport 15 yrs later and guess what, you get the same license as issued to you from day one. Now why is that? Because it is held by me when issued.

There for it is not an FAR violation of 105.45 to jump a tandem if your USPA membership is expired, as long as you meet the FAR requirements, of having been issued and holding a masters license. And you can do so without a class 3 medical too, even if you have DUI's.
you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

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